Final Battle 2020 Predictions

[Montana]

Forum edit: Please order Final Battle 2020 thru our link to help us out! Thank you

At this time; ROH said Final Battle will be in 6 weeks; So i'm estimating it on the weekend of DEC 13th or 20th. Still lots of unknowns; if it's taped/live. If it's 100% still on. Sounds like Mexican talent; will try to fly in; not sure on the Europe and Australian talent. Looks like they are building up Final Battle with the TV tapings now. So what do you think will happen???

Here's my guess at the card:

ROH Title Match
Rush vs. Brody King

Pure Title Match
Gresham vs. Mark Haskins

Tag Team Championship
Lethal & Gresham vs. Silas Young & Josh Woods

TV Title
Dragon Lee vs. Tracey Williams

Quinn vs. Angelina Love

Mecca vs. Dalton Castle

EC3 vs. Shane Taylor

Briscoes vs SOS

Cage Match
Taven vs. Vincent

Kenny King vs. PCO

Dak Draper vs. Bandido vs. PJ Black

DanHausen vs. Rhett Titus

[BurningHammer]

I guess it depends on wether or not the likes of RUSH and Lee will stick around that long or if they will just be at the TV tapings to basically hand the titles over. I'm hoping there will be a couple of guys from the Pure tournament and some new blood debuting soon to give the Pure title some real meaning on the card.

Regarding matches, Flip and Haskins still have world title shots coming (though the likelihood of having any talent over from the UK or Aus, seems slim to none right now, ROH is really going to have to think about moving them over at this point) Also do these rankings really matter and what do they look like. Who's First second third etc.

I'm hoping SOS get a Tag title shot here and win, (I'm guessing the title match against TGOT gets sorted at the TV tapings), unless it becomes a multiman at Final Battle.

I can see number ones contenders matches for the World Title and Tag Team titles, Maybe have on the pre show depending on again where people are ranked or who they. Brody against Shane Taylor for the world title contendership then have the Briscoes vs MexiBlood for Tag Team contendership

I'm guessing there will be a PURE Title match, it seems to be a bit ridiculous to launch it and not have it on the supposed biggest show of the year. Maybe Gresham is still champ or maybe not, same with the Tag Titles just so he isn't doing double duty. If possible I would love Gresham vs Yehi, but if it's just talent in ROH I would go with Woods vs Gresham.

TV title match for sure Lee vs Horus maybe.

Taven vs Vicent for sure or a group of Tavens guys vs Vincent's

EC3 seems a little bit of outlier as already they seemed to have moved away from him and Shane Taylor (obviously they could be revisiting it in the next couple of weeks) you would expect him on the card in someway. Same with Dalton he just keeps loosing (where have I seen this booking before) so I'm guessing he will be on the pre show, maybe not at all considering how his story is playing out, I can't imagine him vs Brian will be at Final Battle, that a TV tapings match at best.

My biggest wish is Hero debuts and we have Hero vs RUSH for the title and he goes onto encapsulate the restoration of Honor and Wrestling in ROH.

[cgstong]

According to the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, ROH’s television from now on will be building toward Final Battle, and a date for that PPV will be announced on November 16. It’s believed the date will be sometime in December. It will take place in Baltimore but like the TV tapings, will not have an audience. This will also be the first ROH event to air live since the pandemic started, as it will be available on PPV and Honor Club.


The current plan is for ROH World Champion RUSH and TV Champion Dragon Lee to return at the next tapings to build to title matches at Final Battle. All of the Mexican talent on the roster are scheduled to appear at the tapings. European talent that are under contract will not return this year, but ROH is hoping they can get them back early next year.

RUSH and Dragon Lee both have contracts expiring at the end of the year. WWE previously offered Rush a deal, as did MLW, and the deal he eventually got with ROH was said to be one that was better than many talents based in Mexico. Lee’s ROH deal allows him to work New Japan, but he hasn’t been back there for some time.

[Lynx]

My predictions:

Rush vs. Brody King for world title. Outside of Brody I don't see anyone really being viable to challenge Rush and he is getting pushed a bit here + fans would accept him as a challenger, I think, unlike someone like EC3, Shane or PCO.

Gresham vs Lethal for pure title. They should lose tag titles, maybe something happens there, maybe it is just a "friendly" match to show what Pure title is all about. Either way I think that Gresham needs to beat Lethal to cement himself as the leader of this new faction.

