Food for thought re: attendance

[supersonic]

For those SBG/Kofi/Delirious era cheerleaders that shit on Gabe’s acclaimed, influential booking for being a money drain and us old school ROHbots for not being accepting of the corporate “grown-up world,” get a nice look.

Observer:

This week was the U.K. tour which did not do well. We didn’t get official numbers from the tour but 10/25 in London did about 400 at York Hall which is terrible, 10/26 in Newport, Wales, did about 150 and 10/27 in Bolton, UK looked to have done a little over 300

The following is also sourced from the Observer.



Once again, swirl it around in your mouth and taste it, then put it in your pipe and smoke it.

The only booking legacy Delirious will leave behind is comfortably, lazily relying on NJPW-affiliated talent to draw record numbers and then being exposed as never grooming anyone else for when that band-aid got removed. His legacy will be that unlike Gabe, when it was time for the big Manhattan show with the outside company bringing its world title to the card, he had to bend to the partner company’s will, be their bitch, and put the ROH title match underneath. In short, Delirious and his 2014-18 numbers were fraudulent and unsustainable.

And to state the obvious, his artistic legacy as a booker also pales to the Gabe era. That would require a long-form article to appropriately dig into and articulate.

[AnHonorableMention]

Again we can beat the drum and as I told Trev on twitter, Joe, Greg, and Hunter don't care anymore about fans money than they do the booking. We're meaningless.

[BurningHammer]

I think certainly 17-18 in the end became far too reliant on New Japan, The Elite talent and 16-17 saw a lot young talent squandered or certainly used incorrectly and just generally poorly and right now they are paying for it. It would be easy for anybody to put all their eggs in those baskets as they were very successful, unfortunately they have had the problem where the product has been devalued in the long run especially paired with poor and very inconsistent booking that hasn't grabbed people at a large number. I think this year they tried (in some part) and in the end failed miserably to do what they needed, and it can be said for a variety of reasons and not just booking, from the many mistakes and the word that has gotten out about ROH behind the scenes will always leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth. Especially now where fans in general cannot or don't want to be associated with promotions that have any hint of 'carny bullshit' that certainly lives in wrestling.

I have my own personal caveat especially on booking, in the general I feel it has improved, to a point certainly. I can see things evolving and developing into something I can really get behind especially all around the card which has been sorely lacking for a while, there is certainly major flaws and open holes with ongoing placement of people and ideas that need changing and handling differently but the last few months have shown a greater desire to create moments for everyone that can tell a story, especially in promo's. Seeing the way, they ROH Woods/Silas is great, the same can be said for Gresham and Lethal. Taven whatever people may think of him has connected strongly with a specific audience, the live reaction to him in the UK shows I went to told me that he has got something there. Finally breaking up the Kingdom is the best thing ROH has done in sometime, it was a flop from the start and showed ROH at its worst, in its inception this was very much a hint of a decline in talent choice. Vinny though on his own as a stable leader rather than wrestler has far more appeal to me than anything he has done up until now. Taven as a singles guy or even with a new Kingdom with guys that actually have a following or bring even a little bit of fresh star power is something that I can get behind. Shane Taylor has for me, found himself and is brining something different to the table, him also brining in SOS is another good use of talent that was left behind after being associated with Bully Ray, as is having Ron Hunt be another storyteller for him. PCO couldn't have asked for a better push, though I do think he has been used way too much for my liking and probably should have been used as a special attraction rather than a centre piece. It has created a situation for himself and ROH that has been difficult to get out of even if they wanted and has led to a Final Battle match that isn't a sure-fire thing. I did think prior to his Injury Bandido was finally getting the push and the right sense of booking he needed, especially with the win against Jay Briscoe (that reminded me of when booking was great) hopefully that continues, he needs the rocket strapped to him now if he is going to stay. Maria Maniac despite the shitshow in between has been booked well and how she should be, it just went on a stupid amount of time Thankfully she hasn't lost her ability to grab an audience with her strength and intimidation. I've really enjoyed how Joe Hendry has been used and feel he's found his feet in ROH more than any other time in career. especially in ring he is miles better than a year ago even. I also enjoy his chemistry with Dalton and considering Dalton's injury creating a tag team for him is a smart idea and think it works creatively from a lot of aspects. Guys like Maff, Shelley I hope will be used more as they can bring both the old and the new to ROH, which has been really missing and other companies can attain more often. Having the likes of Quinn and Brian are really big additions to the product and will overall enhance ROH tremendously, it's now about harnessing them correctly, Brian especially should be a massive get when it comes to multimedia presentation YouTube could really be a big thing for him and ROH if he can get his creative juices going.

