Honor For All 8/25/19 Nashville

[Wilson]

I think ROH 2019 is an overall improvement for compared to the amount of Bullet Club genuflection and main event staidness in recent years, but their bad booking reputation still seems pretty well-earned. As much as they've built up stars like Rush, Taven, and Cobb, it feels like they've let Lethal, Castle, and Scurll fall too far back. It sort of feels like a net zero for star power made since the beginning of the year.

And they've been put into a really hard spot this year. If the booking was strong they would have found ways to make at least one or two members of Villain Enterprises or Lifeblood in genuine top level stars within ROH. Specifically with Lifeblood, they concentrated half of their new stars in one of the weakest, least cohesive faction concepts I've ever come across. On its face, it's a TNA or late WCW-esque vehicle to uncreatively group talents together.

[Lesnar]

I watched on honorclub and it felt like a totally different experience than being there live. The broadcast made it seem like the audience was asleep. For example the PCO segment you could barely hear the crowd: Live it was one of if not the biggest pop of the night! The Joe Hendry entrance where he's on the ring apron doing his wave,the whole front row was waving with him but the camera didn't catch it making it seem like no one cared. All the chops and slaps were so loud live but barely audible on television. What's with their audio anyway? Not just Nashville last night,but on all their shows the music totally overpowers the commentary.And the picture quality is at times heavily pixelated. Definitely not HD.

Live was definitely the way to go for this event. Not that it was great or anything but the broadcast was dull. I read an online review that said the crowd seemed bored. Yeah, it did come across that way on honorclub,but no the crowd was very lively. The only time that it got awkwardly silent was during the Kelly Klein/Maneater segment.

Also, I cancelled my honorclub subscription today due to billing issues on my end so that I wouldnt forget later. Planned on renewing at a different time so I could balance all the due dates on my cc better and they ended my service immediately even though I'm paid up until the 30th of this month! I paid for a full month! My goodness this company needs work.

[AnHonorableMention]

People wouldn't reference poor attendance if the wrestling product was worth discussing.

Most of the people who talk about ticket sales either don't watch RoH anymore or have never watched it. Having good matches wouldn't change their perception.

I strongly disagree for the sole purpose of fans having done the whole make fun of attendance for years. I particularly remember the 2nd night of Final Battle 2007 (Rising Above???) being the subject of message boards. Show was sold out but the photos were taken early in doors opening leading to rampant speculation on poor sales. Booking is the biggest problem with why people don't care to go to shows.

[Chrisvegas27]

The thing is I truly don't know who Is available that has enough mind to make a difference

[AnHonorableMention]

I mainly say talent is an issue because there isn’t a dearth of great matches on cards, say this one for example, if you had two or three other matches mixed in with story line driven ones say a couple to really pop the crowd at the start then it has everything a card needs. This is where ROH needs to be better delivering matches that pop the crowd as that’s just where wrestling is at the moment.

I don't think the matches are a problem it's how the matches lead to other matches. Too much same-same as they say. For example, if Bandido and Scurll have a match, and Rush and Bandido have a match is either going to clearly separate from what you can see in a zillion other places? You need the story of why the matches are taking place to hold great value. That adds to the significance of the match.

Cobb’s loss was certainly handled poorly but that’s more management of a show, than actual booking, I get your point tough and that’s cool. ROH has immediately rebounded him well as soon as he’s come back after a mediocre G1, which I thought was handled horribly until the last night really, and that’s good booking. It maybe he’s the one that takes the title after all.

He's had two matches back, how possibly could that be enough to say ROH has rebounded him?

LifeBlood haven’t exactly had an easy start and they were hampered by a poor set up, fractured members and a stupidly long feud with Bully Ray, totally fine with calling all that shit out and it’s been deserved. They should still be putting promos, vignettes solidifying, delving into the relationship and that’s poor still that they haven’t.

With all that said their main aim is too restore the ‘LifeBlood’ of ROH, which was all about honor and having great matches or matches based around wrestling as being the main draw to their matches and after having so many months of that not being the case in ROH around the card, they do it but then get criticised by fans for just having good to great wrestling matches, go figure. While doing all of that they generating a good feud with VE, well to me they have. If you also notice their losses and wins I believe are close to even with each other so there is a competitiveness there that should be shining through and again that’s good solid booking, you’ve then got the underlying element of Flip turning on VE that again should give them something more to fight for.

The excuse of losing Juice, Tamille, and David Finlay falls flat because at the start it was a thrown together group who had absolutely nothing in common. No chemistry & no overall reason to be together established before they came together. Had all of them come in and found that common bond on camera, things for Lifeblood would hold water as the idea behind the group is very good.

