Final Battle 2020 Official Thread

[AnHonorableMention]

Danhausen is the shits. A goth peewee herman in ROH is fucking lame.

Oh, what a fantastic comparison. There's clearly demand for meme wrestlers and if they can make a living doing their shtick, good for them. I have no interest in seeing them in ROH, however, especially with ROH presenting itself as a serious, sports-like product. It's not even a coherent gimmick, just random nonsense for the sake of random nonsense.

I cannot take credit for the comp to PeeWee that goes an ROH alumni I am friends with that is not in the business anymore. The amusing part is, Delirious didn't want comedy and thus vanquished Cabana to commentary and now we get this garbage.

[AnHonorableMention]

When MJF lost to Moxley was his run at the top over? Shane Taylor is most likely next and guess what, hes not winning, so does that mean Shane is then buried? There is only one champ. When PCO won all we heard was how he barely had any singles wins & wasn't ready to main event...but some how Brody losing is the end of his career...

At the top? Absolutely, hence why they never continued that story beyond his loss, and another contender was already in place after the match ended. AEW has a direction, and yeah there's a lot going on but they have a clearly defined destination each time they change the title. ROH has no direction or purpose right now aside from base concepts that on paper are great. It's where they go and how they get to the final destination that is the problem.


PCO winning was fucking dumb and arguably one of the dumbest moves in the history of ROH. You are in a period where you are in desperate need of top card babyfaces. Yet your top program is two heel factions albeit in different sections of the heel genre. Shane Taylor, also a heel. It's silly, and its bad booking. Watch it end up being someone out of left field to win the title next like Josh Woods.

How do you know ROH has no direction right now??? IMO, they have a direction. They just turned Brody into a legit main eventer,Shane Taylor has gone from Heel to slow burn face & right now he is running away with FB poll for next world title challenge (which ROH knew he would win based off reaction hes gotten last 3 months.) They have built up The Foundation as the next big Faction to go against the big bad heels in La Faccion. They just got Flip over as a future world title challenger. After Taven is done with Vincent he will be getting his rematch along with Haskins having his future world title match. And you still have guys like EC3,Jay,Dalton,Silas lurking. Shane will get the shot at The Experience and he will be screwed settiing up Rush vs Shane vs Brody vs Williams 4 way for title at Anniversary show. Rush will some how retain, and go on to defend vs Flip at SOH, & vs Rhett on TV episode, before facing Lethal at BITW. Rush then defends vs haskins during the summer,rematches Taven at DBD, and finally setting up Rush vs Gresham at FB 2021. And throughout the year we will get tag team matches,6 and 8 man matches all furthering the storyline.

I watch the product. Brody would have been cemented as a legit top guy had he won. Instead he lost on a fuck finish on the biggest show of the year(or any year). He's now lesser than he was before the Taylor match. Speaking of... Shane Taylor is on the right path but needs to be clearly defined as a face if that's what he's going to be. Let him talk it out more, he's got the facial selling to do it too. Just gotta take the right time. But again, it's early there.

The Foundation are heels, going up against a different type of heel faction. It's ridiculous. I love pretty much everyone involved with both groups, it's not a good fit.

Flip is a complete dipshit of a human being and not someone worth trusting to lead my company as a main eventer or holding any title.

Taven is awful. Just absolutely awful and belongs nowhere near the top guy. Whomever made the final call to have that guy win in MSG should be fired and then beaten with sticks.

Haskins, is an unknown and that goes for the international folks like Slex too. No idea when he'll be back. Having a title shot does not equate to a direction.

EC3, I don't see it. I've seen the kid since he started here locally. Never got it. Was involved in the worst match I've ever seen live. No coming back from that.

Dalton & Silas I'd group as one because they've overstayed their welcome. No more upward movement. They've done all they could and Dalton Castle fortunately has had PCO lap him as worst ROH Champ of all time.

You've put together lots of concepts and ideas but it's execution. Delirious has always struggled with follow through. He has since he became booker in 2010. I see zero reason to think that's going to change.

[AnHonorableMention]

Danhausen is the shits. A goth peewee herman in ROH is fucking lame.

Oh, what a fantastic comparison. There's clearly demand for meme wrestlers and if they can make a living doing their shtick, good for them. I have no interest in seeing them in ROH, however, especially with ROH presenting itself as a serious, sports-like product. It's not even a coherent gimmick, just random nonsense for the sake of random nonsense.

ROH has always had off beat gimmicks even in the glory days.

While very true, that doesn't mean the law of diminishing returns isn't still in play.