The likes of Haskins and Williams (the later specifically need a lot more from creative than they are getting, they need that deeper story told to give him that credibility. I think that's certainly where LifeBlood fell down and ROH as a whole has for a lot of guys, its ability to tell the deeper story, to create that connection with the crowd, especially when it isn't people the crowed have picked.) The same can be said for Kenny King and Bunny, that story is just there rather actually being explained in depth. If Marty is staying you have to put the title on him, there is no if's but or maybe's, RUSH isn't going to be hurt by losing the title he will always have a fan following for who he is and what he can do and introducing LOS into ROH is or could be huge too. ROH though needs Marty as champ more than anyone, for better or worse it connects to a very big audience and will hopefully allow people to get over the fact that he didn't win in MSG. VE could really be the biggest thing going for ROH and I don't know if it's been the contract situations that have prevented that but if that is all cleared up now, make them dominate, bring them to the front like you did Taven and the money and fans will come. Marty is also a sure fire four to five-star match guy, especially I'm sure with the championship on the line. Bandido against Marty for the title would be money down the line. Moving away from stories heavily driven by Bully Ray, and The Bouncers, the Allure in general will help massively and show that it's now about the great athletic talent rather than some schlub that needs to just stay in the back or two guys with a gimmick that cheapen everything. If ROH can do this plus being much better at finding a direction for talent straight away, how many times have we seen guys be hurt by stupid booking decisions from the off only later to have something found for them but it's too late, in many fans mind the talent is tarnished. Shane Taylor, LifeBlood to an extent is a prime example of it.


Hopefully Final Battle overall is the end for a lot of this ROH cannon and in Philly things can start a new with hopefully a lot of talent staying, this is probably the most important time for ROH in its history when it comes to people staying, if they can get the guys that have a strong presence worldwide it would give ROH a massive shot in the arm. Returning to how TV had been made previously will help too, just carry on with the current match making and promo styles and it will be a very good watch.

I have far more issues with ROH in production and behind the scenes, and that includes Sinclair as well, there needs to be safety in and out of the ring and I don't care how close everyone is there needs to be change in how ROH operates or is allowed to operate. They cannot go without concussion protocol, security, Travel being messed up and especially a medic not being present. These changes more than anything need to happen and fast. These are things that we shouldn't even be having to think about let alone the guys working there. It's insane to think these things are going on while talent in all areas is trying it's best or needing to, to get a show up and running.

From the production side, filming, graphic, lighting, music needs massive upgrades. The choice of camera shots and lack of creative thinking behind them is so bad at times I want to smash my TV, I have also found out the worse guy there is the most experienced one, staggering really. Stuff like the in ring moments with Taven and Vinny at Glory By Honor mainly but also at Excellence when they decide to do that stupid camera edit of acting all manic, entrances can have bizarre first time shots taken or camera men are having to run in position because they forget or don't seemingly know where they are going, surely they've been doing it long enough now that each man and woman will go a specific way that you just can't fuck up. The same goes for in the ring whoever is deciding to go with certain shots or directing the guys around the ring needs a real teaching in how wrestling works. Music can feel so outdated and or unconnected to the talent that it drains away the excitement of entrances. It's even more infuriating when they can get it so right for some. Vignettes always feel the same or a shot, 'enhanced' always the same way it can just feel so cheap and rushed. T'Shirt design and general graphic work needs a massive upgrade, using the same logo's or very clinical designs for event logos doesn't connect fans to anything, try and give them so more originality, the posters have at least done that. What's even weirder is the likes of FIGHT TV actually have these graphics that have been made up for the show, but the website doesn't, it's crazy. T'Shirts as we know can be on the very cheap side and having a cool design is so very far between, hopefully the most recent choices are a sure thing are getting better on that front, but boy things couldn't get much worse.

