Death Before Dishonor 2019 Thread (9/27 Las Vegas)

[Wilson]

though my lack of confidence in management prevents me from looking forward to their direction or even shows in sequence for any extended amount of time.

Do you find it is a trust issue to do the right thing?, as I think this is a major issue for ROH where fans don't feel they can trust them to make the right decission when it needs to be made. I think it's why people wont commit, they just feel their emotionall investment will be wasted. You can see it with RUSH and Taven, people don't or wont believe RUSH is wining and that creates a negativity that is hard to get rid of because people have already moved on to something that does feed their emotional investment. If RUSH does win I hope it's a start for people to reafirm their belief that ROH can be a company that does the right thing, that the ride they are taken on wont be wasted.

Essentially, yes. (Above, I was trying to avoid saying "structural reasons" undergirding my overall disenchantment with ROH because I feel like I've written that a twice week every week for the past several months.) And I think you've made a a great observation on the Taven/Rush match. Basically, I think a lot of wrestling fans--and I'll throw myself in there too--are waiting for a fast food chain-like admission that "the old formula was garbage, we mistreated you, our adoring fans, so we made this with an entirely new ingrediency and this time we promise to respect ourselves and you." This means getting rid of Johnston, Bully, and replacing Koff with someone other than Gilleland.

[Chrisvegas27]

Is it safe to say people in charge of running roh ain't doing what best for business and getting rid of people that need to go

[Montana]

I wonder how much of the problem is that they don't have the right person/team to take over the creative, and thus it's easier to just stick with Delirious.

Overall i haven't hated the booking as much as others, but DBD seems really thrown together. My theory is that Delirious and crew are too busy scouting and resigning talent post Summer Super card, and the card is suffering because a lot of contracts are ending soon.

You would think at some point, the sales number and projections wouldn't align with previous years, and eventually someone would need to explain.

For now, i'll just enjoy for what it is, and hopefully they get some new ideas injected soon.

[kovs27]

I think that would cause more panic than anything because Bubba & Joey would have the power. Right now they need to completely and totally clean house. Everyone, Delirious, Joey, Bubba, they all have to go and an entire new team or individual must be brought in to handle the procedures. It will never happen.

1. Delirious is essentially the son Joe Koff never had
2. The office is afraid of Bubba Ray
3. Firing Joey could lead to him getting back on drugs and they don't want that publicity

Honest question.....could Delirious and Joey be reassigned to do something else for the company? I've never worked on the inside I don't know what other positions are needed to run a wrestling company. Couldn't they just send Bubba home and let his contract run out. If they are that afraid of him just do it over the phone. Tell him we are going in a different direction, we'll pay you for the time left.

I cannot answer the question of re-assignment because in the corporate world that's essentially a very loaded question and would depend on whether they are contracted for a position, and language is in the deal that deals with task assignment. For example, my real job has me listed as a virtual consultant but often times I am asked to work with certain clients who have larger data pools than others. There is language in my contract specifically stating I am required to work a minimum of 56 hours a week and no maximum. I bill by the hour and am paid when I work. Delirious has been around so long his deal may be different from Joey & Bubba's. Lot of variables.

They could send Bubba home but then he's free to go on his radio show and bad mouth the company. Do the want to risk more bad publicity considering who they donate money to and how they dictate news commentators? There is, I believe and have been told a genuine fear of his behavior publicly.

Bottom line, you need someone or some people in place before replacing people who have those jobs and a justification for removal. I think the justification is there, from a product and attendance standpoint and the dirt between Bubba and Delirious's behaviors over the years speaks for itself.

Thank you for the well thought out answer. We tend to forget that the guys in the office have contracts to work for a corporation while I image the wrestlers have contracts to a wrestling company owned by a corporation. It's possible the language of Bubba's contract prohibits him from speaking negatively about ROH and Sinclair on his radio show.

[AnHonorableMention]

I wonder how much of the problem is that they don't have the right person/team to take over the creative, and thus it's easier to just stick with Delirious.

Overall i haven't hated the booking as much as others, but DBD seems really thrown together. My theory is that Delirious and crew are too busy scouting and resigning talent post Summer Super card, and the card is suffering because a lot of contracts are ending soon.

You would think at some point, the sales number and projections wouldn't align with previous years, and eventually someone would need to explain.

For now, i'll just enjoy for what it is, and hopefully they get some new ideas injected soon.

