I definitely agree with what you said here. O'Reilly's involvement in the Triple Threat has some merit, but he hasn't had enough big singles victories.TYFDK wrote: I can actually see where Joeism's coming from. Kyle was screwed over in his title match with Lethal. Kyle was screwed over in his grudge match with Cole. Instead of having individual rematches, Nigel combined the two problems O'Reilly was facing, and put them together. Cole getting a shot makes sense, too, because technically he beat Kyle at Final Battle.
But, I can see the side you and Thelone are on, as well. Kyle hasn't been made legitimate lately (although I think his work has been great) and thus should really work more for a shot. But I think if Kyle loses this match, he won't get another shot again. He'll likely face Cole in a big match at BITW.
Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
- DXvsNWO1994
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Hopefully they catch it and realize that and between now and the 7 shows until the PPV, put Kyle in winning predicaments in high profile matches.
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
A good booker could have addressed that problem at this taping, though. Before announcing O'Reilly is getting a world title shot despite not winning anything.TYFDK wrote:Hopefully they catch it and realize that and between now and the 7 shows until the PPV, put Kyle in winning predicaments in high profile matches.
Episode 1 - O'Reilly beats Michael Elgin clean in a 20-minute main event, then calls out Lethal. Lethal says O'Reilly hasn't earned a title shot. Nigel says true, but he can do so if he can beat Lethal in a non-title match next week.
Episode 2 - Cole beats Mark Briscoe. O'Reilly beats Lethal clean in a non-title match. Nigel announces O'Reilly has earned a shot at 14A. Cole interjects to point out he beat O'Reilly at FB, so Nigel adds him to the match.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Kyle beating Lethal on TV would be bad booking after all the good job they have done building Lethal when he can get the match just saying that Cole cost him his shot
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Kyle beating Lethal on TV would be an example of somebody earning a title shot by winning a match as opposed to just whining.187_Joeism wrote:Kyle beating Lethal on TV would be bad booking after all the good job they have done building Lethal when he can get the match just saying that Cole cost him his shot
It's not enough for Kyle to just say "Well, I didn't lose clean". When it comes to getting a world title shot, the question should be "Who did you beat? What did you win?" The answer can't be "Absolutely nothing. I haven't won any major singles matches in well over a year. Put me in the world title match in the main event of the next PPV." It just can't. You have to be a better booker than that.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
You can do the same thing with Kyle pinning Lethal in a tag team match, you don´t have to hurt Lethal making lose a singles match to elevate Kyle.
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
You have to do it when your back is against the wall because you've beaten O'Reilly like a drum for well over a year and now fans are supposed to believe he's a credible singles challenger for the world title.187_Joeism wrote:You can do the same thing with Kyle pinning Lethal in a tag team match, you don´t have to hurt Lethal making lose a singles match to elevate Kyle.
Losing a non-title match to the guy he's facing in the PPV main event is not going to hurt Lethal.
Winning a tag team match doesn't help get O'Reilly over enough as a singles guy. You are giving this guy a world title shot in what is, at worst, your 4th biggest show of the year. You can't give him ONE meaningful singles win first? Not one? You really don't think there's a booking flaw there?
This is example of you deciding you're going to love Ring of Honor no matter what, and if they book something badly you are going to flat out ignore that it's happening. I'm not trying to get you to dislike something that you enjoy - really, I'm not. But if you are going to willfully blind yourself to every single flaw and just deny that there are any problems at all it makes your views hard to take seriously.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
I don´t think Kyle it´s a credible world title contender right now, he is just there in the ME to help balance the face-heel dynamic in the match and it´s the least possible wrestler in that match to win the world title and the match is happening because (I think) they couldn´t get their planned ME (Lethal vs Nakamura).
With that said, if you are not giving the title to Kyle, Why do you make him beat Lethal now and not after he beat Cole?
I don´t just love everything and flat out ignore, just don´t see the point in that. Fans are not going to stay quiet during the match because they are not building Kyle enough so you don´t have to pin Lethal just for the sake of it before the match.
For example i agree with you in that they could have booked Elgin vs Kyle and give Kyle a win there, i just don´t like having your world champ losing when it´s not totally necesary.
With that said, if you are not giving the title to Kyle, Why do you make him beat Lethal now and not after he beat Cole?