We are hearing there are big changes coming in 2020 I can only hope that's the case as if a parent company doesn't give a shit about you, there is only so long anyone can go anything for. I realise there is a sense of lethargy in the back in ROH as Annorable mentions they don't care about fans, the content I do wonder if that has come from Sinclair not really giving a shit so why should they, but if big plans are ahead why is their lethargy or an total lack of care being associated with the product. There are a lot of mixed messages so it will be interesting to see what 2020 brings.

[Montana]

For those SBG/Kofi/Delirious era cheerleaders that shit on Gabe’s acclaimed, influential booking for being a money drain and us old school ROHbots for not being accepting of the corporate “grown-up world,” get a nice look.

Not sure who are cheerleaders for SBG/Koff/Greg/Delirious, especially compared to Gabe. Carey said it before, if they didn't change directions, they would have went out of business, so in some sense, it's cool ROH moved forward. But much like Honorable Mention says, ROH doesn't care to improve/modify the product/experience/booking. Seems like most fans want ROH to improve, and their response has been "we have big plans for 2020"

I had wrote about 10 ways ROH should promote/market Final Battle, since it's their only show in the next 5 weeks, but it's kind of pointless, as they will just do what they've been doing. They'll draw a small crowd and onto the next show.

I agreed with a majority of what Burning Hammer wrote. The booking although not great, has been OK... it's so subjective, but it seems like a majority of the displeasure is just the stale - re-hashing ideas. i Think ROH would benefit greater by fixing their website, distrubution, tv formating, partnerships,etc. Again, like others said, they probably just need to clean house, and start fresh.

[famicommander]

You don't have to compare Gabe, Delirious, Cornette, etc to one another to criticize any of them.

I think it's pretty clear that none of the three are the right man for the job in 2019.

[supersonic]

For those SBG/Kofi/Delirious era cheerleaders that shit on Gabe’s acclaimed, influential booking for being a money drain and us old school ROHbots for not being accepting of the corporate “grown-up world,” get a nice look.

Not sure who are cheerleaders for SBG/Koff/Greg/Delirious, especially compared to Gabe. Carey said it before, if they didn't change directions, they would have went out of business, so in some sense, it's cool ROH moved forward. But much like Honorable Mention says, ROH doesn't care to improve/modify the product/experience/booking. Seems like most fans want ROH to improve, and their response has been "we have big plans for 2020"

I had wrote about 10 ways ROH should promote/market Final Battle, since it's their only show in the next 5 weeks, but it's kind of pointless, as they will just do what they've been doing. They'll draw a small crowd and onto the next show.

I agreed with a majority of what Burning Hammer wrote. The booking although not great, has been OK... it's so subjective, but it seems like a majority of the displeasure is just the stale - re-hashing ideas. i Think ROH would benefit greater by fixing their website, distrubution, tv formating, partnerships,etc. Again, like others said, they probably just need to clean house, and start fresh.

Putting some substantial resources for the on-demand streaming service would go a huge way. (Pipedream, but I hope Tony Khan eventually buys the library as I trust him to treat ROH's history with far more reverence and draw viewers to it.)

[famicommander]

I just hope if one or both of the companies are sold, Impact and ROH end up owned by the same company and it's not WWE.

