Death Before Dishonor 2019 Thread (9/27 Las Vegas)

[alexsmellzzz]

Yeah, one thing that definitely doesn't help is that PWG was last weekend. If you're from California, and you go to 1, 2, or all 3 nights of BOLA, literally some of the best wrestling out there in the world right now... would YOU travel 4 hours to see Matt Taven in a main event? It just makes ROH seem bush league. And they have talent! But they refuse to like, see the real world hierarchy of indie wrestling as anything that matters. In ROH, Taven is a world champion. Nowhere else would that make ANY sense. But in ROH, we are supposed to just be morons and buy into it, I guess.

Like, dude.... Bandido, Jeff Cobb, Marty Scurll, Brody King, Jay Briscoe, Jay Lethal.... ROH HAS talent. WHY is Taven the champion? It's beyond absurd. ANY of those guys would make better world champions. I don't CARE that Brody King still feels new. He's more believable as champion than Taven. If ROH was smart with the Gresham thing, he would make for a much better champion than Matt Taven. I know people in here are going to reply, "uhh Gresham is not on that level right now" dude MATT TAVEN is the champion. Gresham would absolutely be a better champion.

And on Taven/Rush..... Rush is great but he hasn't had any spectacular matches in ROH so far, aside from the Briscoes tag. I don't think there's a big Rush fan club right now. It's like ROH's long term booking just doesn't take into consideration the fans reactions to their product at ALL. Taven vs Rush is something they've built for a long time, spent a long time on, but if the fans don't really care, what does it matter? It just creates the opportunity for people to make jokes like "wait... who's the ROH champion now? So the funny thing is, even though ROH will (hopefully) be getting the belt off Taven... it's not really a step in the right direction. It's just a thing that's going to happen. Wrestling fans over the world won't really care much.

[YimYac]

Yeah, one thing that definitely doesn't help is that PWG was last weekend. If you're from California, and you go to 1, 2, or all 3 nights of BOLA, literally some of the best wrestling out there in the world right now... would YOU travel 4 hours to see Matt Taven in a main event? It just makes ROH seem bush league. And they have talent! But they refuse to like, see the real world hierarchy of indie wrestling as anything that matters. In ROH, Taven is a world champion. Nowhere else would that make ANY sense. But in ROH, we are supposed to just be morons and buy into it, I guess.

Like, dude.... Bandido, Jeff Cobb, Marty Scurll, Brody King, Jay Briscoe, Jay Lethal.... ROH HAS talent. WHY is Taven the champion? It's beyond absurd. ANY of those guys would make better world champions. I don't CARE that Brody King still feels new. He's more believable as champion than Taven. If ROH was smart with the Gresham thing, he would make for a much better champion than Matt Taven. I know people in here are going to reply, "uhh Gresham is not on that level right now" dude MATT TAVEN is the champion. Gresham would absolutely be a better champion.

And on Taven/Rush..... Rush is great but he hasn't had any spectacular matches in ROH so far, aside from the Briscoes tag. I don't think there's a big Rush fan club right now. It's like ROH's long term booking just doesn't take into consideration the fans reactions to their product at ALL. Taven vs Rush is something they've built for a long time, spent a long time on, but if the fans don't really care, what does it matter? It just creates the opportunity for people to make jokes like "wait... who's the ROH champion now? So the funny thing is, even though ROH will (hopefully) be getting the belt off Taven... it's not really a step in the right direction. It's just a thing that's going to happen. Wrestling fans over the world won't really care much.

How can you make the argument Rush can’t be Champion but argue Brody King should be? One of the least over people on the roster

[BurningHammer]

Yeah, one thing that definitely doesn't help is that PWG was last weekend. If you're from California, and you go to 1, 2, or all 3 nights of BOLA, literally some of the best wrestling out there in the world right now... would YOU travel 4 hours to see Matt Taven in a main event? It just makes ROH seem bush league. And they have talent! But they refuse to like, see the real world hierarchy of indie wrestling as anything that matters. In ROH, Taven is a world champion. Nowhere else would that make ANY sense. But in ROH, we are supposed to just be morons and buy into it, I guess.

Like, dude.... Bandido, Jeff Cobb, Marty Scurll, Brody King, Jay Briscoe, Jay Lethal.... ROH HAS talent. WHY is Taven the champion? It's beyond absurd. ANY of those guys would make better world champions. I don't CARE that Brody King still feels new. He's more believable as champion than Taven. If ROH was smart with the Gresham thing, he would make for a much better champion than Matt Taven. I know people in here are going to reply, "uhh Gresham is not on that level right now" dude MATT TAVEN is the champion. Gresham would absolutely be a better champion.