Flip might be the single most overrated and uninspiring talent ROH pushes. Constantly hurt, lacks personality, cannot talk, and doesn't really get booked when healthy to show his strengths. The wins and losses are even, I think now it's a total split but that is not enough to tell a compelling tale anymore.

Also with Haskins has now pinned and submitted three of the top guys in ROH that if your looking at it should create a dynamic for him to seen as legitimate contender going forward. Again good booking.

He's where we're gonna high five and fist bump, because this is creative and unique storytelling that flew under the radar for many fans until it was pointed out on commentary. This is the lone positive so far with a guy from Lifeblood fans should hang on to.

The Briscoes have been having hard matches one after the other how long can they take the risks and hard yards without losing gold again, that’s why you should care the way they are putting their bodies on the life for the championships, will the Life Blood match be too far.

As a friend of the family and both men, I can tell you I care what they do. I do not care how they are used. Big difference. The tag division has not been this weak in years. It's quite frankly pathetic. The GOD/Briscoes feud was awesome violent wrestling. But that can only go on so long. Think about the Lifeblood group's goal, restoring honor. Why would they feud with the Briscoes who are literally the lifeblood of the company who are also babyfaces?

If you like Taylor of course you are going to care he has been held down if you don’t why would you, he’s explained the reasons why he has this gripe and it’s mainly good because it’s true. He’s delivered in the ring for a while and fans just say he’s blah and he feels a lot of that is at ROH’s feet and he isn’t wrong really. The same could be said for a lot of guys there and they are showing it in their promos, from C2C to Jon Gresham they are inviting reality into their stories and that’s important as you should want to succeed and get to the top if they are being ‘held down'

I love Shane, I've known him personally for a long time as well. He's had great matches and the booking has not made me care for him once he steps through the ropes. He needs to separate himself with promos and quality matches but also tell his insane life story on air. When people think their childhood sucked, listen to Shane's story and play it out each week on air. Why is he so violent and bent on destruction? It's all he knows. It's literally that simple.

As for Ali & LSG and Gresham, all 3 are under utilized and a heel team of Gresham and Lethal vs. baby Briscoes would be the fucking bees knees.

For Marty, He’s the leader of VE and current holder of the three man belts, who is likely leaving soon, what direction do you really need him in apart from being a draw because he’s there. If he’s staying I would expect things to change for him, I.e. getting in the main title picture but if he isn’t he’s fine where he is. Also the way they dealt with PCO has been great for a guy his age he’s been shown in a great light, Brody needs a bit of work but I think he will get there, Flip with VE has added a new dimension to him and it will be interesting to see where he goes with, it’s just been a shame with the injury.

Let's think about this for a second. 'Likely leaving soon' that has been said for months. Give him incentive to stay. Put your top belt on him and not some meaningless jabroni six man belt that is the slut of belts. Everyone has held those belts. They mean nothing. PCO is definitely lost on me, I do not care to see the act over and over. Put the Destro vignettes on TV or do some of your own. Tell his story. Brody King is great, he needs a manager but bell to bell he's a future World Champ.

RUSH has been built up well and it possibly now it looks like he will get TV gold before the World Title after he pinned Taylor at the TV tapings. It would keep him going and will be a fine a guy to pin Taylor who shouldn’t just have anyone beat him after his own unbeaten run. It would also give RUSH the chance to put another guy over after losing the TV title before going for the main one. He may even get tag gold with Lee soon to.

He's the guy who should be feuding with Cobb on top. No question in my mind, he's as good as anyone in this company and a feud with Cobb over the title would drum up significant interest. But you can't just put the belt on the line, that's why booking Cobb to lose to Taven and lose his unpinned streak. You could have run with two unbeaten streaks until Final Battle and had the blow off there with these two doing tags Rush/Lee vs. Cobb/Flamita or whomever would have been great stuff.

Castle has held his own as a heel and I thought the RUSH feud developed nicely even after the shit that happened in Chicago and he’s already got someone new with Hendry which is a nice move for both.

Dude is hurt badly and shouldn't be in the ring. Needs to be a manager. The Rush and Castle was meh to me. The Joe Hendry thing is historically lame. I like Joe, there's a story I'll tell about him when the time is right that will blow your minds because a very similar story exists with Matt Taven & Delirious. The fact Joe is in ROH with a push right now is hilarious to many of the guys who know the story, including people in the locker room.

Using Silas as a teacher for Josh Woods is a good move and should have been done ages when it showed how green he was, is it amazing no, it is sensible yes.

