Official Survival of the Fittest 2015 Thread

[jordidebaas]

I don't think Styles is winning the title, and I don't think he's losing clean either, so I think either 3-way or else some horrible overbooked screwy finish that will be acceptable only to Joeism.

monster mafia will probably like it too.

[Thelone]

I don't think Styles is winning the title, and I don't think he's losing clean either, so I think either 3-way or else some horrible overbooked screwy finish that will be acceptable only to Joeism.

Oh I don't either, but that's the issue with this match as it is right now. I might be the only one, but I have zero interest in this match because I already know what's going to happen either way.

[monster mafia]

I don't think Styles is winning the title, and I don't think he's losing clean either, so I think either 3-way or else some horrible overbooked screwy finish that will be acceptable only to Joeism.

monster mafia will probably like it too.

why me???

i think that lethal is going to retain clean,that would be the best option

styles as roh champion..amazing,but he is not under contract and lethal is just an awesome champion

any other finish in roh mania would be sad..

[JTCole]

Isn't Styles New Japan contract up in January?

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

I'm with Burnside. No contract=no title. Lethal retains in a fuck finish because Delirious has problems with his heel champ consistently winning in a convincing fashion. We all hate it besides Joeism (thanks Burnside). I mean don't you think some higher ups from Sinclair saw the AAA fuck up and said, "Glad that's not us, and Lizard Man, don't let it be us."

[The Dragon Saga]

If they can make the finish memorable and Styles gets screwed, that's fine by me. Have something big happen though, like Lethal gets DQ'd, he and Styles brawl, turns into the HOT and Bullet Club brawling and, I don't know, someone like Austin Aries or Low-Ki comes out from the crowd and takes Lethal and Styles out and holds the ROH World title above their heads. That would make for a memorable ending at least.

I can see Styles winning the title and holding it until the ROH Japan show, maybe even longer.

But, I can also see Lethal beating Styles. I don't think New Japan would have a problem with Styles losing to ROH's top guy especially when if Styles beats Nakamura, he'll look strong anyway and they have already planted the seeds for Lethal/Nakamura after Field of Honor. I think some of you look waaaay too into, "New Japan won't let AJ lose", ROH is different from some indie somewhere nobody knows. Lethal's been built enough that he's credible to take a loss to.

[DBSommer]

I'm with Burnside. No contract=no title. Lethal retains in a fuck finish because Delirious has problems with his heel champ consistently winning in a convincing fashion. We all hate it besides Joeism (thanks Burnside). I mean don't you think some higher ups from Sinclair saw the AAA fuck up and said, "Glad that's not us, and Lizard Man, don't let it be us."

Actually you would think since the last guy that did that to you is now back with the promotion that might be a more pertinent reminder.

OTOH, I don't think it would be impossible to draw up a 'title specific' contract that says 'you can have the title, but have to drop it at the first available opportunity with us before you can sign with another promotion' if you were really determined to have a guy as champ even though he doesn't have a long term contract.

[Northwoods_Nightmare]

I think this is very unlikely, but a scenario I haven't seen yet.
Lethal beats Styles, Styles beats Nakamura, sets up Lethal vs Nakamura.

I also think the outcome of Styles vs Nakamura could be a factor. If Styles is going to lose to Nakamura, maybe they wouldn't mind him losing to Lethal.

[Burnside]

I kinda think Styles is not losing to Nakamura though.

[JigsawVs.Jason]

But, I can also see Lethal beating Styles. I don't think New Japan would have a problem with Styles losing to ROH's top guy especially when if Styles beats Nakamura, he'll look strong anyway and they have already planted the seeds for Lethal/Nakamura after Field of Honor. I think some of you look waaaay too into, "New Japan won't let AJ lose", ROH is different from some indie somewhere nobody knows. Lethal's been built enough that he's credible to take a loss to.

I agree with this!
If Delirious hasn't got the guts to book a clean finish at the biggest show of the year, he has to go, plain and simple. And yes, that includes a fuck finish because NJPW won't allow Styles to lose. If NJPW doesn't want that, than Delirious should never have booked the match, that's his job to think in advance what might be the perfect main event that is also able to live up to expectations. He should be aware of the fact that all ROH fans will shit all over a fuck finish at the biggest show of the year, and rightfully so.
I have been defending Delirious for a long time and I still believe the ASE finish was very good to set up Cole/Kyle and the eventual Lethal/Kyle title change next year. But, in no shape or form should the main event of the biggest show of the year have a fuck finish with a lot of overbooking, we already had that at the anniversary show and it sucked big time. If Delirious has not learned from this mistake he might not be the right man to book ROH.
The reason why I think it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that Lethal retains cleanly is the fact that Styles won't be a major champion in NJPW until the Tokyo Dome Show (assuming he beats Nakamura). Given the fact they have recently strengthened their relationship gives me hope Styles can drop a fall in a clean way.
And no, Styles winning would not be an acceptable option after the 2 years of gradually establishing Lethal as one of the world's elite. Reserv that push that is attached to beating him for the belt for somebody that has a long-term future in ROH.

