Grading Delirious as Head Booker

[TreeOfWHOA!]

^Tremendous username.

Really how much time does Delirious have left before he returns to the roster fulltime? Not that I'm looking foward to him losing the book though.

Thank you I always loved it when Prazak would say that cheesy line on commentary.

Davey Richards
Eddie Edwards
Rhett Titus
Kenny King

BUT FIRST - "These were all Gabe guys."

Sure. But Gabe didn't give them near the level of push that Pearce did. Pearce is the booker who molded their success, not Gabe.

To be far to Gabe though he didn't have the time to push Titus as he was still coming into his own and i'm sure if Gabe were around past mid 2008 he would have. King was not even a full time roster member in 2008 he was still a major part of the FIP roster during Gabes final days. I think Gabe was leading up to giving Richards and Edwards both big pushes not sure if they would have been a Tag Team if he was around for 2009. I think Richards gaining all the popularity that he did from 2009-Now is mostly on his part. Upping his intensity and work ethic from training in Japan.

Again I don't feel Pearce was a bad booker at all myself i just feel he didn't give the right pushes to the right guys at the right moments. Black comes to mind instantly, or he gave the wrong push to the wrong talent at the wrong time Lynn and Aries both come to mind. I understand what they were trying to accomplish by putting the title on both those guys. With Lynn he wanted to capture some of the emotion from the movie the Wrestler. And with Aries they needed to give the title picture some unpredictablity because up to that point there had never been a 2 time ROH Champion.

But at the sametime it wasn't what the hardcore ROH fans wanted to see. The fans really wanted Black to have the title around the time Lynn had won it. And by the time Aries had created a super heel character to be Blacks arch nemesis the fans had already grown tired of the idea of Black becoming Champion. And to be honest most fans were leaning more towards Richards by the time Black finally won the world title.

I still feel Delirious doesn't have full control of the booking. And Cornette has a ton of say in what goes on the booking has been fine. But let's face it isn't exactly lighting the wrestling world on fire either. I hate to sound cliche but with ROH having a new T.V show i'd love to find out what ideas Paul Heyman could come up with if ever given full control of a wrestling show again. < But thats more of a fantasy of mine and less what could actually happen in reality.

[syxxpakk]

To be far to Gabe though he didn't have the time to push Titus as he was still coming into his own and i'm sure if Gabe were around past mid 2008 he would have. King was not even a full time roster member in 2008 he was still a major part of the FIP roster during Gabes final days. I think Gabe was leading up to giving Richards and Edwards both big pushes not sure if they would have been a Tag Team if he was around for 2009. I think Richards gaining all the popularity that he did from 2009-Now is mostly on his part. Upping his intensity and work ethic from training in Japan.

As far as Gabe not being there to push them, that's irrelevant - and I mean no offense by that. The fact is, they received pushes under Pearce that they hadn't really received from Gabe. Hence, they're Pearce-bred stars - not Gabe-bred stars. You might could make an argument for Richards, but I think he became so much more under Pearce than he did under Gabe. Richards clicked more as an American Wolf than he did as a member of the NRC (which was still great regardless).

EDIT: And let me add, the original claim was that Pearce didn't create any stars. That's why I pointed those four out. He did, and those four are pretty much all attributable to him.

Again I don't feel Pearce was a bad booker at all myself i just feel he didn't give the right pushes to the right guys at the right moments. Black comes to mind instantly, or he gave the wrong push to the wrong talent at the wrong time Lynn and Aries both come to mind. I understand what they were trying to accomplish by putting the title on both those guys. With Lynn he wanted to capture some of the emotion from the movie the Wrestler. And with Aries they needed to give the title picture some unpredictablity because up to that point there had never been a 2 time ROH Champion.

I think the Lynn-booking was brilliant on Pearce's behalf and WAS the right person at the right time. I also liked Aries' run. The only time I think Pearce had misstep in that regard was not putting the belt on Black at Final Battle '09, but even then it's kind of understand.

But at the sametime it wasn't what the hardcore ROH fans wanted to see. The fans really wanted Black to have the title around the time Lynn had won it. And by the time Aries had created a super heel character to be Blacks arch nemesis the fans had already grown tired of the idea of Black becoming Champion. And to be honest most fans were leaning more towards Richards by the time Black finally won the world title.

I know a lot of hardcore fans who were enjoyed what he did with Lynn and who WEREN'T ready for Black. I think the big thing is there was a very vocal group of people who didn't that were louder than those who did. It's kind of like Cena in WWE. More fans like Cena than he's probably given credit for, if only because every now and again the anti-Cena fans are bit louder.