Josh Woods is as boring as Matt Stryker. Not even the great Silas Young, who is one of my favorite people ever is gonna help that guy matter. The fact Delirious wanted Josh Woods before he wanted Matt Riddle is just tremendous.

Overall I’m not saying ROH is wonderful and it doesn’t have issues but there is detail and substance with the work and it shouldn’t be ignored. They are finishing off a lot of story line work that should have been dealt with last year unfortunately ROH was too slow like a lot of times in pulling the trigger, escalating things, flip flopping hear and there for a lot of the roster. I think what Delirious needs to understand is many people aren’t seeing his long term booking and slight moves, it seems like he needs to make them more immediate and stronger than he has done so far.

Hunter is out of ideas and only has his job because Joe Koff views him and Greg as the sons he never had. Delirious isn't even respected by his locker room. The story of AEW even existing is fascinating because it has more to do with Joe Koff''s obsession with Delirious and Bully Ray than really anyone else. This company has done some really incredibly dumb stuff under the watch of Joe Koff from the purchase to present. Keeping the same booker for over 10 years is probably top of the charts.

[AnHonorableMention]

The thing is I truly don't know who Is available that has enough mind to make a difference

Do you know how many people are in wrestling that know what they are doing and how many people not in it currently, that also would know what they are doing? The answer is, A LOT.

[BurningHammer]

I don't think the matches are a problem it's how the matches lead to other matches. Too much same-same as they say. For example, if Bandido and Scurll have a match, and Rush and Bandido have a match is either going to clearly separate from what you can see in a zillion other places? You need the story of why the matches are taking place to hold great value. That adds to the significance of the match.

I think matches are the main issue ROH doesn't have the roster to cope with using multiple talents within one match, look at how many talents were in the main event of the both shows, your telling me if they had split that up a couple of times and said had Lethal vs Cobb or Jay Briscoe vs Taven that wouldn't have moved more tickets than it did, for me it would. The only way if you are going to do Champions vs All Stars your roster has to be super strong and althought two of the undercard matches I really enjoy as matches the rest just doesn't deliver for me and that's where ROH needs to be a thousand times better as it's upper to midcard can generally be excellent they need a much better undercard and a couple of real top stars to push it along.

He's had two matches back, how possibly could that be enough to say ROH has rebounded him?

You said ROH isn't using matches and Finishes to matter, well they just did it two days in a row with Cobb so I would say yes they have brought him back after loosing so quickly and well.

The excuse of losing Juice, Tamille, and David Finlay falls flat because at the start it was a thrown together group who had absolutely nothing in common. No chemistry & no overall reason to be together established before they came together. Had all of them come in and found that common bond on camera, things for Lifeblood would hold water as the idea behind the group is very good.

I think the Chemistry is their now within matches and it's being shown in that element it just hasn't been nailed down enough or really developed outside of that and I tottally agree on that it's been the worst part of it especially when they had to randomly add PJ I really hated that.

Flip might be the single most overrated and uninspiring talent ROH pushes. Constantly hurt, lacks personality, cannot talk, and doesn't really get booked when healthy to show his strengths. The wins and losses are even, I think now it's a total split but that is not enough to tell a compelling tale anymore.

Flips really only been injured this last year which has been unfortunate but in a way I think it's helped his charachter as he's had the excuse to be the guy that takes out people with never actually getting in the ring. I am very much with you on the speaking part needs to just say silent and he can do that with his change. Just be a silent killer in and out of the ring.

Also with Haskins has now pinned and submitted three of the top guys in ROH that if your looking at it should create a dynamic for him to seen as legitimate contender going forward. Again good booking.

He's where we're gonna high five and fist bump, because this is creative and unique storytelling that flew under the radar for many fans until it was pointed out on commentary. This is the lone positive so far with a guy from Lifeblood fans should hang on to.

As a friend of the family and both men, I can tell you I care what they do. I do not care how they are used. Big difference. The tag division has not been this weak in years. It's quite frankly pathetic. The GOD/Briscoes feud was awesome violent wrestling. But that can only go on so long. Think about the Lifeblood group's goal, restoring honor. Why would they feud with the Briscoes who are literally the lifeblood of the company who are also babyfaces?

It's about the competitive edge a wrestler should have being up against the best and proving you are and getting gold would solidify LifeBlood as something going forward, especially if they go on a long run having great matches, which will then help build towards fans caring about them more in ROH.