I feel like there's so much shared history between ROH and TNA/Impact that it would be a shame if their respective video libraries were separated forever.

[Big Red Machine]

I think certainly 17-18 in the end became far too reliant on New Japan, The Elite talent and 16-17 saw a lot young talent squandered or certainly used incorrectly and just generally poorly and right now they are paying for it. It would be easy for anybody to put all their eggs in those baskets as they were very successful, unfortunately they have had the problem where the product has been devalued in the long run especially paired with poor and very inconsistent booking that hasn't grabbed people at a large number. I think this year they tried (in some part) and in the end failed miserably to do what they needed, and it can be said for a variety of reasons and not just booking, from the many mistakes and the word that has gotten out about ROH behind the scenes will always leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth. Especially now where fans in general cannot or don't want to be associated with promotions that have any hint of 'carny bullshit' that certainly lives in wrestling.

I have my own personal caveat especially on booking, in the general I feel it has improved, to a point certainly. I can see things evolving and developing into something I can really get behind especially all around the card which has been sorely lacking for a while, there is certainly major flaws and open holes with ongoing placement of people and ideas that need changing and handling differently but the last few months have shown a greater desire to create moments for everyone that can tell a story, especially in promo's. Seeing the way, they ROH Woods/Silas is great, the same can be said for Gresham and Lethal. Taven whatever people may think of him has connected strongly with a specific audience, the live reaction to him in the UK shows I went to told me that he has got something there. Finally breaking up the Kingdom is the best thing ROH has done in sometime, it was a flop from the start and showed ROH at its worst, in its inception this was very much a hint of a decline in talent choice. Vinny though on his own as a stable leader rather than wrestler has far more appeal to me than anything he has done up until now. Taven as a singles guy or even with a new Kingdom with guys that actually have a following or bring even a little bit of fresh star power is something that I can get behind. Shane Taylor has for me, found himself and is brining something different to the table, him also brining in SOS is another good use of talent that was left behind after being associated with Bully Ray, as is having Ron Hunt be another storyteller for him. PCO couldn't have asked for a better push, though I do think he has been used way too much for my liking and probably should have been used as a special attraction rather than a centre piece. It has created a situation for himself and ROH that has been difficult to get out of even if they wanted and has led to a Final Battle match that isn't a sure-fire thing. I did think prior to his Injury Bandido was finally getting the push and the right sense of booking he needed, especially with the win against Jay Briscoe (that reminded me of when booking was great) hopefully that continues, he needs the rocket strapped to him now if he is going to stay. Maria Maniac despite the shitshow in between has been booked well and how she should be, it just went on a stupid amount of time Thankfully she hasn't lost her ability to grab an audience with her strength and intimidation. I've really enjoyed how Joe Hendry has been used and feel he's found his feet in ROH more than any other time in career. especially in ring he is miles better than a year ago even. I also enjoy his chemistry with Dalton and considering Dalton's injury creating a tag team for him is a smart idea and think it works creatively from a lot of aspects. Guys like Maff, Shelley I hope will be used more as they can bring both the old and the new to ROH, which has been really missing and other companies can attain more often. Having the likes of Quinn and Brian are really big additions to the product and will overall enhance ROH tremendously, it's now about harnessing them correctly, Brian especially should be a massive get when it comes to multimedia presentation YouTube could really be a big thing for him and ROH if he can get his creative juices going.