I don´t just love everything and flat out ignore, just don´t see the point in that. Fans are not going to stay quiet during the match because they are not building Kyle enough so you don´t have to pin Lethal just for the sake of it before the match.
For example i agree with you in that they could have booked Elgin vs Kyle and give Kyle a win there, i just don´t like having your world champ losing when it´s not totally necesary.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
ah the good old days when costing other guys matches and cheating to win was few and far between in ROH.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Take this for what it's worth, but Dave Meltzer noted in the most recent edition of Wrestling Observer Radio that he thinks we're going to see the ROH World Title change hands at The 14th Anniversary Show.
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Yeah, I would assume Cole's getting the belt as O'Reilly hasn't re-signed and Lethal's deal is almost up. The three-way is a vehicle to transition the belt to Cole without having to do heel vs heel. It makes sense in that respect. They just needed to put five minutes of thought into rehabbing O'Reilly first, but that was too much to ask.DXvsNWO1994 wrote:Take this for what it's worth, but Dave Meltzer noted in the most recent edition of Wrestling Observer Radio that he thinks we're going to see the ROH World Title change hands at The 14th Anniversary Show.
I wonder if they really did plan to do Lethal vs Nakamura on this show - what would have happened then? Maybe Nakamura actually would have won the belt, then dropped it to Cole in Tokyo?
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
If this true and Cole regains the belt (which I'm fine with), does Delirious build a new stable around him?
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Not sure. Also, it's not 100% certain that Taven is leaving (although it does seem likely).Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:If this true and Cole regains the belt (which I'm fine with), does Delirious build a new stable around him?
If they do go with a new top heel stable around Cole, the most likely candidates are probably Roddy and ANX.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Meltzer said in that same edition of Wrestling Observer Radio that he has the impression that Lethal & reDRagon weren't going anywhere, but he doesn't know for sure (again, take that for what it's worth). Alvarez also mentioned that, when he interviewed Lethal recently, he seemed like a guy who would go to WWE if given the right offer, but loves working with Ring of Honor (and now New Japan) at the moment.Burnside wrote:Yeah, I would assume Cole's getting the belt as O'Reilly hasn't re-signed and Lethal's deal is almost up. The three-way is a vehicle to transition the belt to Cole without having to do heel vs heel. It makes sense in that respect. They just needed to put five minutes of thought into rehabbing O'Reilly first, but that was too much to ask.DXvsNWO1994 wrote:Take this for what it's worth, but Dave Meltzer noted in the most recent edition of Wrestling Observer Radio that he thinks we're going to see the ROH World Title change hands at The 14th Anniversary Show.
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
I don't necessarily think Lethal and reDRagon are leaving. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say they are all staying. But, nevertheless, in 2016, the ROH belt doesn't belong on people who are not under contract, even if they are not necessarily planning to go anywhere. The Styles thing is an illustration of that. Not sure if you remember how, during the build to Final Battle, people on this board were talking about how it would be just fine to put the ROH title on Styles even though he was under contract to nobody because of the great, trusting relationships he had with ROH and NJPW. It's a business.DXvsNWO1994 wrote:Meltzer said in that same edition of Wrestling Observer Radio that he has the impression that Lethal & reDRagon weren't going anywhere, but he doesn't know for sure (again, take that for what it's worth). Alvarez also mentioned that, when he interviewed Lethal recently, he seemed like a guy who would go to WWE if given the right offer, but loves working with Ring of Honor (and now New Japan) at the moment.Burnside wrote:Yeah, I would assume Cole's getting the belt as O'Reilly hasn't re-signed and Lethal's deal is almost up. The three-way is a vehicle to transition the belt to Cole without having to do heel vs heel. It makes sense in that respect. They just needed to put five minutes of thought into rehabbing O'Reilly first, but that was too much to ask.DXvsNWO1994 wrote:Take this for what it's worth, but Dave Meltzer noted in the most recent edition of Wrestling Observer Radio that he thinks we're going to see the ROH World Title change hands at The 14th Anniversary Show.
Even if they're not super-interested in Jay Lethal, I can absolutely see WWE snapping him up just to screw with ROH if ROH is dumb enough to leave the belt on him if his contract lapses. He'll be on the next available episode of NXT jobbing to Balor in the main event. But I don't think ROH is that dumb.
