Official Survival of the Fittest 2015 Thread

[TYFDK]

There's no way that Honor Rumble thing happens. At the earliest, the first episode of the Nashville tapings will air the first week of December - two weeks before Final Battle. That's just not going to happen.

But if it does, my money's on Ferrara.

[DXvsNWO1994]

I still think a 3rd guy is getting added to the FB match. Maybe an Honor Rumble in Nashville next week.

[Big Red Machine]

I still think a 3rd guy is getting added to the FB match. Maybe an Honor Rumble in Nashville next week.

You're just trolling us at this point, right?

[Thelone]

If the idea is Elgin vs. Lethal at the Dome (I doubt it, but let's pretend), they still have to find a way to "beat" Styles without actually beating him. They can't do a draw on regular PPV because it would be so telegraphed ("hmm, 9:50 and already the main event ?") and I can barely imagine the backlash if they do another overbooked finish in a PPV main event.

Imo, they need to make this match a 3-way at this point to make it unpredictable. Right now, it's either #LOLStylesWins or some goofy finish where Lethal retains somehow that everyone will be shitting all over for weeks. That's coming from a guy who hates multi-man matches to "protect" people by the way.

[187_Joeism]

Or New Japan wants to use Lethal and don´t care if he beat Styles like Elgin did in the past. Lethal beating Styles and then having a title defense at the Dome is a great way to introduce Lethal.

If they are doing the match is because they can have Lethal beat Styles or because they want to give Styles the title, that´s logic.

[DBSommer]

I still think a 3rd guy is getting added to the FB match. Maybe an Honor Rumble in Nashville next week.

It's Ferrara's time.

Useless Trivia: Actually Ferrara got a TV Title shot thanks to the Honor Rumble in West Virginia last year. He eliminated Lethal at the Honor Rumble, so Lethal wanted a measure of revenge and let him have the TV Title shot an hour later... I mean a week later.

[WHG]

To me the biggest issue with the Final Battle main event is that the Lethal/Elgin and Nakamura/Styles matches make it obvious that Styles isn't winning.

I'm still not sure why nobody believes that Styles can't lose to Lethal. They had planned to have Briscoe/Styles main event the 13th Anniversary Show, but had to scrap it because Styles won the IWGP title in Feb and couldn't lose while he was the champion. To me, that says that they had the go ahead to beat him if he didn't have the title. The parallel thinking also seems to be that Lethal can't possibly be on the Dome card because people don't know him, but if you think about the two issues, a quick video package of Lethal beating Styles gives him instant credibility...so both happening kind of makes sense given the other.

To me, this clearly looks like them sneaking in the title shot that they've had to uncomfortably avoid giving AJ this whole run precisely during the gap in which he isn't a New Japan titleholder.

I'm getting ahead of myself, but what if the idea is that Lethal beats Styles at FB (which I think is happening) and Styles wins the IC title at the Dome (also a likely outcome)? Now, Lethal claims supremacy over Nakamura based on those results. Add that to their history from over the Summer and Nakamura challenges Lethal for the ROH title in February. Would giving Nakamura an ROH title run through May be out of the question? He's the most over guy at every ROH show he's been on and would add to the legacy of the title and make the Anniversary Show and May tour a lot more interesting. It also gives him something to do/defend in Japan if he's out of the title pictures there for the time being. I'm not predicting any of this, but I don't think it's too crazy a thought.

[Burnside]

I'll believe AJ can lose in Ring of Honor when I see it. Not saying it's an impossibility, just that I'll believe it when I see it and not before.

Bringing up that Michael Elgin pinned him in early 2014 does not impress me as relevant at this point.

[Wilson]

If an ROH match is taking place is taking place at WK, it'll probably be without a major World Title match. ROH most likely does not view Lethal/Elgin as a lower card matchup on any card if there are World Title implications. ROH might instead use Lethal or Elgin in a mixed tag team match or where Lethal defends against Captain New Japan or something else to that effect.

It's unprecedented so far, but I can certainly imagine Styles losing to an ROH guy if said person was their World champion and had been protectively booked for a matter of years. I highly doubt NJPW values Styles as much as Tanahashi, Okada, or Nakamura, who will all never be seen defeated in an ROH ring (to WHG--if Nakamura became ROH champion he would probably have to lose it without taking a fall, which would be awful to witness, personally). I think the ending of Final Battle will see Lethal as champion due to less than clean means--hopefully, it is booked without ROH's newfound fashion to utilize a screwy finish that does no one any favors. They can't do this on 3/4 of their PPVs this year.

Alberto losing in the semi-main event in his ROH PPV debut seemed like a larger improbability at the time. As a matter of fact, Jay Lethal may just be a fairly respected person within the industry at this point, more so than we would expect.