Much like Turner, the books will show they've been losing money two years after they began losing money. I think there's a lot of alternative options for creative but people are very concerned with working for the company. People in the business talk a lot and Joe Koff & Greg Gilleland do not get spoken highly in any regard. I think that right there is the biggest problem. In business you treat people a certain way and get that respect back. Delirious is a yes man, that's why he's still employed. I think when the time comes and certain people give the thumbs up, there's stories on all 3 men that would violate a morals clause.

[AnHonorableMention]

Honest question.....could Delirious and Joey be reassigned to do something else for the company? I've never worked on the inside I don't know what other positions are needed to run a wrestling company. Couldn't they just send Bubba home and let his contract run out. If they are that afraid of him just do it over the phone. Tell him we are going in a different direction, we'll pay you for the time left.

I cannot answer the question of re-assignment because in the corporate world that's essentially a very loaded question and would depend on whether they are contracted for a position, and language is in the deal that deals with task assignment. For example, my real job has me listed as a virtual consultant but often times I am asked to work with certain clients who have larger data pools than others. There is language in my contract specifically stating I am required to work a minimum of 56 hours a week and no maximum. I bill by the hour and am paid when I work. Delirious has been around so long his deal may be different from Joey & Bubba's. Lot of variables.

They could send Bubba home but then he's free to go on his radio show and bad mouth the company. Do the want to risk more bad publicity considering who they donate money to and how they dictate news commentators? There is, I believe and have been told a genuine fear of his behavior publicly.

Bottom line, you need someone or some people in place before replacing people who have those jobs and a justification for removal. I think the justification is there, from a product and attendance standpoint and the dirt between Bubba and Delirious's behaviors over the years speaks for itself.

Thank you for the well thought out answer. We tend to forget that the guys in the office have contracts to work for a corporation while I image the wrestlers have contracts to a wrestling company owned by a corporation. It's possible the language of Bubba's contract prohibits him from speaking negatively about ROH and Sinclair on his radio show.

I'd assume a company as seedy as SBG would have a non-disclosure built in. I have one in my contract with my job, as well as one through my own data management company that prohibits me from sharing information. It's a very complex safety measure. As an example of just how a NDC can be a debatable topic, my business was recently audited by the city I live in because 2018 was a very oddly balanced year(Quarter 4 was stronger than quarters 1-3 combined). The city wanted copies of my 1099 forms which would reveal the names of my clients. Normally that would not be a big deal, however the language of my Non-Disclosure Form requires mutual approval to be revealed. Problem was quickly solved but it can be a dicey situation when someone like Bubba has a lot of money to basically thumb his nose at SBG. Where I as a small business owner and sole employee of the company, has no ability at all to literally fight city hall.

[monster mafia]

lets talk about wrestling.

Are you the same guy who was posting “let’s be positive, guys”?

no

[monster mafia]

lets talk about wrestling.

Literally every post above you is about wrestling. Add something constructive or don't post if you can't.

you dont post anything constructive so..

[monster mafia]

Is it safe to say people in charge of running roh ain't doing what best for business and getting rid of people that need to go

[AnHonorableMention]

lets talk about wrestling.

Literally every post above you is about wrestling. Add something constructive or don't post if you can't.

you dont post anything constructive so..

Do you read? Everything above is quite constructive detailed and even complimented. Back to your regularly scheduled lets talk wrestling temper tantrum.

[BurningHammer]

though my lack of confidence in management prevents me from looking forward to their direction or even shows in sequence for any extended amount of time.

Do you find it is a trust issue to do the right thing?, as I think this is a major issue for ROH where fans don't feel they can trust them to make the right decission when it needs to be made. I think it's why people wont commit, they just feel their emotionall investment will be wasted. You can see it with RUSH and Taven, people don't or wont believe RUSH is wining and that creates a negativity that is hard to get rid of because people have already moved on to something that does feed their emotional investment. If RUSH does win I hope it's a start for people to reafirm their belief that ROH can be a company that does the right thing, that the ride they are taken on wont be wasted.

Essentially, yes. (Above, I was trying to avoid saying "structural reasons" undergirding my overall disenchantment with ROH because I feel like I've written that a twice week every week for the past several months.) And I think you've made a a great observation on the Taven/Rush match. Basically, I think a lot of wrestling fans--and I'll throw myself in there too--are waiting for a fast food chain-like admission that "the old formula was garbage, we mistreated you, our adoring fans, so we made this with an entirely new ingrediency and this time we promise to respect ourselves and you." This means getting rid of Johnston, Bully, and replacing Koff with someone other than Gilleland.