[Shanahan]

At the top? Absolutely, hence why they never continued that story beyond his loss, and another contender was already in place after the match ended. AEW has a direction, and yeah there's a lot going on but they have a clearly defined destination each time they change the title. ROH has no direction or purpose right now aside from base concepts that on paper are great. It's where they go and how they get to the final destination that is the problem.


PCO winning was fucking dumb and arguably one of the dumbest moves in the history of ROH. You are in a period where you are in desperate need of top card babyfaces. Yet your top program is two heel factions albeit in different sections of the heel genre. Shane Taylor, also a heel. It's silly, and its bad booking. Watch it end up being someone out of left field to win the title next like Josh Woods.

How do you know ROH has no direction right now??? IMO, they have a direction. They just turned Brody into a legit main eventer,Shane Taylor has gone from Heel to slow burn face & right now he is running away with FB poll for next world title challenge (which ROH knew he would win based off reaction hes gotten last 3 months.) They have built up The Foundation as the next big Faction to go against the big bad heels in La Faccion. They just got Flip over as a future world title challenger. After Taven is done with Vincent he will be getting his rematch along with Haskins having his future world title match. And you still have guys like EC3,Jay,Dalton,Silas lurking. Shane will get the shot at The Experience and he will be screwed settiing up Rush vs Shane vs Brody vs Williams 4 way for title at Anniversary show. Rush will some how retain, and go on to defend vs Flip at SOH, & vs Rhett on TV episode, before facing Lethal at BITW. Rush then defends vs haskins during the summer,rematches Taven at DBD, and finally setting up Rush vs Gresham at FB 2021. And throughout the year we will get tag team matches,6 and 8 man matches all furthering the storyline.

I watch the product. Brody would have been cemented as a legit top guy had he won. Instead he lost on a fuck finish on the biggest show of the year(or any year). He's now lesser than he was before the Taylor match. Speaking of... Shane Taylor is on the right path but needs to be clearly defined as a face if that's what he's going to be. Let him talk it out more, he's got the facial selling to do it too. Just gotta take the right time. But again, it's early there.

The Foundation are heels, going up against a different type of heel faction. It's ridiculous. I love pretty much everyone involved with both groups, it's not a good fit.

Flip is a complete dipshit of a human being and not someone worth trusting to lead my company as a main eventer or holding any title.

Taven is awful. Just absolutely awful and belongs nowhere near the top guy. Whomever made the final call to have that guy win in MSG should be fired and then beaten with sticks.

Haskins, is an unknown and that goes for the international folks like Slex too. No idea when he'll be back. Having a title shot does not equate to a direction.

EC3, I don't see it. I've seen the kid since he started here locally. Never got it. Was involved in the worst match I've ever seen live. No coming back from that.

Dalton & Silas I'd group as one because they've overstayed their welcome. No more upward movement. They've done all they could and Dalton Castle fortunately has had PCO lap him as worst ROH Champ of all time.

You've put together lots of concepts and ideas but it's execution. Delirious has always struggled with follow through. He has since he became booker in 2010. I see zero reason to think that's going to change.

My point is you have guys who can step in to challenge (& lose) with storylines built in while also continuing the main fued (Faccion/Foundation).

I also think both groups are tweeners at moment but with fans back Foundation will be the clear faces. Kenny/RUSH are the only real heels & its mostly go away heat for Kenny. Dragon Lee will get cheers based off his style.

[AnHonorableMention]

How do you know ROH has no direction right now??? IMO, they have a direction. They just turned Brody into a legit main eventer,Shane Taylor has gone from Heel to slow burn face & right now he is running away with FB poll for next world title challenge (which ROH knew he would win based off reaction hes gotten last 3 months.) They have built up The Foundation as the next big Faction to go against the big bad heels in La Faccion. They just got Flip over as a future world title challenger. After Taven is done with Vincent he will be getting his rematch along with Haskins having his future world title match. And you still have guys like EC3,Jay,Dalton,Silas lurking. Shane will get the shot at The Experience and he will be screwed settiing up Rush vs Shane vs Brody vs Williams 4 way for title at Anniversary show. Rush will some how retain, and go on to defend vs Flip at SOH, & vs Rhett on TV episode, before facing Lethal at BITW. Rush then defends vs haskins during the summer,rematches Taven at DBD, and finally setting up Rush vs Gresham at FB 2021. And throughout the year we will get tag team matches,6 and 8 man matches all furthering the storyline.

I watch the product. Brody would have been cemented as a legit top guy had he won. Instead he lost on a fuck finish on the biggest show of the year(or any year). He's now lesser than he was before the Taylor match. Speaking of... Shane Taylor is on the right path but needs to be clearly defined as a face if that's what he's going to be. Let him talk it out more, he's got the facial selling to do it too. Just gotta take the right time. But again, it's early there.