The likes of Haskins and Williams (the later specifically need a lot more from creative than they are getting, they need that deeper story told to give him that credibility. I think that's certainly where LifeBlood fell down and ROH as a whole has for a lot of guys, its ability to tell the deeper story, to create that connection with the crowd, especially when it isn't people the crowed have picked.) The same can be said for Kenny King and Bunny, that story is just there rather actually being explained in depth. If Marty is staying you have to put the title on him, there is no if's but or maybe's, RUSH isn't going to be hurt by losing the title he will always have a fan following for who he is and what he can do and introducing LOS into ROH is or could be huge too. ROH though needs Marty as champ more than anyone, for better or worse it connects to a very big audience and will hopefully allow people to get over the fact that he didn't win in MSG. VE could really be the biggest thing going for ROH and I don't know if it's been the contract situations that have prevented that but if that is all cleared up now, make them dominate, bring them to the front like you did Taven and the money and fans will come. Marty is also a sure fire four to five-star match guy, especially I'm sure with the championship on the line. Bandido against Marty for the title would be money down the line. Moving away from stories heavily driven by Bully Ray, and The Bouncers, the Allure in general will help massively and show that it's now about the great athletic talent rather than some schlub that needs to just stay in the back or two guys with a gimmick that cheapen everything. If ROH can do this plus being much better at finding a direction for talent straight away, how many times have we seen guys be hurt by stupid booking decisions from the off only later to have something found for them but it's too late, in many fans mind the talent is tarnished. Shane Taylor, LifeBlood to an extent is a prime example of it.


Hopefully Final Battle overall is the end for a lot of this ROH cannon and in Philly things can start a new with hopefully a lot of talent staying, this is probably the most important time for ROH in its history when it comes to people staying, if they can get the guys that have a strong presence worldwide it would give ROH a massive shot in the arm. Returning to how TV had been made previously will help too, just carry on with the current match making and promo styles and it will be a very good watch.

I have far more issues with ROH in production and behind the scenes, and that includes Sinclair as well, there needs to be safety in and out of the ring and I don't care how close everyone is there needs to be change in how ROH operates or is allowed to operate. They cannot go without concussion protocol, security, Travel being messed up and especially a medic not being present. These changes more than anything need to happen and fast. These are things that we shouldn't even be having to think about let alone the guys working there. It's insane to think these things are going on while talent in all areas is trying it's best or needing to, to get a show up and running.

From the production side, filming, graphic, lighting, music needs massive upgrades. The choice of camera shots and lack of creative thinking behind them is so bad at times I want to smash my TV, I have also found out the worse guy there is the most experienced one, staggering really. Stuff like the in ring moments with Taven and Vinny at Glory By Honor mainly but also at Excellence when they decide to do that stupid camera edit of acting all manic, entrances can have bizarre first time shots taken or camera men are having to run in position because they forget or don't seemingly know where they are going, surely they've been doing it long enough now that each man and woman will go a specific way that you just can't fuck up. The same goes for in the ring whoever is deciding to go with certain shots or directing the guys around the ring needs a real teaching in how wrestling works. Music can feel so outdated and or unconnected to the talent that it drains away the excitement of entrances. It's even more infuriating when they can get it so right for some. Vignettes always feel the same or a shot, 'enhanced' always the same way it can just feel so cheap and rushed. T'Shirt design and general graphic work needs a massive upgrade, using the same logo's or very clinical designs for event logos doesn't connect fans to anything, try and give them so more originality, the posters have at least done that. What's even weirder is the likes of FIGHT TV actually have these graphics that have been made up for the show, but the website doesn't, it's crazy. T'Shirts as we know can be on the very cheap side and having a cool design is so very far between, hopefully the most recent choices are a sure thing are getting better on that front, but boy things couldn't get much worse.

We are hearing there are big changes coming in 2020 I can only hope that's the case as if a parent company doesn't give a shit about you, there is only so long anyone can go anything for. I realise there is a sense of lethargy in the back in ROH as Annorable mentions they don't care about fans, the content I do wonder if that has come from Sinclair not really giving a shit so why should they, but if big plans are ahead why is their lethargy or an total lack of care being associated with the product. There are a lot of mixed messages so it will be interesting to see what 2020 brings.

While I disagree about some of the individual talent/stories discussed, (particularly Shane Taylor, who might have fund himself on the mic, but the booking of him still feels completely lost to me) I think all of the overall points in this are pretty darn spot on. No one should ignore this post because if its length.