And on Taven/Rush..... Rush is great but he hasn't had any spectacular matches in ROH so far, aside from the Briscoes tag. I don't think there's a big Rush fan club right now. It's like ROH's long term booking just doesn't take into consideration the fans reactions to their product at ALL. Taven vs Rush is something they've built for a long time, spent a long time on, but if the fans don't really care, what does it matter? It just creates the opportunity for people to make jokes like "wait... who's the ROH champion now? So the funny thing is, even though ROH will (hopefully) be getting the belt off Taven... it's not really a step in the right direction. It's just a thing that's going to happen. Wrestling fans over the world won't really care much.

Honestly, wether it's me or not I actually really like the card, and if I had the cash I would fly over to America for the two days because there are matches that I really am wanting to see, apart from the three way (which really needs to be a singles match with Flip and Williams but I guess Flip is still recovering) and PCO vs King (which just sounds horrible) I am really happy with the matches that are on the card.

I do think that these two days are a sign that they are actually thinking about the idea of match ups and what works, while getting people to see it also. Judging by the cards in the UK it looks likely to be the way they will head for the long term future.

Gresham as TV champ for me right now would be perfect now, he is starting to be well placed as a higher tier guy especially if he gets the win over Lethal (no matter how he does it and even more so with a win over a Shelley), you have guy in ready to make the title his own. He is the type of wrestler very much in keeping with original idea of ROH while also being part of the new version that will please everyone. I think if you had a group of guys of Bandido, Brody, Williams, Gresham, Flip, Hendry all gunning for the TV title that's a strong core to build a title around. I don't think Brody should be near main event yet really, just from in a ring perspective he has a way to go to be a main event guy. Get him a run of single matches based around the TV title and allow him to grow there.

Overall I have no problem with the general idea behind making guys like Taven and Taylor as your champs, it's what ROH should do, give guys a chance, fail or succeed that's just what happens in wrestling. The important thing is to never give up on taking those chances because the next one could be a home run, for ROH now though I would it's about making fans happy and steady with the direction getting the people that are over in the wider wrestling circle as your champs and allow others to build from them.

[alexsmellzzz]

How can you make the argument Rush can’t be Champion but argue Brody King should be? One of the least over people on the roster

ROH's fans are disenfranchised and also really bored. Brody King is a great wrestler. He comes off like a star in PWG. He doesn't seem like that in ROH because ROH just sucks. If ROH took some notes from other companies and watched to see who the whole world thinks is the best, I think Brody would be near the top of ROH's list. They're like TNA with Okada at this point. Brody and Marty will be mega stars in AEW in a couple years. By that time, ROH will probably have given the world title to Beer City Bruiser.

Watch Taven/Rush and tell me the crowd really cares that much when Rush wins (if he does). I can almost guarantee you the finish will be flat. And Taven losing the belt should feel big since he's had it for so long. But nobody will care.

[kovs27]

As someone who has been to several ROH events this year I will say RUSH is far more over than Brody. If the Las Vegas crowd has been following the product then they should be pretty excited for the title change.

I do agree Brody should be used more than just a tag team guy with PCO. Unfortunately PCO is so much more over than Brody right now that when King comes out first it let's the crowd know PCO is next and get more hyped for him. I'd love to see Brody used more in singles action. He is someone who could be in main events very quickly.

[alexsmellzzz]

All I said was that Brody would be a better champion than Taven.

And that the crowd is not really into Rush as much as ROH would like them to be.

I wasn’t really comparing Rush/Brody. My whole point is that ROH should look at who the world likes and respects in wrestling and book accordingly. Their own rankings mean jack shit at this point. With Taven and Shane Taylor as champs, it’s just hard to care about title matches. I remember freaking out when Cole won the title a few years back in Vegas. It was an awesome moment and I wasn’t expecting it. No matter how good Rush/Tave is, the reaction isn’t going to be anything CLOSE to what Cole got that night. Because the product sucks right now, Taven sucks in general, etc. ROH needs to do more than make little incremental changes like you guys are suggesting. They need to burn it down and rebuild from scratch. This company has a TNA stink to it right now, and it doesn’t go away just by moving the belt from guy who isn’t over to guy who is kind of over. You need to do more than that.

[EvanKnight]

DBD thoughts on what should be a good show, ticket sales and disgruntled chatter aside.

Taven vs Rush
Rush needs to win. It’s the right move, right time, right place. Should be good.

Briscoes vs Bandito/Haskins
This has all the potential to be an ROH classic match. This needs to be the type of match it can be, the type that made ROH. Good wrestlers doing what they do in a decent length match with no stupid finish/booking.

TV title 3-way
They need to downplay the story, and just let it be “the champ gets what he wants” braggart, probably with an agent/hype man, as the background to a fun match. If the CONTRACT STATUS! is the center point, the match and all three guys will suffer.