The Foundation are heels, going up against a different type of heel faction. It's ridiculous. I love pretty much everyone involved with both groups, it's not a good fit.

Flip is a complete dipshit of a human being and not someone worth trusting to lead my company as a main eventer or holding any title.

Taven is awful. Just absolutely awful and belongs nowhere near the top guy. Whomever made the final call to have that guy win in MSG should be fired and then beaten with sticks.

Haskins, is an unknown and that goes for the international folks like Slex too. No idea when he'll be back. Having a title shot does not equate to a direction.

EC3, I don't see it. I've seen the kid since he started here locally. Never got it. Was involved in the worst match I've ever seen live. No coming back from that.

Dalton & Silas I'd group as one because they've overstayed their welcome. No more upward movement. They've done all they could and Dalton Castle fortunately has had PCO lap him as worst ROH Champ of all time.

You've put together lots of concepts and ideas but it's execution. Delirious has always struggled with follow through. He has since he became booker in 2010. I see zero reason to think that's going to change.

My point is you have guys who can step in to challenge (& lose) with storylines built in while also continuing the main fued (Faccion/Foundation).

I also think both groups are tweeners at moment but with fans back Foundation will be the clear faces. Kenny/RUSH are the only real heels & its mostly go away heat for Kenny. Dragon Lee will get cheers based off his style.

You've named names and executed logical reasons for them to have a shot at Rush and lose. You've got dates or shows in for those matches. However, that's YOU doing it and not Delirious. There's also the notion that nobody wins on their first shot and subsequent times after. It hurts the fan emotion and fan investment. Also having talked to people on both sides of the faction war both groups are intended to be heels. So there's that aspect of the problem as well.

I'm obviously a big supporter of the concepts we've got right now. But as it has been since 2010 very few of Delirious' ideas are followed through to completion without over thinking or turning toward another direction without finishing the original plot. Look at Scum. It was and this is a Delirious quote "NWO in Fast Forward". Say what you want about the Scum concept but you let that marinate and play out, you have multiple years of story potentially. Instead in came in like thunder and went out with a slight temporary limp.

[Shanahan]

I watch the product. Brody would have been cemented as a legit top guy had he won. Instead he lost on a fuck finish on the biggest show of the year(or any year). He's now lesser than he was before the Taylor match. Speaking of... Shane Taylor is on the right path but needs to be clearly defined as a face if that's what he's going to be. Let him talk it out more, he's got the facial selling to do it too. Just gotta take the right time. But again, it's early there.

The Foundation are heels, going up against a different type of heel faction. It's ridiculous. I love pretty much everyone involved with both groups, it's not a good fit.

Flip is a complete dipshit of a human being and not someone worth trusting to lead my company as a main eventer or holding any title.

Taven is awful. Just absolutely awful and belongs nowhere near the top guy. Whomever made the final call to have that guy win in MSG should be fired and then beaten with sticks.

Haskins, is an unknown and that goes for the international folks like Slex too. No idea when he'll be back. Having a title shot does not equate to a direction.

EC3, I don't see it. I've seen the kid since he started here locally. Never got it. Was involved in the worst match I've ever seen live. No coming back from that.

Dalton & Silas I'd group as one because they've overstayed their welcome. No more upward movement. They've done all they could and Dalton Castle fortunately has had PCO lap him as worst ROH Champ of all time.

You've put together lots of concepts and ideas but it's execution. Delirious has always struggled with follow through. He has since he became booker in 2010. I see zero reason to think that's going to change.

My point is you have guys who can step in to challenge (& lose) with storylines built in while also continuing the main fued (Faccion/Foundation).

I also think both groups are tweeners at moment but with fans back Foundation will be the clear faces. Kenny/RUSH are the only real heels & its mostly go away heat for Kenny. Dragon Lee will get cheers based off his style.

You've named names and executed logical reasons for them to have a shot at Rush and lose. You've got dates or shows in for those matches. However, that's YOU doing it and not Delirious. There's also the notion that nobody wins on their first shot and subsequent times after. It hurts the fan emotion and fan investment. Also having talked to people on both sides of the faction war both groups are intended to be heels. So there's that aspect of the problem as well.

I'm obviously a big supporter of the concepts we've got right now. But as it has been since 2010 very few of Delirious' ideas are followed through to completion without over thinking or turning toward another direction without finishing the original plot. Look at Scum. It was and this is a Delirious quote "NWO in Fast Forward". Say what you want about the Scum concept but you let that marinate and play out, you have multiple years of story potentially. Instead in came in like thunder and went out with a slight temporary limp.