[jordidebaas]

And no, Styles winning would not be an acceptable option after the 2 years of gradually establishing Lethal as one of the world's elite. Reserv that push that is attached to beating him for the belt for somebody that has a long-term future in ROH.

You could say exactly the same about beating Styles for the world title though

[Big Red Machine]

But, I can also see Lethal beating Styles. I don't think New Japan would have a problem with Styles losing to ROH's top guy especially when if Styles beats Nakamura, he'll look strong anyway and they have already planted the seeds for Lethal/Nakamura after Field of Honor. I think some of you look waaaay too into, "New Japan won't let AJ lose", ROH is different from some indie somewhere nobody knows. Lethal's been built enough that he's credible to take a loss to.

I agree with this!
If Delirious hasn't got the guts to book a clean finish at the biggest show of the year, he has to go, plain and simple. And yes, that includes a fuck finish because NJPW won't allow Styles to lose. If NJPW doesn't want that, than Delirious should never have booked the match, that's his job to think in advance what might be the perfect main event that is also able to live up to expectations. He should be aware of the fact that all ROH fans will shit all over a fuck finish at the biggest show of the year, and rightfully so.
I have been defending Delirious for a long time and I still believe the ASE finish was very good to set up Cole/Kyle and the eventual Lethal/Kyle title change next year. But, in no shape or form should the main event of the biggest show of the year have a fuck finish with a lot of overbooking, we already had that at the anniversary show and it sucked big time. If Delirious has not learned from this mistake he might not be the right man to book ROH.
The reason why I think it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that Lethal retains cleanly is the fact that Styles won't be a major champion in NJPW until the Tokyo Dome Show (assuming he beats Nakamura). Given the fact they have recently strengthened their relationship gives me hope Styles can drop a fall in a clean way.
And no, Styles winning would not be an acceptable option after the 2 years of gradually establishing Lethal as one of the world's elite. Reserv that push that is attached to beating him for the belt for somebody that has a long-term future in ROH.

I see your point about the problem with Lethal losing, and that is 100% a result of Delirious' poor booking. Assuming he loses the belt at Final Battle, Jay Lethal will have had a six-month long reign as ROH World Champion. His title defense against AJ will be just his FOURTH title defense in six months. Austin Aries had nine title defenses in ROH his first reign (which is a similar length), and that was when ROH was running a lot less frequently. Lethal's four will be the same amount that XAVIER had in a similar period of time, and not only was that back in the days when ROH was only running one show a month, but the gimmick of Xavier's title reign was that he would do whatever he could to avoid defending the belt. Most other champions average out to at least once a month.
And it's not like the problem was being the TV Champion at the same time because 1) not counting ASE when both belts were defended, Lethal only defended the TV Title three times after becoming a double champion... and 2) that shouldn't even matter because when he opted to keep both belts, Nigel warned him that he might have to defend them both on the same night, so they could have done it more often.
The problem is simply that Delirious wasted time doing absolutely nothing with Lethal on house shows where it would have made perfect sense for him to defend the title. If you're going to do the Champions vs. All-Stars match at Glory By Honor, then why book all three champions against three of your top guys in Atlanta. Why not have Lethal defend the title their? Or the California, PA show? Or Hopkins? What was the point of continuing the Lethal vs. Briscoe feud at all if you weren't ever going to give Jay a rematch? You had Jay's rematch, you had a very easy to build program with Rowe (Lethal cheated to beat him in Collinsville right before Lethal won the world title) which would make perfect sense to book for Atlanta since War Machine were about to go away to Japan right after that, and all you have to do is do some match in either Atlanta or Dearborn or Chicago with the winner getting a title shot in California, and then do something SOTF weekend where someone who has been on hot streak gets a visual pin on Lethal and use that to set up a title defense in Florida. That's four more title defenses that would at least get you to a respectable eight. Lethal's reign doesn't feel special in any way because, quite simply, there wasn't much going on, and that's not how you book a champion if you are trying to make him one of your top guys for a long time to come.

Causes aside, the problem you mentioned is still an issue, and I really can't think of anything they could do to fix it aside from have Lethal beat AJ clean.

[Thelone]

I really don't have a problem with the low number of title defenses and that's something people should get used to in the future, just like house shows meaning less and less. Since BITW, the only title defense that happened outside of TV/(i)PPV is the Kingdom vs. reDRagon match at SOTF.