Lethal vs Gresham
This has potential, the story is lackluster which is trouble because Gresham needs something to elevate him. ROH has struggled at elevating decent wrestlers into stars the past few years though. This will probably be more story based, probably leading to Gresham costing Lethal his match at the tv taping, which makes this a potentially double negative going in, but here’s hoping they make the best of it.

King vs PCO
This should be Kenny’s to win, probably will be decent but King needs this to be really good to keep his push from being completed dead in the water.

Scurll vs Cabana
Cabana is probably in the tournament to give Marty a win that isn’t over a regular roster member. Match will probably be a solid B, but honestly one of the two tournament matches should have been changed to a more exciting let them go 15 minutes of action with no backstory superindy special just because you can and ROH needs a little sizzle right now.

Klein vs Love
Ehh... Klein has to win here, right?

Bouncers vs Vincent/Young
The insistence on moving forward with this match without TK and forging this odd alliance means there HAS to be something special in the works, but for the life of me I can’t imagine what it is that would justify this cross-group partner match.

Cobb vs Brody
Awesome match to “Main Event” the pre-show. Perfect match to showcase for free. Will be fun and anyone against it is an irrational TOH hater in my book.

[AnHonorableMention]

As Joe Koff put it today with Bryan Alvarez and Jim Valley nobody brings the magic like Jay and JOSH Briscoe! He also attempted to sell the PPV based on 530 eastern start time and the best pre-show in the business before a 2 minute tirade on people criticizing Matt Taven for being too small to be champion. What a goof.

[monster mafia]

where is the press conference? not today too??

ok nevermind.

[alexsmellzzz]

Flip did an interview with Sports Illustrated website. To me, he should win the TV title match Friday. There should be no reason whatsoever to have Shane Taylor retain in that match. Just put Shane Taylor in his little rebel gimmick and have him do segments that nobody cares about... but get the title off him lol.

Plus, Flip is a guy that ROH really pushed so they obviously like him a lot. I think it's his first real match since getting injured besides that one where he didn't really wrestle. So his health is obviously a concern. But it does seem like he loves to wrestle and it's been months since he's been able to really compete at a high level. He was supposed to be on BOSJ but had visa issues. Then, if he wins, he can defend against Tracy, Bandido, PJ Black, whoever. When I see "Flip vs..." on a card, it's much more intriguing than "Shane Taylor vs..." so to me, this is a no-brainer.

[Lynx]

I think that we are probably moving towards some Flip/Tracy blow off at Final Battle so adding TV title to the mix could make it a bigger deal, but unfortunately I don't see where Taylor's story goes if he loses TV title here. So I think that he is retaining.

[alexsmellzzz]

I think that we are probably moving towards some Flip/Tracy blow off at Final Battle so adding TV title to the mix could make it a bigger deal, but unfortunately I don't see where Taylor's story goes if he loses TV title here. So I think that he is retaining.

If he's bringing in some new partner guy, have him team against Beer City Bruiser/Milonas or something. TV title should be more important. Unless he's wrestling Jeff Cobb, Shane Taylor's matches are bathroom breaks.

[Lynx]

https://www.pwinsider.com/article/12989 ... r.html?p=1

PCO is getting new theme by Jim Johnston, we will hear it at this show.

[Chrisvegas27]

They said this could open the door for him to create more themes for Roh

[SandsShifter]

I think that we are probably moving towards some Flip/Tracy blow off at Final Battle so adding TV title to the mix could make it a bigger deal, but unfortunately I don't see where Taylor's story goes if he loses TV title here. So I think that he is retaining.

If he's bringing in some new partner guy, have him team against Beer City Bruiser/Milonas or something. TV title should be more important. Unless he's wrestling Jeff Cobb, Shane Taylor's matches are bathroom breaks.

Biased as I may be, but I really liked his match against Chase, and the one against Bandido was great.

[monster mafia]

https://www.pwinsider.com/article/12989 ... r.html?p=1

PCO is getting new theme by Jim Johnston, we will hear it at this show.

This is great, huge news...hope he can make more music

[EvanKnight]

I think that we are probably moving towards some Flip/Tracy blow off at Final Battle so adding TV title to the mix could make it a bigger deal, but unfortunately I don't see where Taylor's story goes if he loses TV title here. So I think that he is retaining.

Flip/Tracy doesn’t really improve with the title in the mix, it may actually cause issues. Taylor goes from “ehh...” to completely dead in the water with a loss to a heel in a throwaway three way. So, probably not the time for a switch.

[monster mafia]

so no press conference as they advertised

nwa is gonna do one to promove his shows...nwa....nwa

[kovs27]

I haven't heard anything about the press conference.

[monster mafia]

ecks files: "A press conference with ROH World Champion Matt Taven and the undefeated RUSH, the two participants in the championship main event of the DBD pay-per-view, will take place this Tuesday. Keep it locked onto ROH’s social media channels for details on how to watch it."

also ian advertised on twitter...

maybe flight delays or some issue..idk.