I don’t disagree with you...I’m just a hopeless optimist lol

[Montana]

In terms of DanHausen....While he completely doesn't fit the ROH sports based presentation... He appeals to that MEME culture / Indy Darling. I like that it's unique... and ROH could probably do some decent storylines with it. Part of the problem is the little fanbase that ROH has; and their need to constantly replenish talent.

I hate to say it; but someone i think ROH has about 1-5K Loyal hardcore fans; and about 50-60K casual fans. Compare that to AEW; where you have about 700K Loyal Hardcore fans; with a total of about 1M casual overall fans. There has been over 300K views for an AEW Dark episode in 2 days; compared to the 52K for Final Battle Hour one (To be fair Hour One streamed on multiple sites) So while i think the sports presentation has gotten some positive praise; ROH is still way behind on the power curve; and their gap with Impact seems to only be widening at the moment. Long story short... you can't fault ROH for trying some unique type wrestlers/gimmicks when they are rebuilding trying to regenerate interest.

[Montana]

Final Battle Dave Meltzer star ratings

4 way - 3.25
Pure tag 3.25

Tag team championship 3.75
Castle/Horus 3.25
OGK/Righeous 3.5
Mecca/Danhausen 1.5
Tv title 3.75
Jay Briscoe vs Shane 3.75
Pure title 4.25
World title 3.5

[Shanahan]

Meltzer ratings are a joke now. First he was way over blowing NJPW stuff, then AEW. I'd trust the opinion of random internet person more than Dave at this point.

[AnHonorableMention]

My point is you have guys who can step in to challenge (& lose) with storylines built in while also continuing the main fued (Faccion/Foundation).

I also think both groups are tweeners at moment but with fans back Foundation will be the clear faces. Kenny/RUSH are the only real heels & its mostly go away heat for Kenny. Dragon Lee will get cheers based off his style.

You've named names and executed logical reasons for them to have a shot at Rush and lose. You've got dates or shows in for those matches. However, that's YOU doing it and not Delirious. There's also the notion that nobody wins on their first shot and subsequent times after. It hurts the fan emotion and fan investment. Also having talked to people on both sides of the faction war both groups are intended to be heels. So there's that aspect of the problem as well.

I'm obviously a big supporter of the concepts we've got right now. But as it has been since 2010 very few of Delirious' ideas are followed through to completion without over thinking or turning toward another direction without finishing the original plot. Look at Scum. It was and this is a Delirious quote "NWO in Fast Forward". Say what you want about the Scum concept but you let that marinate and play out, you have multiple years of story potentially. Instead in came in like thunder and went out with a slight temporary limp.

I don’t disagree with you...I’m just a hopeless optimist lol

But even the most hardened of optimists, must explore reality.

[Reaper G]

In terms of DanHausen....While he completely doesn't fit the ROH sports based presentation... He appeals to that MEME culture / Indy Darling. I like that it's unique... and ROH could probably do some decent storylines with it. Part of the problem is the little fanbase that ROH has; and their need to constantly replenish talent.

I hate to say it; but someone i think ROH has about 1-5K Loyal hardcore fans; and about 50-60K casual fans. Compare that to AEW; where you have about 700K Loyal Hardcore fans; with a total of about 1M casual overall fans. There has been over 300K views for an AEW Dark episode in 2 days; compared to the 52K for Final Battle Hour one (To be fair Hour One streamed on multiple sites) So while i think the sports presentation has gotten some positive praise; ROH is still way behind on the power curve; and their gap with Impact seems to only be widening at the moment. Long story short... you can't fault ROH for trying some unique type wrestlers/gimmicks when they are rebuilding trying to regenerate interest.

I was sold on Danhausen when I heard his interview on Busted Open. Definitely oddball, but he has a great command of a very unique character. And while I love classic, old school wrestling, there have always been colorful characters in the biz. Sometimes, you just gotta have fun.

[EvanKnight]

ROH has a long history of not pulling the trigger fast enough on rising stars even adjusting for the fact that a lot of "indie" fans prefer a faster rise to the top than say a more old-school mentality would. The current ROH regime has never proven the ability to create a new star. Even agreeing with both those points, I don't think they missed the boat or dropped the ball by having Brody King lose. ROH is still in a rebuild phase and that isn't the time to put the belt on an unproven who was most recently (pre-pandemic) in a tag team or mid-card. Besides, when Brody gets a hard push, he needs to be dominant and the current ROH doesn't allow for that; who is he going to run roughshod over? Also, RUSH is something special and needs to be solidified as such. He needs to be cemented as the bonafide star right now.

Danhausen is an interesting one. Personally I hated Ebessan and thought Cabana was difficult to sit through 25% of the time, but even Shakespeare threw a bit of comedy in his dramas to make them easier to sit through. Final Battle was a good show, do in large part to the variety of styles, Danhausen match included.