[icyhot]

I am a huge mark for Jerry Lynn and have been since he fueded with RVD in ECW and his X Divisions stuff in TNA and I really enjoyed his title reign. But I am a bit biased. Looking back on it, the way they presented Lynn up to the title run ( specifically the Randy the RAM comparisons) made him look weak and in hindsight I see it probably devalued the title some (what with a "washed up" wrestler being good enough to win the title). If they had just presented him as a legend from the early ROH, ECW and TNA stuff and his victory was just shown as an upset it could have worked. If he took the belt from Nigel then shortly lost the belt to Tyler, and Tyler had a short title reign before Aires, the whole "choking on the title match" thing wouldn't have been an issue and then the story would have been Tyler chasing Aires for six months other than being made to look weak because he couldn't win the title. Maybe the fans wouldn't have turned on Tyler and maybe the Lynn title reign wouldn't be remembered with such disdain by so many fans.

[WrestlingMatters]

@syxxpakk - You obviously haven't seen Gabe's shoot interview he did in November 2008. Gabe reavealed his booking plans that he already had written down in his big folder. He stated that the Wolves would be formed and given a huge push in early '09. He also said Davey would get a huge singles push and he planned to have Davey and Tyler (who he would of had win the title at Final Battle 2008) main event one of the hammerstein shows. Kenny King was also going to get a huge babyface push, although their weren't any concrete plans for Rhett. I think that Rhett Titus was the only young guy that Pearce could take credit in making.

[syxxpakk]

@syxxpakk - You obviously haven't seen Gabe's shoot interview he did in November 2008. Gabe reavealed his booking plans that he already had written down in his big folder. He stated that the Wolves would be formed and given a huge push in early '09. He also said Davey would get a huge singles push and he planned to have Davey and Tyler (who he would of had win the title at Final Battle 2008) main event one of the hammerstein shows. Kenny King was also going to get a huge babyface push, although their weren't any concrete plans for Rhett. I think that Rhett Titus was the only young guy that Pearce could take credit in making.

I've seen that. He didn't say he planned on forming the Wolves, but he did say that he'd give big pushes to Davey and Tyler. None of that makes a difference because he didn't, in his time as booker, initiate any big pushes for Eddie Edwards, Davey Richards, Rhett Titus, or Kenny King.

[WrestlingMatters]

He said he was gonna push Davey & Eddie as the big S&S tag team. My point is putting together Titus & King was the only thing he can take credit for in creating. Kenny King probably would have been a bigger star without having to carry Rhett for so long.

[syxxpakk]

He said he was gonna push Davey & Eddie as the big S&S tag team. My point is putting together Titus & King was the only thing he can take credit for in creating. Kenny King probably would have been a bigger star without having to carry Rhett for so long.

I don't think he said that at all, but I'm not willing to go through the trouble of reacquiring the thing to make sure. Adam Pearce put together Eddie and Davey, regardless, so ultimately it's attributable to him and only him. I mean, you could say Davey winning the belt is Adam's booking, not Delirious. But that's not the truth. Delirious booked Davey to win the title, not Pearce. Pearce booked Davey and Eddie together, turning them into mega-stars, not Gabe.

Also, whether Gabe might have booked Kenny better or not has no bearing on the issue.

[WrestlingMatters]

Davey & Eddie were teaming whether Pearce was given the job or not, it's on that DVD ask anyone else who has seen it. Pearce turned them into mega stars? their perfomances and chemistry did that, any sane human being would've pushed them.

[syxxpakk]

Davey & Eddie were teaming whether Pearce was given the job or not, it's on that DVD ask anyone else who has seen it. Pearce turned them into mega stars? their perfomances and chemistry did that, any sane human being would've pushed them.

I've watched that DVD, as I've said, and I don't recall Gabe saying anything of the sort. I remember his big thing was "How does this benefit Tyler and how does this benefit Davey."

And again, if you're going to say "Davey and Eddie's performances and chemistry" did it, then Gabe isn't responsible for the Summer of Punk or Generation Next. It's only fair.

[WrestlingMatters]

He said it, end of story. You cannot compare a push a wrestler gets and a storyline/angle that the booker devised. For example, Davey is told to go out there and wrestle for 30 minutes, it's all up to the wrestler in that situation to succeed or not. In a storyline CM Punk is told to go out there and talk about why he dislikes the fans and told to sign his WWE contract on the ROH title. Anyone can put a guy vs another guy and it can be an amazing match. Not everyone can give a wrestler a microphone and tell them how to get heat and create instances in which you can change and improve someones character to get them more over.

[lariato]

Adam Pearce put together Eddie and Davey, regardless, so ultimately it's attributable to him and only him.