If they can work out an extension with Lethal prior to March, then by all means keep the belt on him. Otherwise, got to take it off him.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Nakamura was staying with NJPW (Him leaving took everybody by surprise) so i guess the idea was to give Nakamura the belt, maybe keep him defending the belt in NJPW and ROH.Burnside wrote: I wonder if they really did plan to do Lethal vs Nakamura on this show - what would have happened then? Maybe Nakamura actually would have won the belt, then dropped it to Cole in Tokyo?
I think they are going to let Cole have the belt without a stable but they can have some Mount Rushmore stable with Roddy & Bucks or others if they want.Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:If this true and Cole regains the belt (which I'm fine with), does Delirious build a new stable around him?
Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
I don't see ROH putting the Bucks in a heel stable anytime soon. They are going to get cheered against any opponents they face with the possible exception of the Briscoes.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Yeah, I would assume Cole's getting the belt as O'Reilly hasn't re-signed and Lethal's deal is almost up. The three-way is a vehicle to transition the belt to Cole without having to do heel vs heel. It makes sense in that respect. They just needed to put five minutes of thought into rehabbing O'Reilly first, but that was too much to ask.Burnside wrote:
[/quote]
Meltzer said in that same edition of Wrestling Observer Radio that he has the impression that Lethal & reDRagon weren't going anywhere, but he doesn't know for sure (again, take that for what it's worth). Alvarez also mentioned that, when he interviewed Lethal recently, he seemed like a guy who would go to WWE if given the right offer, but loves working with Ring of Honor (and now New Japan) at the moment.[/quote]
I don't necessarily think Lethal and reDRagon are leaving. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say they are all staying. But, nevertheless, in 2016, the ROH belt doesn't belong on people who are not under contract, even if they are not necessarily planning to go anywhere. The Styles thing is an illustration of that. Not sure if you remember how, during the build to Final Battle, people on this board were talking about how it would be just fine to put the ROH title on Styles even though he was under contract to nobody because of the great, trusting relationships he had with ROH and NJPW. It's a business.
Even if they're not super-interested in Jay Lethal, I can absolutely see WWE snapping him up just to screw with ROH if ROH is dumb enough to leave the belt on him if his contract lapses. He'll be on the next available episode of NXT jobbing to Balor in the main event. But I don't think ROH is that dumb.
If they can work out an extension with Lethal prior to March, then by all means keep the belt on him. Otherwise, got to take it off him.[/quote]
Perfectly said. After the Alberto Del Rio situation, no promotion is going to be caught with their pants down. I don't know what the wrong term plans with Bennett/Taven were but the belts got taken off of them as quickly as they won them. If Del Rio can fuck over AAA, would any booker in their right mind do the same?
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that. The guys who are holding the titles should be under contracts.Burnside wrote: I don't necessarily think Lethal and reDRagon are leaving. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say they are all staying. But, nevertheless, in 2016, the ROH belt doesn't belong on people who are not under contract, even if they are not necessarily planning to go anywhere. The Styles thing is an illustration of that. Not sure if you remember how, during the build to Final Battle, people on this board were talking about how it would be just fine to put the ROH title on Styles even though he was under contract to nobody because of the great, trusting relationships he had with ROH and NJPW. It's a business.
Even if they're not super-interested in Jay Lethal, I can absolutely see WWE snapping him up just to screw with ROH if ROH is dumb enough to leave the belt on him if his contract lapses. He'll be on the next available episode of NXT jobbing to Balor in the main event. But I don't think ROH is that dumb.
If they can work out an extension with Lethal prior to March, then by all means keep the belt on him. Otherwise, got to take it off him.
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Re: Official Winter Warriors Tour 2016 (TV Tapings) Thread
They didn't announced anything, you know it because you read the spoilers.Burnside wrote:A good booker could have addressed that problem at this taping, though. Before announcing O'Reilly is getting a world title shot despite not winning anything.TYFDK wrote:Hopefully they catch it and realize that and between now and the 7 shows until the PPV, put Kyle in winning predicaments in high profile matches.
Delirious knows what happen during the next shows and when the episodes will ends up on TV.
Technically, he can score some big wins before they officially announce the match.