The thing is though, every defense should feel important then and that's hardly been the case. Both Lethal vs. Strong world title matches didn't feel big (doesn't matter how hard ROH is trying to make this rivalry the new Punk vs. Joe) because you knew Lethal wasn't losing so soon and same thing with the O'Reilly match despite the "Lethal must defend both titles" wackyness. Most TV title matches felt like routine defenses outside of the Fish and Strong matches, and the Kingdom is utter shit so nothing they do feels significant.

[Big Red Machine]

I really don't have a problem with the low number of title defenses and that's something people should get used to in the future, just like house shows meaning less and less. Since BITW, the only title defense that happened outside of TV/(i)PPV is the Kingdom vs. reDRagon match at SOTF.


The thing is though, every defense should feel important then and that's hardly been the case. Both Lethal vs. Strong world title matches didn't feel big (doesn't matter how hard ROH is trying to make this rivalry the new Punk vs. Joe) because you knew Lethal wasn't losing so soon and same thing with the O'Reilly match despite the "Lethal must defend both titles" wackyness. Most TV title matches felt like routine defenses outside of the Fish and Strong matches, and the Kingdom is utter shit so nothing they do feels significant.

The difference between the tag division and the world title has been that at least the tag division felt busy. The Bucks were chasing the belts and the Kingdom earned a title shot and they had the title defense against Cole and O'Reilly, which, when combined with the title match at DBD kind of made it feel like reDRagon were still in the title picture. It felt like stuff was happening.
With Lethal (like with Briscoe before him), it feels like there is only one title chase going on at a time, and there was rarely any advancement going on, either on TV or house shows, so it felt like nothing was happening. Compare that to champs like Dragon or Nigel or Roddy or Aries and it looks ridiculous to call this guy a world champion. Even Cole had Steen, Briscoe, Elgin, and Hero all as viable contenders at pretty much the same time. It's been six months, and it feels like Lethal has barely done anything.

I don't agree that every single title defense has to feel "big." There should be something going it, whether it's as simple as a guy on a winning streak or a guy winning a battle royale at the previous show, but it needs to be something that feels like a story. The reason those "multi-man match for a title shot later tonight" or "instant reward Proving Ground" matches that Delirious likes to do don't work is because they never feel like a real story that has built in any way. This is where the house shows can really help out, and the fact that they aren't being used to do so is silly. If you're going to run them and try to sell them, you might as well book them in a way that encourages people to buy them.

I also think that Delirious isn't particularly good at making his title defenses feel big. Obviously the PPV ones do, but there are been a whole bunch of other situations where a bit more of a push on commentary would have made something feel bigger. A great example of this is Bobby Fish's title shot against Jay Briscoe this may. The reason for this match was that Fish had been the last person to beat Jay before his un-pinned, un-submitted streak started. The problem is that this fact was never even mentioned once in the entire year-plus that they were pushing Jay's streak for. If they had noted on commentary that Fish had been the last guy to beat Briscoe (maybe even book a Briscoes vs. reDRagon match at some point where they could have actually pushed that), then when they finally announced the title match, it would have felt bigger. I don't think most people realized that Fish had been the last guy to pin Jay before they mentioned it in the article on the website announcing the match. I know I sure didn't, and I have a very good memory for random things like this. Same could be said for Hanson's TV Title shot in Baltimore. I don't think they even mentioned the fact that Hanson had pinned Lethal cleanly at SOTF eight months prior until the match was announced.

I think that, with better booking, the stuff the Kingdom are doing COULD feel significant. ANX and the Addiction should both feel like top contenders right now. They brought ANX back at the PPV, put them over the freakin' Briscoes and have them do the whole ""we're the rightful linear champions thing"... and they just start jobbing them out before they even get a title shot to restore the lineage of the belt. Same with the Addiction: They come out all angry that they lost their titles without even getting pinned... and Delirious jobs them out to the Briscoes? The obvious direction for Final Battle coming off of the last PPV should have been either Kingdom vs. ANX vs. Addiction in an Elimination Match or Kingdom vs. ANX in a regular tag match with Addiction get their shot separately on TV leading up to the show (like they did in Kalamazoo). If you're not going in one of those two directions for Final Battle, then what's the point of even bringing ANX back? Or of doing the segments they've done (both on TV and at Reloaded Tour: California) with The Addiction complaining about the way they lost their titles.
Instead were getting Kingdom vs. a team that has spent most the year doing nothing.
There are things that Delirious COULD be doing to make the Kingdom's reign feel like something is happening, but he is squandering these opportunities with his bad booking.