They wrestled together for Noah before they teamed in RoH. They'd already got the names (because they wrestled in Wolverhampton, England) before Pearce booked them.

[syxxpakk]

I'm listening to the Gabe shoot again and so far no mention of putting Edwards/Richards together.

Pretty sure Edwards and Richards did NOT team in NOAH, but I'm not 100% on that. I know they did a one-off in England prior to making their ROH debut.

[lariato]

The Wolverhampton, England show was a Noah show.

[syxxpakk]

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=28479

This does not appear to be a NOAH show. But could be mistaken.

[syxxpakk]

I can't even find where NOAH did a Europe show in 09. Any links?

[syxxpakk]

1st show afterward would feature Roddy vs. Davey.
2nd show is Davey vs. Lynn.
3rd show is Davey Richards vs. Erick Stevens.
4th show is Davey Richards in a squash.

So, thus far, nothing but singles matches. This is pretty much how I remember it.

[syxxpakk]

Davey Richards had no specific matches booked for the next two shows (St. Louis/Tennessee) - but he would have gone over on both nights. If Nashville didn't do good, he was going to make it Survival of the Fittest which Davey would have won continuing the huge singles push.

Philadelphia would have been NOAH wrestler vs. Davey Richards.
Final Battle would have been a tag match. Generico/Steen vs. Richards and Morishima

He finally, BRIEFLY, mentions Edwards/Richards as a team - almost in passing! I think we can easily say that throughout ALL of this the goal was the push Richards as a singles star and that the tag team was an afterthought.

So, again, Pearce was the one who really pushed them as a team that made him a big star. It wasn't Gabe, as Gabe was going to proceed in a completely different direction. Another way you can look at is this: Adam was heading towards a Davey Richards-title win. Just because he had a brief idea about it doesn't mean Delirious doesn't get credit for booking it.

[WrestlingMatters]

Davey Richards had no specific matches booked for the next two shows (St. Louis/Tennessee) - but he would have gone over on both nights. If Nashville didn't do good, he was going to make it Survival of the Fittest which Davey would have won continuing the huge singles push.

Philadelphia would have been NOAH wrestler vs. Davey Richards.
Final Battle would have been a tag match. Generico/Steen vs. Richards and Morishima

He finally, BRIEFLY, mentions Edwards/Richards as a team - almost in passing! I think we can easily say that throughout ALL of this the goal was the push Richards as a singles star and that the tag team was an afterthought.

So, again, Pearce was the one who really pushed them as a team that made him a big star. It wasn't Gabe, as Gabe was going to proceed in a completely different direction. Another way you can look at is this: Adam was heading towards a Davey Richards-title win. Just because he had a brief idea about it doesn't mean Delirious doesn't get credit for booking it.

So he was putting them together, that means you were wrong. But you wont apologize of course because of your somewhat creepy allegiance to the mighty Adam Pearce. ALL HAIL ADAM PEARCE!

[syxxpakk]

LOL. What is there to apologize for?

I was actually right - and, honestly, so were you.

Adam is still responsible for making them stars. Gabe thinking of putting two guys together as an afterthought =/= making them stars and it wasn't a sure bet to happen. He DID say it (which I admitted), but it was still on Adam for putting them together and pushing them as a major team - which was never Gabe's intention.

I'm sorry you don't like post-Gabe ROH, but if you don't, I recommend just not watching. No need to put yourself through that. You have 60 posts here and about 50 of those are complaining about ROH. You like the Steen-angle and Future Shock/Young Bucks, sure, but it seems like you don't like anything else. I say give it a rest/break and come back in a few months and maybe you'll enjoy it? I don't know, but it seems weird for you to continue harping on a product you don't seem to like.

[WrestlingMatters]

LOL. What is there to apologize for?

I was actually right - and, honestly, so were you.

Adam is still responsible for making them stars. Gabe thinking of putting two guys together as an afterthought =/= making them stars and it wasn't a sure bet to happen. He DID say it (which I admitted), but it was still on Adam for putting them together and pushing them as a major team - which was never Gabe's intention.

I'm sorry you don't like post-Gabe ROH, but if you don't, I recommend just not watching. No need to put yourself through that. You have 60 posts here and about 50 of those are complaining about ROH. You like the Steen-angle and Future Shock/Young Bucks, sure, but it seems like you don't like anything else. I say give it a rest/break and come back in a few months and maybe you'll enjoy it? I don't know, but it seems weird for you to continue harping on a product you don't seem to like.

Hey man I wish we could hug this out, in a manly way of course. I like enough that I'm just about still currently watching, hope Final Battle is good and they can be a bit more consistent next year. Steen has been a big loss for me, he made even some of the small B shows entertaining.