Young/Woods vs Briscoes for tag titles. Don't know how, but I think these two teams are best options at the moment for tag title match if Gresham/Lethal are losing their titles.

Dragon Lee vs Tracey for tv title. Tracey got a bit of a rub during Pure tournament and this is probably a good spot for him to cash it in.

Taven vs Vincent in a NO DQ match. This is obviously a thing that is going to happen, but stipulation might obviously be different.

Quinn vs Angelina Love because women hate each other. Don't care, but obviously being built up for this show.

EC3 vs Shane for title shot at the following show. As I said previously, neither guy is established or liked well enough to challenge Rush, but if they kill it here then it could work.

MEXA Squad vs someone for six man titles.

Throw everyone else into a pre-show rumble

[monster mafia]

i love rush and dragon lee and i hope they stay...fucking pandemic!

if rush is gone..go all the way with brody king, he is awesome and maybe the best option givin the circunstances.

[BurningHammer]

ROH has such a problem with the people they have chasing the title, for example Shane is probably the most well balanced (as a package) out of all of them yet receives very little buzz. Both Flip and EC3 have a lot of issues when it comes to their public profile which will get highlighted even more as a champ. Then you have Brody who still has a long way to go in all areas but if it all comes together for him, he’s certainly the best choice in the long run.

Personally I would love Taylor as Champ but again it depends what ROH wants to present as a company

[Montana]

I agree, it completely comes down to what kind of product they want to be. If they were truly going "all in" on Pure Wrestling; Jonathan Gresham should be the world champ.

I think if it was me; and Rush is leaving; I'd put Bandido over as world champ to make the fans happy. I'd also be offering really nice deals; and trying to sign Jeff Cobb back; as well as Lucha Bros. I'm not sure when their deal is up with AEW; but I'd love to have them in ROH.

I like Shane Taylor; but he's going to have the exact same problems that Matt Taven had; in that people don't buy him as world champ. Although, how much do you listen to your critics vs. your fans. Although; i don't know any fans asking for it either. Same for Kenny King; he's probably one of the most ready; but I don't see that fans would accept it. Think Taylor would actually have a pretty solid run as champ too; but the drawing aspect could suffer.

Two other long shot guys at this point; I think either of these guys would be "interesting' champs if nothing else. I'll start with Dak Draper. ROH has a history or slowly building guys up. While he may not quite be the most exciting in the ring; i see lots of potential in the guy. He's got a great look; good promo's ...and serviceable in the ring. It would be a bit of a "sink or swim" move; but i think Dak has more to offer; than what he's currently doing/showing. The Other is Josh Woods; especially if you are going in more of a sports based approach. Personally i feel like ROH is certainly building him up to be that but like in 2 years. Like a Silas & Woods tag title run; then they break up; then Josh is a main eventer is what they are going for; and ultimately Josh become a top babyface with a more serious side in the future. But if ROH is desperate; I'd consider accelerating these guys into the title picture.

Then Brody King in that role; i think it's alright. I think it's bad because they've made it clear, he's only had a couple singles matches. But i think he's someone that can bring eyes to the product. Very capable wrestler. I kiinda wish they booked him to be a bit more dominant too. He's often compared to Joe; so why not try and make him Samoa Joe 2.0.

I agree Flip and EC3 aren't ready. EC3 would basically be gifted the belt if he got it anytime soon. I don't know all the details with the Flip situation; but they guy rarely does any videos or promotion for himself/the company. I assume he doesn't agree with the Sinclair COVID protocols. Think he's a worthy challenger; but doesn't seem like the timing is there.

==========================================================================================================

Sounds like we should have more Final Battle details announced later today.

[AnHonorableMention]

I agree, it completely comes down to what kind of product they want to be. If they were truly going "all in" on Pure Wrestling; Jonathan Gresham should be the world champ.

I think if it was me; and Rush is leaving; I'd put Bandido over as world champ to make the fans happy. I'd also be offering really nice deals; and trying to sign Jeff Cobb back; as well as Lucha Bros. I'm not sure when their deal is up with AEW; but I'd love to have them in ROH.

Couple things:

1. What is the point of the Pure Title if it's not booked even with the World Title? Gresham is the guy for that title, no point in taking it off of him, already, and giving him a belt that means less now than ever before.