I love Shane, I've known him personally for a long time as well. He's had great matches and the booking has not made me care for him once he steps through the ropes. He needs to separate himself with promos and quality matches but also tell his insane life story on air. When people think their childhood sucked, listen to Shane's story and play it out each week on air. Why is he so violent and bent on destruction? It's all he knows. It's literally that simple.

I would agree about his booking up till about a month ago but Shane has really brought out the best of himself with his promo's which booking will have a hand in, the only reason you are going to tell Shanes story is to babyface him more and up till now he has played a heel so their is no point in telling his hard life story, you shouldn't feel sympothy for a heel in anyway. I would totally do that life story if they plan to give him depth and connect more with a wider audience.

As for Ali & LSG and Gresham, all 3 are under utilized and a heel team of Gresham and Lethal vs. baby Briscoes would be the fucking bees knees.

Agreed, don't like the group as I would much rather have Gresham bring in CCK and fued with Lethal, or for the Three man titles

Let's think about this for a second. 'Likely leaving soon' that has been said for months. Give him incentive to stay. Put your top belt on him and not some meaningless jabroni six man belt that is the slut of belts. Everyone has held those belts. They mean nothing. PCO is definitely lost on me, I do not care to see the act over and over. Put the Destro vignettes on TV or do some of your own. Tell his story. Brody King is great, he needs a manager but bell to bell he's a future World Champ.

If he's already stated to everyone backstage he's left why would you give him any incentive, if he was undecided of course that would have been a natural thing to do but going by all reports he has always been leaving. I would never have King with a manager, Destro coming in for PCO at a later date for sure and I wouldn't be surprised if that's coming.

He's the guy who should be feuding with Cobb on top. No question in my mind, he's as good as anyone in this company and a feud with Cobb over the title would drum up significant interest. But you can't just put the belt on the line, that's why booking Cobb to lose to Taven and lose his unpinned streak. You could have run with two unbeaten streaks until Final Battle and had the blow off there with these two doing tags Rush/Lee vs. Cobb/Flamita or whomever would have been great stuff.

Agreed but I can understand the reasoning behind the push RUSH had, he has only really started to develop his english, so he needs time and does the promotion in dealing with how to relay a mexican star to it's audience. He has needed to work on a couple of things as a worker which he obviously has, especially his selling and timing he has become much better within ROH, like most people do.

Dude is hurt badly and shouldn't be in the ring. Needs to be a manager. The Rush and Castle was meh to me. The Joe Hendry thing is historically lame. I like Joe, there's a story I'll tell about him when the time is right that will blow your minds because a very similar story exists with Matt Taven & Delirious. The fact Joe is in ROH with a push right now is hilarious to many of the guys who know the story, including people in the locker room.

Really backstage stuff doesn't doesn't interest me, if bridges have been mended people have put bullshit behind them then just let it stay there.

Josh Woods is as boring as Matt Stryker. Not even the great Silas Young, who is one of my favorite people ever is gonna help that guy matter. The fact Delirious wanted Josh Woods before he wanted Matt Riddle is just tremendous.

If Woods can get it in the ring and that's a big if right now then he will be a huge assest to the company, he looks to have improved a bit but he really needs to work on his moveset and timing, honestly if he just became a guy that threw different suplex's and submited people I would be fine with him, but he try's these weird moves that just don't fit him.

Yeah that is pretty tremendous.

Hunter is out of ideas and only has his job because Joe Koff views him and Greg as the sons he never had. Delirious isn't even respected by his locker room. The story of AEW even existing is fascinating because it has more to do with Joe Koff''s obsession with Delirious and Bully Ray than really anyone else. This company has done some really incredibly dumb stuff under the watch of Joe Koff from the purchase to present. Keeping the same booker for over 10 years is probably top of the charts.

If he is, it's not really going matter because it isn't going to change and until there isn't a sign of growth or betterment then he will be in charge. There are lots going on in the company that they are having to create proper structures for and develop and when you are as small as ROH in the back it's always going to take time and in the fast moving world of wrestling it's hard to survive it.

[AnHonorableMention]

I think matches are the main issue ROH doesn't have the roster to cope with using multiple talents within one match, look at how many talents were in the main event of the both shows, your telling me if they had split that up a couple of times and said had Lethal vs Cobb or Jay Briscoe vs Taven that wouldn't have moved more tickets than it did, for me it would. The only way if you are going to do Champions vs All Stars your roster has to be super strong and althought two of the undercard matches I really enjoy as matches the rest just doesn't deliver for me and that's where ROH needs to be a thousand times better as it's upper to midcard can generally be excellent they need a much better undercard and a couple of real top stars to push it along.