[Burnside]

Meltzer did report that Lethal defending the ROH title against Elgin was at least tentatively on the books for the Tokyo Dome. There's been no talk of Lethal defending against an undercard NJPW guy on that show.

As far as how NJPW values AJ in comparison to their other top guys, the answer is he's below Tanahashi and Okada but above Nakamura. You can argue they SHOULD value Nakamura more than AJ, but based on the booking for the past couple of years, they don't.

Alberto losing clean did seem unlikely, but to me AJ losing is less likely. With Alberto, we just failed to consider that AAA would be reckless enough to put their world title on a non-contracted talent over whom they had zero control. They're paying for that now. AAA couldn't prevent Alberto from jobbing in ROH, and they couldn't prevent him from leaving as champ to go to WWE without dropping the belt. Anybody who thinks it would be okay for ROH to put the world title on non-contracted AJ Styles should pay attention to what happened there.

[187_Joeism]

Difference is that i don´t think AJ would screw any company like Alberto did, not only AAA but he had a lot of problems in the indies of no-showing and stuff that AJ never had.

[Wilson]

Alberto taking a pinfall seemed impossible even before AAA had made their designs on him.

At the moment, Lethal beating Styles (in whatever hellish booking contrivance Delirious agrees upon that night) seems more likely than Styles winning the championship or another wrestler entering the fray given the timing.

It’s going to be a weird main event and I am not sure if I am willing to pay for something I feel so uncertain toward.

[Burnside]

Difference is that i don´t think AJ would screw any company like Alberto did, not only AAA but he had a lot of problems in the indies of no-showing and stuff that AJ never had.

It's not just AJ. You also have to have complete trust in New Japan.

[187_Joeism]

Difference is that i don´t think AJ would screw any company like Alberto did, not only AAA but he had a lot of problems in the indies of no-showing and stuff that AJ never had.

It's not just AJ. You also have to have complete trust in New Japan.

At this point with the working relationship they have they fully trust New Japan too.

[jordidebaas]

Imo, they need to make this match a 3-way at this point to make it unpredictable. Right now, it's either #LOLStylesWins or some goofy finish where Lethal retains somehow that everyone will be shitting all over for weeks. That's coming from a guy who hates multi-man matches to "protect" people by the way.

This makes absolutely zero sense. Right now, like you described, it's pretty much 50/50. How are you going to make it more predictable than that? The only reason they would add someone is to have him take the fall from Lethal, so adding someone would make the match as predictable as it can get.

[Burnside]

Difference is that i don´t think AJ would screw any company like Alberto did, not only AAA but he had a lot of problems in the indies of no-showing and stuff that AJ never had.

It's not just AJ. You also have to have complete trust in New Japan.

At this point with the working relationship they have they fully trust New Japan too.

Three months ago Jushin Liger was on an NXT show head-to-head with ROH in Brooklyn. You can pretend that wasn't a big "fuck you" to Ring of Honor, or that Liger did it on his own without NJPW approval (which is not the case), but it was.

I know NJPW has since apologized, and ROH apologized for not booking Watanabe for like 8 months and jobbing him mercilessly, and the relationship is good right now and that's great. But things can change really quickly. NJPW asked ROH not to let its guys work AAA, and Roddy and Moose worked AAA this month. What are the reasonable limits on "fully trust" in wrestling? The history of wrestling argues against "fully trust." People who ignore that get burned pretty regularly.

Putting your World Title on a guy under contract to somebody else, even a "partner", is not something I see any smart wrestling company doing in 2015.

[Thelone]

This makes absolutely zero sense. Right now, like you described, it's pretty much 50/50. How are you going to make it more predictable than that? The only reason they would add someone is to have him take the fall from Lethal, so adding someone would make the match as predictable as it can get.

Except it's not 50/50, I would say it's 99% #LOLStylesWins and 1% of Delirious being stupid enough to have another shitty finish in a PPV main event.

[Burnside]

I don't think Styles is winning the title, and I don't think he's losing clean either, so I think either 3-way or else some horrible overbooked screwy finish that will be acceptable only to Joeism.

[187_Joeism]

If Truth helps Lethal to win is not some screwy finish, i don´t think Lethal needs to beat AJ clean, specially if they are going to book another match with them in 2016.

If they book that (Truth helping Lethal) i think everyone will talk about how great the match was but the few people here that hates everything relate to ROH but still watch it.

[Burnside]

If Truth helps Lethal to win is not some screwy finish, i don´t think Lethal needs to beat AJ clean, specially if they are going to book another match with them in 2016.

If they book that (Truth helping Lethal) i think everyone will talk about how great the match was but the few people here that hates everything relate to ROH but still watch it.

No, this will be something screwier than that. The "hit him with the Book of Truth" finish would be lame, but not an outrage.

I'm thinking more like a billion people running in, and no pinfall at all on Styles.