2. Bandido doesn't live in the states, his deal is up at the end of next year. With the pandemic, who knows if he'll be able to cross the border. He also had a bad case of COVID. Who knows how that has affected him.

3. Jeff Cobb signed a big deal with NJPW, he's not coming back full time. Had he wanted to be here, he could have been.

4. Everyone at AEW made deals ranging from 3-5 years, there's zero chance they'll be in ROH ever. ROH won't be competing with AEW to sign talent.

5. Lastly, next ROH Champ should be Kenny King because he's been booked so poorly, he's owed a solid on top of the fact he's earned it more than pretty much everyone in ROH. It's long past due to go all in on Kenny, Rhett, and Brody King. Instead we had PCO shoved down our throats. Sad.

[Lynx]

With how much it is referenced I'd think that their plan is to eventually revisit pure title vs world title match. If they can keep Rush, then doing Rush vs Gresham would make, in my opinion, perfect sense since Rush can kinda represent everything wrong with RoH. Don't get me wrong, I really like him, but he is not a workrate guy, really likes wrestling outside the ring and his faction is basically all about not following any rules and doing whatever you feel like doing. I think that to many thats the opposite of what RoH is "supposed to be".

[Montana]

I agree, it completely comes down to what kind of product they want to be. If they were truly going "all in" on Pure Wrestling; Jonathan Gresham should be the world champ.

I think if it was me; and Rush is leaving; I'd put Bandido over as world champ to make the fans happy. I'd also be offering really nice deals; and trying to sign Jeff Cobb back; as well as Lucha Bros. I'm not sure when their deal is up with AEW; but I'd love to have them in ROH.

Couple things:

1. What is the point of the Pure Title if it's not booked even with the World Title? Gresham is the guy for that title, no point in taking it off of him, already, and giving him a belt that means less now than ever before.

2. Bandido doesn't live in the states, his deal is up at the end of next year. With the pandemic, who knows if he'll be able to cross the border. He also had a bad case of COVID. Who knows how that has affected him.

3. Jeff Cobb signed a big deal with NJPW, he's not coming back full time. Had he wanted to be here, he could have been.

4. Everyone at AEW made deals ranging from 3-5 years, there's zero chance they'll be in ROH ever. ROH won't be competing with AEW to sign talent.

5. Lastly, next ROH Champ should be Kenny King because he's been booked so poorly, he's owed a solid on top of the fact he's earned it more than pretty much everyone in ROH. It's long past due to go all in on Kenny, Rhett, and Brody King. Instead we had PCO shoved down our throats. Sad.

1) I didn't say take the Pure title off Gresham... But if they are going a more sport focused approached, book it champ vs champ. They don't need three singles title belts. One of them needs to merge.

2) Obliviously Bandido would need to be healthly and cross the border. Last i heard the borders were open. I assume ; Bandido will make a full successful recovery; but it could take a few months.

3) Last update on Jeff Cobb below... maybe i took it as he signed through New Years dash; but really he's staying in Japan until New Years Dash; but maybe returning and with them long term.

"Jeff Cobb currently hasn’t had any matches for NJPW on its most recent tour but The Wrestling Observer Newsletter reports that he is still in Japan and will be staying through New Year’s Dash. He has been living at the dojo and training during his time there.Cobb has no role in the company currently, and a possible spot in the Empire went to NJPW’s own trainee Great O’Khan. He was set to be in the tag team tournament, but the partner they planned for him, Mikey Nicholls, couldn’t get to Japan in time. It was reported back in September that Cobb signed with NJPW."

4) I wouldn't say zero chance.... Lucha Bros may see it as they could be World champs in ROH; instead of low card guys in AEW. They haven't really done much since their fued with the bucks. ROH has shown faith in mexican talent, with no ceilings. Maybe that would appeal to them. Plus AEW is going to have a huge expensive roster; when it's time to resign everyone in 2022. Or a potential ROH/AEW partnership in the future. May be far fetched; but possible. Again, depends on the direction of the company down the road.

5) I'll just say the fans would love Kenny King just as much as Matt Taven.... but i don't think i'd go that route, even if he earned it. The guy did bolt after winning the tag belts; so i think it will take more time for that wound to be healed.