It doesn't matter where the talent is placed, there's nobody must see because they have no layers. Jay Lethal is a great example. He's phenomenal. He's the Franchise. What does that mean, explain it. Add layers to Jay Lethal and when he's beat it means more. It's not about quality but the quantity of good and unique matches combined with the story being told.

You said ROH isn't using matches and Finishes to matter, well they just did it two days in a row with Cobb so I would say yes they have brought him back after loosing so quickly and well.

Winning two matches with no mic time or intentions being declared. Weak effort.

I think the Chemistry is their now within matches and it's being shown in that element it just hasn't been nailed down enough or really developed outside of that and I tottally agree on that it's been the worst part of it especially when they had to randomly add PJ I really hated that.

PJ hasn't been great. To be fair, his body is over its limit of injuries and pain. He had one hell of a future but risky lifestyle choices = current day PJ. You need a reason for 3 randos to be unified, they have to flesh it out. AEW does that. NXT does that, WWE albeit poorly tries. ROH doesn't even do that.

Flips really only been injured this last year which has been unfortunate but in a way I think it's helped his charachter as he's had the excuse to be the guy that takes out people with never actually getting in the ring. I am very much with you on the speaking part needs to just say silent and he can do that with his change. Just be a silent killer in and out of the ring.

What is his character? What makes him a mercenary? He grew a beard joined up with Marty and this is their holdover from being the elite. Again, lazy booking.

It's about the competitive edge a wrestler should have being up against the best and proving you are and getting gold would solidify LifeBlood as something going forward, especially if they go on a long run having great matches, which will then help build towards fans caring about them more in ROH.

Belts don't make the man, the man makes the belts. Getting gold means nothing if they have no reasoning to have it or it feels forced. Putting the belts on them now feels forced. They need a reason to restore honor, and beating the most honorable soldiers of ROH doesn't do that.

I would agree about his booking up till about a month ago but Shane has really brought out the best of himself with his promo's which booking will have a hand in, the only reason you are going to tell Shanes story is to babyface him more and up till now he has played a heel so their is no point in telling his hard life story, you shouldn't feel sympothy for a heel in anyway. I would totally do that life story if they plan to give him depth and connect more with a wider audience.

The whole point was he shouldn't be a heel. He's a guy slamming the big corporate masters, that's babyface stuff in modern times.

Agreed, don't like the group as I would much rather have Gresham bring in CCK and fued with Lethal, or for the Three man titles

The sloot belts need to go, they mean nothing and add nothing. "Because belts" should be the ROH and WWE slogan. Too many belts not enough reasons to care.

If he's already stated to everyone backstage he's left why would you give him any incentive, if he was undecided of course that would have been a natural thing to do but going by all reports he has always been leaving. I would never have King with a manager, Destro coming in for PCO at a later date for sure and I wouldn't be surprised if that's coming.

Any smart businessman wouldn't declare he's leaving. Which means he still has the option to stay. Has he told people he's leaving? Why is he getting booked 50/50? You job a guy out leaving. King with a manager covers his lack of promo skills. Destro should already have been here with King and PCO.

Agreed but I can understand the reasoning behind the push RUSH had, he has only really started to develop his english, so he needs time and does the promotion in dealing with how to relay a mexican star to it's audience. He has needed to work on a couple of things as a worker which he obviously has, especially his selling and timing he has become much better within ROH, like most people do.

Actions speak louder than words, Rush destroying everyone in his path does the talking for him, and he's got the catchphrase already. He's ready, more so than anyone including the king of the honor club girls.

Really backstage stuff doesn't doesn't interest me, if bridges have been mended people have put bullshit behind them then just let it stay there.

It's not bridges or anything it's just people Delirious being so stubborn and to bend so far the other way goes to show far he's willing to go to cover his own ass and keep his job.

If Woods can get it in the ring and that's a big if right now then he will be a huge assest to the company, he looks to have improved a bit but he really needs to work on his moveset and timing, honestly if he just became a guy that threw different suplex's and submited people I would be fine with him, but he try's these weird moves that just don't fit him.

He's the worst guy on the roster. BY FAR. Has no business here.

If he is, it's not really going matter because it isn't going to change and until there isn't a sign of growth or betterment then he will be in charge. There are lots going on in the company that they are having to create proper structures for and develop and when you are as small as ROH in the back it's always going to take time and in the fast moving world of wrestling it's hard to survive it.