I can totally understand that and I've been up and down with ROH all year, I think I have tried my hardest to focus on possitives that I see rather than worrying about something I really can't change. I do think to a point they have at least done that in a small way but removing Bully Ray from an on screen role and seemingly a traveling role as I haven't heard him being at shows for quite a while. The next step would be RUSH winning the title, possibly Shane too, even though I think he is on a good upward swing and people are getting behind him, he shouldn't have to drop a title because a wider audience doesn't feel he is good enough when he clearly is no matter who is on the roster. There is still a long way to go but there have been changes that all be it small could enable a bigger change to the end of the year, hopefully anyway.

[alexsmellzzz]

FSW, the biggest local company, is running Mecca V on the Sunday after DBD and the tv taping. They pretty much always run these Mecca events after ROH weekends here. I think the one exception was when AEW had Double or Nothing here. They always have stacked cards for these. The upcoming one has Elgin, TJP, Pentagon, Fenix, Matt Sydal, Simon Gotch, and others.

Anyways, I saw that they had listed another Mecca event, Mecca VI coming up on Sun. 3/15. So this pretty much means ROH 18th Anniversary will be here on Friday 3/13 at Sam's Town.

https://www.facebook.com/events/914990578865002/

[Wilson]

I can totally understand that and I've been up and down with ROH all year, I think I have tried my hardest to focus on possitives that I see rather than worrying about something I really can't change. I do think to a point they have at least done that in a small way but removing Bully Ray from an on screen role and seemingly a traveling role as I haven't heard him being at shows for quite a while. The next step would be RUSH winning the title, possibly Shane too, even though I think he is on a good upward swing and people are getting behind him, he shouldn't have to drop a title because a wider audience doesn't feel he is good enough when he clearly is no matter who is on the roster. There is still a long way to go but there have been changes that all be it small could enable a bigger change to the end of the year, hopefully anyway.

As long as the executive team is the way it is, mixed creative decisions is the best I think we're gonna get because I think this is the best year since either 2016 or 2015. This year has been a clear demarcation from other years, so I don't think they need a new top talent (who is not a genuine and undeniable draw) as much as they need some kind of rebranding to happen to ameliorate what happened after G1 Supercard. ROH may also just need to ride out the AEW wave a bit so that being an alternative to either the big WWE or AEW promotions is commendable in itself. Just in terms of the things involved on the wrestling side, ROH to me seems kind of helpless to pull themselves back up on their own, even if booking gets smarter. They're reaping what they've sowed and the only things can change their current spot is a lucky break or a radical company shakeup.

An aside on Shane, I think lots of midcard talent in ROH "deserve" the TV title more than him even though I think he's solid and improving all the time. A big issue made of him being the champion during the same time as Taven is that they're both heels who just aren't champion-level draws. (To be clear, I think it's a fine creative decision to belt someone who isn't yet or may never become a big star, but it's a weird strategy to employ considering this attendance year.)

[monster mafia]

Shane Taylor OUT of Death Before Dishonor!! Says he's KEEPING the TELEVISION CHAMPIONSHIP!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcH95G9 ... e=youtu.be

[alexsmellzzz]

Shane Taylor OUT of Death Before Dishonor!! Says he's KEEPING the TELEVISION CHAMPIONSHIP!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcH95G9 ... e=youtu.be

Wish this was real

[monster mafia]

you so mean.

i think it is an angle.

[kovs27]

It's absolutely an angle. I'm curious if Shane will "defend" the tv title on other shows.

[maxx_powerz]

Heel thinks ROH management is against them, everybody take a shot and mark their spot on their Delirious booking cliches bingo card.

[Wilson]

Kind of an interesting promo and angle from Shane. I've never understood why someone so likeable is a heel or why I should ever be mad at him, but hey he's becoming more and more a character of interest since he's become the champion.

Heel thinks ROH management is against them, everybody take a shot and mark their spot on their Delirious booking cliches bingo card.

[Laughs] Every time it happens I think to myself how likely it is that it's a storyline the wrestler had to come up with themself because creative totally doesn't have time for character development outside of a few people.

[alexsmellzzz]

Shane just doesn’t do anything for me. If he’s not having a big dude battle with Jeff Cobb, he’s boring. His match last time in Vegas with Cobb was GREAT. But Cobb helped a lot with that. Cobb does the strength spots. What does Shane do exactly?

Taylor by himself just isn’t interesting as a wrestler or as this character cutting promos. He’s not scary or intimidating. And his body has always looked pretty weird, which I think hurts his believability as this big scary guy he’s trying to portray. I think he’d be better off in some kind of tag team. Or as a big bruiser guy in some kinda stable. As a singles title holder, idk. Its just hard to buy.