[kovs27]

I agree, it completely comes down to what kind of product they want to be. If they were truly going "all in" on Pure Wrestling; Jonathan Gresham should be the world champ.

I think if it was me; and Rush is leaving; I'd put Bandido over as world champ to make the fans happy. I'd also be offering really nice deals; and trying to sign Jeff Cobb back; as well as Lucha Bros. I'm not sure when their deal is up with AEW; but I'd love to have them in ROH.

Couple things:

1. What is the point of the Pure Title if it's not booked even with the World Title? Gresham is the guy for that title, no point in taking it off of him, already, and giving him a belt that means less now than ever before.

2. Bandido doesn't live in the states, his deal is up at the end of next year. With the pandemic, who knows if he'll be able to cross the border. He also had a bad case of COVID. Who knows how that has affected him.

3. Jeff Cobb signed a big deal with NJPW, he's not coming back full time. Had he wanted to be here, he could have been.

4. Everyone at AEW made deals ranging from 3-5 years, there's zero chance they'll be in ROH ever. ROH won't be competing with AEW to sign talent.

5. Lastly, next ROH Champ should be Kenny King because he's been booked so poorly, he's owed a solid on top of the fact he's earned it more than pretty much everyone in ROH. It's long past due to go all in on Kenny, Rhett, and Brody King. Instead we had PCO shoved down our throats. Sad.

1) I didn't say take the Pure title off Gresham... But if they are going a more sport focused approached, book it champ vs champ. They don't need three singles title belts. One of them needs to merge.

2) Obliviously Bandido would need to be healthly and cross the border. Last i heard the borders were open. I assume ; Bandido will make a full successful recovery; but it could take a few months.

3) Last update on Jeff Cobb below... maybe i took it as he signed through New Years dash; but really he's staying in Japan until New Years Dash; but maybe returning and with them long term.

"Jeff Cobb currently hasn’t had any matches for NJPW on its most recent tour but The Wrestling Observer Newsletter reports that he is still in Japan and will be staying through New Year’s Dash. He has been living at the dojo and training during his time there.Cobb has no role in the company currently, and a possible spot in the Empire went to NJPW’s own trainee Great O’Khan. He was set to be in the tag team tournament, but the partner they planned for him, Mikey Nicholls, couldn’t get to Japan in time. It was reported back in September that Cobb signed with NJPW."

4) I wouldn't say zero chance.... Lucha Bros may see it as they could be World champs in ROH; instead of low card guys in AEW. They haven't really done much since their fued with the bucks. ROH has shown faith in mexican talent, with no ceilings. Maybe that would appeal to them. Plus AEW is going to have a huge expensive roster; when it's time to resign everyone in 2022. Or a potential ROH/AEW partnership in the future. May be far fetched; but possible. Again, depends on the direction of the company down the road.

5) I'll just say the fans would love Kenny King just as much as Matt Taven.... but i don't think i'd go that route, even if he earned it. The guy did bolt after winning the tag belts; so i think it will take more time for that wound to be healed.

All Mexican talent is expected to be at the next ROH taping.

Bandido did get Covid-19 and had very bad symptoms. He returned to CMLL too early and did ask for more time off. I do believe he has since returned again but that can be checked by checking out more recent CMLL cards.

Jeff Cobb is in World Tag League. I won't say any more because what he is doing would be considered a spoiler if you haven't been keeping up with New Japan.

I think the only person still mad about Kenny King leaving when he did is Jim Cornette. I'd imagine anyone else in ROH is over it by now.

[monster mafia]

[Chrisvegas27]

Roh is teasing returns and debuts for the show

[BurningHammer]

Think we could see Dragon Lee vs Williams, I’m guessing Williams wins putting another title in the hands of the foundation (who cut a fucking awesome promo on week by week) will be interesting too see if they will have someone that focuses on the World title or Gresham pushes the
Pure title as an equal title towards next year.

You could have STP vs Mexisquad, (STP are owed a shot) maybe have Shane do double duty to help try and get him over a little more.

Interesting to note that Castle isn’t on the poster, although I get the feeling that the poster doesn’t really mean much.

Kenny King would never make grade in ring wise, if people couldn’t believe Taven is good enough King would suffer a worst fate. Then Rhett has never shown a ounce of ability in singles that would ever suggest he would be good enough for any title.