He's been on guard when they've killed their business with NJPW, tried to upstage them at the garden with Matt Taven hullabaloo and they've had 8 years to create structure and develop. They had every chance in the world to blow up and end up on TNT but ego came before pride and that is why ROH had 300 people in Nashville, 450 in Atlanta and 650 in Toronto. Egos of men who have done nothing in the business besides be in the right place at the right time. ROH is backed by billionaires with a several million dollar budget. There's no reason outside of non-compelling booking they are on their back. At the end of the day we all want the company to succeed and prosper. Me, because I have friends who work here, and the 3 letters, ROH hold emotional weight with me. If it weren't for that, and Sinclair wrestling died. I'd lose zero sleep.

[BurningHammer]

I think matches are the main issue ROH doesn't have the roster to cope with using multiple talents within one match, look at how many talents were in the main event of the both shows, your telling me if they had split that up a couple of times and said had Lethal vs Cobb or Jay Briscoe vs Taven that wouldn't have moved more tickets than it did, for me it would. The only way if you are going to do Champions vs All Stars your roster has to be super strong and althought two of the undercard matches I really enjoy as matches the rest just doesn't deliver for me and that's where ROH needs to be a thousand times better as it's upper to midcard can generally be excellent they need a much better undercard and a couple of real top stars to push it along.

It doesn't matter where the talent is placed, there's nobody must see because they have no layers. Jay Lethal is a great example. He's phenomenal. He's the Franchise. What does that mean, explain it. Add layers to Jay Lethal and when he's beat it means more. It's not about quality but the quantity of good and unique matches combined with the story being told.

You said ROH isn't using matches and Finishes to matter, well they just did it two days in a row with Cobb so I would say yes they have brought him back after loosing so quickly and well.

Winning two matches with no mic time or intentions being declared. Weak effort.

I think the Chemistry is their now within matches and it's being shown in that element it just hasn't been nailed down enough or really developed outside of that and I tottally agree on that it's been the worst part of it especially when they had to randomly add PJ I really hated that.

PJ hasn't been great. To be fair, his body is over its limit of injuries and pain. He had one hell of a future but risky lifestyle choices = current day PJ. You need a reason for 3 randos to be unified, they have to flesh it out. AEW does that. NXT does that, WWE albeit poorly tries. ROH doesn't even do that.

Flips really only been injured this last year which has been unfortunate but in a way I think it's helped his charachter as he's had the excuse to be the guy that takes out people with never actually getting in the ring. I am very much with you on the speaking part needs to just say silent and he can do that with his change. Just be a silent killer in and out of the ring.

What is his character? What makes him a mercenary? He grew a beard joined up with Marty and this is their holdover from being the elite. Again, lazy booking.

It's about the competitive edge a wrestler should have being up against the best and proving you are and getting gold would solidify LifeBlood as something going forward, especially if they go on a long run having great matches, which will then help build towards fans caring about them more in ROH.

Belts don't make the man, the man makes the belts. Getting gold means nothing if they have no reasoning to have it or it feels forced. Putting the belts on them now feels forced. They need a reason to restore honor, and beating the most honorable soldiers of ROH doesn't do that.

I would agree about his booking up till about a month ago but Shane has really brought out the best of himself with his promo's which booking will have a hand in, the only reason you are going to tell Shanes story is to babyface him more and up till now he has played a heel so their is no point in telling his hard life story, you shouldn't feel sympothy for a heel in anyway. I would totally do that life story if they plan to give him depth and connect more with a wider audience.

The whole point was he shouldn't be a heel. He's a guy slamming the big corporate masters, that's babyface stuff in modern times.

Agreed, don't like the group as I would much rather have Gresham bring in CCK and fued with Lethal, or for the Three man titles

The sloot belts need to go, they mean nothing and add nothing. "Because belts" should be the ROH and WWE slogan. Too many belts not enough reasons to care.

If he's already stated to everyone backstage he's left why would you give him any incentive, if he was undecided of course that would have been a natural thing to do but going by all reports he has always been leaving. I would never have King with a manager, Destro coming in for PCO at a later date for sure and I wouldn't be surprised if that's coming.

Any smart businessman wouldn't declare he's leaving. Which means he still has the option to stay. Has he told people he's leaving? Why is he getting booked 50/50? You job a guy out leaving. King with a manager covers his lack of promo skills. Destro should already have been here with King and PCO.

Agreed but I can understand the reasoning behind the push RUSH had, he has only really started to develop his english, so he needs time and does the promotion in dealing with how to relay a mexican star to it's audience. He has needed to work on a couple of things as a worker which he obviously has, especially his selling and timing he has become much better within ROH, like most people do.

Actions speak louder than words, Rush destroying everyone in his path does the talking for him, and he's got the catchphrase already. He's ready, more so than anyone including the king of the honor club girls.