I would hope that ROH has a couple of nice surprises that everyone can get behind instead of a very Kingdom esq reveal.

[AnHonorableMention]

1) I didn't say take the Pure title off Gresham... But if they are going a more sport focused approached, book it champ vs champ. They don't need three singles title belts. One of them needs to merge.

Doing a champ vs. champ program needs building, like years worth, like Bryan and Nigel. Hotshotting that would be completely stupid.

2) Obliviously Bandido would need to be healthly and cross the border. Last i heard the borders were open. I assume ; Bandido will make a full successful recovery; but it could take a few months.

There are restrictions on international travel still in place. He'd need a working visa and be able to justify travelling to the states with a covid positive.

3) Last update on Jeff Cobb below... maybe i took it as he signed through New Years dash; but really he's staying in Japan until New Years Dash; but maybe returning and with them long term.

"Jeff Cobb currently hasn’t had any matches for NJPW on its most recent tour but The Wrestling Observer Newsletter reports that he is still in Japan and will be staying through New Year’s Dash. He has been living at the dojo and training during his time there.Cobb has no role in the company currently, and a possible spot in the Empire went to NJPW’s own trainee Great O’Khan. He was set to be in the tag team tournament, but the partner they planned for him, Mikey Nicholls, couldn’t get to Japan in time. It was reported back in September that Cobb signed with NJPW."

He signed a multi-year deal with them. His story is pretty clear watching the product and by reading results. Brother is gonna be a huge name there.

4) I wouldn't say zero chance.... Lucha Bros may see it as they could be World champs in ROH; instead of low card guys in AEW. They haven't really done much since their fued with the bucks. ROH has shown faith in mexican talent, with no ceilings. Maybe that would appeal to them. Plus AEW is going to have a huge expensive roster; when it's time to resign everyone in 2022. Or a potential ROH/AEW partnership in the future. May be far fetched; but possible. Again, depends on the direction of the company down the road.

They just main evented an episode of Dynamite on TNT and are part of a big story with PAC and Eddie Kingston. Calling them low card tells me you don't watch or just want them in ROH because ROH has 1 tag team worth a salt. AEW has more than enough money and Warner Media behind them, they'll lose talent who want to leave or people they want to leave. ROH alienated too many people who work for AEW, and AEW gains nothing working with ROH.

5) I'll just say the fans would love Kenny King just as much as Matt Taven.... but i don't think i'd go that route, even if he earned it. The guy did bolt after winning the tag belts; so i think it will take more time for that wound to be healed.

OK Jim Cornette. Kenny is as loyal as they come and left because of Cornette. Matt Taven was the worst ROH champion of all outside of PCO and Castle. Why would you not capitalize on Kenny's bachelor tour of duty, oh wait they didn't. Dude can go, has a ton of personality, and fans love him, or love to boo him. That's the opposite of Taven who most long term fans think of as the guy who landed on George Steele.

[Montana]

1) I didn't say take the Pure title off Gresham... But if they are going a more sport focused approached, book it champ vs champ. They don't need three singles title belts. One of them needs to merge.

Doing a champ vs. champ program needs building, like years worth, like Bryan and Nigel. Hotshotting that would be completely stupid.

2) Obliviously Bandido would need to be healthly and cross the border. Last i heard the borders were open. I assume ; Bandido will make a full successful recovery; but it could take a few months.

There are restrictions on international travel still in place. He'd need a working visa and be able to justify travelling to the states with a covid positive.

3) Last update on Jeff Cobb below... maybe i took it as he signed through New Years dash; but really he's staying in Japan until New Years Dash; but maybe returning and with them long term.

"Jeff Cobb currently hasn’t had any matches for NJPW on its most recent tour but The Wrestling Observer Newsletter reports that he is still in Japan and will be staying through New Year’s Dash. He has been living at the dojo and training during his time there.Cobb has no role in the company currently, and a possible spot in the Empire went to NJPW’s own trainee Great O’Khan. He was set to be in the tag team tournament, but the partner they planned for him, Mikey Nicholls, couldn’t get to Japan in time. It was reported back in September that Cobb signed with NJPW."

He signed a multi-year deal with them. His story is pretty clear watching the product and by reading results. Brother is gonna be a huge name there.

4) I wouldn't say zero chance.... Lucha Bros may see it as they could be World champs in ROH; instead of low card guys in AEW. They haven't really done much since their fued with the bucks. ROH has shown faith in mexican talent, with no ceilings. Maybe that would appeal to them. Plus AEW is going to have a huge expensive roster; when it's time to resign everyone in 2022. Or a potential ROH/AEW partnership in the future. May be far fetched; but possible. Again, depends on the direction of the company down the road.

They just main evented an episode of Dynamite on TNT and are part of a big story with PAC and Eddie Kingston. Calling them low card tells me you don't watch or just want them in ROH because ROH has 1 tag team worth a salt. AEW has more than enough money and Warner Media behind them, they'll lose talent who want to leave or people they want to leave. ROH alienated too many people who work for AEW, and AEW gains nothing working with ROH.

5) I'll just say the fans would love Kenny King just as much as Matt Taven.... but i don't think i'd go that route, even if he earned it. The guy did bolt after winning the tag belts; so i think it will take more time for that wound to be healed.

OK Jim Cornette. Kenny is as loyal as they come and left because of Cornette. Matt Taven was the worst ROH champion of all outside of PCO and Castle. Why would you not capitalize on Kenny's bachelor tour of duty, oh wait they didn't. Dude can go, has a ton of personality, and fans love him, or love to boo him. That's the opposite of Taven who most long term fans think of as the guy who landed on George Steele.

Wwe is currently doing a champ vs champ match to headline a major ppv with like 10 days build. It’s possible... especially when you don’t have proper time to build up a ppv. Maybe not ideal, but you can do it.

Bandido is on the final battle poster. He’ll make it back to ROH soon it seems, And I still stand by if Rush leaves I’d put the belt on him, assuming he’s healthy now.

I just casually keep up with njpw headlines. Good for Cobb if he’s doing well. Didn’t seem that way from the pwi report.

Lucha Bros have main evented like 1 week this year, and it just last week. They’ve done nothing since the Bucks feud. Covid didn’t help but I’ll be happy if they use them more/better going forward. I watch dynamite, not dark though. Merely speculation on my behalf, but who knows if AEW can stay in business at this pace for 3-5 years. They haven’t grown their audience at all the first 18 months... plus I have to imagine covid is hurting them. Now they aren’t trouble now, as they continue to spend...but I don’t see fans flocking to events in the next 1-2 years. They had trouble selling 800-900 tickets to full gear.

Your the first person I’ve seen that say Kenny king is loved, and should be ROH champ. I like him, and actually think he’s very close to Taven, but I give the edge to Taven in nearly every category to measure a wrestler as of 2019-20. While on the subject of giving the belt to people who earned it, Silas Young would have to be in the discussion at this point if we are talking King and Taven as world champs.

———————-

I also noticed Dalton Castle wasn’t on the poster. I wonder if he’s on his way out. Strange to have Mecca on the poster but not Castle. Could be nothing too i guess.

As for returns and debuts... hopefully ROH delivers. They got an uphill battle in front of them. The 2020 changes are steps in the right direction, but I wonder if it’s too late. For every win they get... its 1 or 2 losses.

[NewROHFan2020]

Anyone who believes the Lucha Bros would leave AEW for ROH in the near future is delusional

[Montana]

Anyone who believes the Lucha Bros would leave AEW for ROH in the near future is delusional

Not Delusional.... saying i would love to see them in ROH ; doesn't mean i expect them to leave AEW. I understand they are signed to a contract with AEW.

IF I WAS in charge of ROH; I would be talking with AEW about a talent exchange and make it mutually beneficial. Clearly AEW has more talent; than they can use and signing lots of folks for additional programing coming in 2021. Long term; it makes sense for AEW get on good terms with NJPW/Impact/ROH/ MLW. Just like a sports team GM; you have to be aggressive; and not sit on your hands. Especially with the "uphill" battle ROH is currently facing. AEW can choose not to partake.... but i would at least keep the lines of communication open. Again; not happening over night, or in the near future; but doesn't hurt ROH to try.

[monster mafia]

maybe that was the plan back in the day with marty ...

[Shanahan]

I could see a scenario in post covid future where AEW would send some of their younger guys who need match time (5 min dark matches a week wont cut it ) to ROH for 6 to 8 month peroid & ROH sends a former champ who is in between storylines (think cobb this time last year) to AEW to be used to get over a upper mid carder.