Really backstage stuff doesn't doesn't interest me, if bridges have been mended people have put bullshit behind them then just let it stay there.

It's not bridges or anything it's just people Delirious being so stubborn and to bend so far the other way goes to show far he's willing to go to cover his own ass and keep his job.

If Woods can get it in the ring and that's a big if right now then he will be a huge assest to the company, he looks to have improved a bit but he really needs to work on his moveset and timing, honestly if he just became a guy that threw different suplex's and submited people I would be fine with him, but he try's these weird moves that just don't fit him.

He's the worst guy on the roster. BY FAR. Has no business here.

If he is, it's not really going matter because it isn't going to change and until there isn't a sign of growth or betterment then he will be in charge. There are lots going on in the company that they are having to create proper structures for and develop and when you are as small as ROH in the back it's always going to take time and in the fast moving world of wrestling it's hard to survive it.

He's been on guard when they've killed their business with NJPW, tried to upstage them at the garden with Matt Taven hullabaloo and they've had 8 years to create structure and develop. They had every chance in the world to blow up and end up on TNT but ego came before pride and that is why ROH had 300 people in Nashville, 450 in Atlanta and 650 in Toronto. Egos of men who have done nothing in the business besides be in the right place at the right time. ROH is backed by billionaires with a several million dollar budget. There's no reason outside of non-compelling booking they are on their back. At the end of the day we all want the company to succeed and prosper. Me, because I have friends who work here, and the 3 letters, ROH hold emotional weight with me. If it weren't for that, and Sinclair wrestling died. I'd lose zero sleep.

I'm am going to try keep it short on this as I just don't think we are really getting anywhere,

But the reasons for Lethal's stature in ROH has long been explained more times than I can remember, I have heard and been told countless times in build-up and during his matches what he has accomplished in the company and honestly just his longevity of consistency in the ring would tell any audience that without ever getting being told the details.

So, hang on it's not the matches or wins but now the mic time, I do think you need to make up your mind because the moments in the ring matter when they lead somewhere it doesn't always need mic time. Also, the less Cobb stays away from the mic the better really, he is way to bland to really be the face of a company in that regard.

Flip has explained money was his motive, commentary did that too, again not lazy booking too me.

I don't believe that at all, if that was the case the biggest title in each company would mean jack shit, a man can enhance the belt, it's prestige but only booking and protection can guarantee it matters. Look at Nigel he even has said he felt he was floundering until the match Brian that match made him and his championship rain go up to being a top five champ. Matches can make any guy and that's what Taven needs he needs someone to shed this gimmick for him, to create a man people can except and go yeah he has got it, bleed for the belt ala a Steve Corino and he will go down as a very good champion.

Why shouldn't he, just because of his story he shouldn't be a heel that doesn't make any sense, this story should have been told a long time ago really but that doesn't mean it won’t be and it doesn't mean it can't get him over in the end.

The thing RUSH destroying everyone in his path can only lead to one thing you need that one amazing guy to be able to take him, else who is going to believable, right now the booking has created a nature where he is real, he can be hurt but he can't be put down. You need that sympathy within in someone else you'll just get a Golberg tazer moment.

On I'm not saying he is isn't, although i think TK, The Bouncers, Cheeseburger give him a run for his moment and I just think he can improve and get to a good level, considering his wrestling and MMA background he should be able to produce something. I think he needs more wrestlers around him to bring the best out of him, get him in with the likes of Gresham, Williams, etc or people like Yehi and Stevens he would improve and I think show his capabilities

I have never said there haven't been huge errors in judgement, I was banging that drum on here about all of this for a long time and it all started when the likes of Kyle, Fish, Cole etc left something happened internally, I have no idea what but there was a loss of something that made ROH great. Unless it was the fact that just thought right, we will put all our eggs in the Bucks, Marty and Lethal as they can take us to the top or keep as a good level and everything else underneath doesn't really matter. Then they left which I didn't think they saw coming for whatever reason, especially when the rumours were there for a while. Their budget compared to most especially when they have to deal with production levels, payment structures isn't enough to deliver something like AEW, I'm sure even AEW right now is loosing money unless a lot of it isn't internal from companies they own. ROH is a lot like Sinclair as a whole it's slow, conservative in it's approach lacking a modern edge but is trying to develop one. Buying the sports networks that they have I will allow ROH to develop because there people in there that have an forward thinking mind, because sports has to be presented in a certain way.

I think there is something beginning to show for ROH, there is a realisation that things had to change that they needed to wake up and do something about all this. It might be too late I don't know but if ROH can just keep plugging away, delivering for the most part, not doing stupid shit with Caz and Enzo or Bully Ray being a complete dick then they should be fine in the end they just need space from it all which they haven't got yet. A string of sell outs or good crowds will certainly get the trollish nature away from them too and hopefully with the next set of shows they will, and things will look much better for them. Well I didn't keep it short but there you go.

[AnHonorableMention]

I'm am going to try keep it short on this as I just don't think we are really getting anywhere,

But the reasons for Lethal's stature in ROH has long been explained more times than I can remember, I have heard and been told countless times in build-up and during his matches what he has accomplished in the company and honestly just his longevity of consistency in the ring would tell any audience that without ever getting being told the details.

Always operate to the lowest common denominator. Beat them over the head with this and his matches will mean more.

So, hang on it's not the matches or wins but now the mic time, I do think you need to make up your mind because the moments in the ring matter when they lead somewhere it doesn't always need mic time. Also, the less Cobb stays away from the mic the better really, he is way to bland to really be the face of a company in that regard.

Everything needs detailed and thorough explanations. When you're growing an audience and need to desperately do so, you have to come with guns a blazing. Matches, moments and booking matter. No room for lapses in any spectrum. Cobb has to learn to talk. How is he going to be featured if he can't find time to get great at talking?

Flip has explained money was his motive, commentary did that too, again not lazy booking too me.

He's an ROH contracted wrestler, this logic doesn't play. A heel turn earns him a bonus from a company owned by low moral heels?

I don't believe that at all, if that was the case the biggest title in each company would mean jack shit, a man can enhance the belt, it's prestige but only booking and protection can guarantee it matters. Look at Nigel he even has said he felt he was floundering until the match Brian that match made him and his championship rain go up to being a top five champ. Matches can make any guy and that's what Taven needs he needs someone to shed this gimmick for him, to create a man people can except and go yeah he has got it, bleed for the belt ala a Steve Corino and he will go down as a very good champion.

He's going to go down as the worst drawing champion in company history for someone that had the belt for 6 months or more. That's sad.

Why shouldn't he, just because of his story he shouldn't be a heel that doesn't make any sense, this story should have been told a long time ago really but that doesn't mean it won’t be and it doesn't mean it can't get him over in the end.

Some people need to be a heel before they go face and vice versa. With Shane they went the wrong way early.

The thing RUSH destroying everyone in his path can only lead to one thing you need that one amazing guy to be able to take him, else who is going to believable, right now the booking has created a nature where he is real, he can be hurt but he can't be put down. You need that sympathy within in someone else you'll just get a Golberg tazer moment.

Cobb vs. Rush is box office. There's no way it's not. It's an ROH throwback. They need to be able to create magic together and right now Matt Taven is having solid matches nobody cares about.

On I'm not saying he is isn't, although i think TK, The Bouncers, Cheeseburger give him a run for his moment and I just think he can improve and get to a good level, considering his wrestling and MMA background he should be able to produce something. I think he needs more wrestlers around him to bring the best out of him, get him in with the likes of Gresham, Williams, etc or people like Yehi and Stevens he would improve and I think show his capabilities.

The Bouncers are fun, and Burger tries very hard. They also connect with the crowd where Woods does not. Erick won't be back, sadly.

I have never said there haven't been huge errors in judgement, I was banging that drum on here about all of this for a long time and it all started when the likes of Kyle, Fish, Cole etc left something happened internally, I have no idea what but there was a loss of something that made ROH great. Unless it was the fact that just thought right, we will put all our eggs in the Bucks, Marty and Lethal as they can take us to the top or keep as a good level and everything else underneath doesn't really matter. Then they left which I didn't think they saw coming for whatever reason, especially when the rumours were there for a while. Their budget compared to most especially when they have to deal with production levels, payment structures isn't enough to deliver something like AEW, I'm sure even AEW right now is loosing money unless a lot of it isn't internal from companies they own. ROH is a lot like Sinclair as a whole it's slow, conservative in it's approach lacking a modern edge but is trying to develop one. Buying the sports networks that they have I will allow ROH to develop because there people in there that have an forward thinking mind, because sports has to be presented in a certain way.

George Carroll's exit was a big step down for ROH. Not matching money for Kyle & Bobby was ridiculous. Adam was gone regardless and betting on guys without rewarding loyalty as they did with Cody & The Bucks is enough to tell me Koff & Co. think they're above the talent. It's a sad state of affairs. If you're relying on the dojo as new talent it's gonna end badly. Like a plane crash. AEW is running in the black as of last note. TNT money already rolling in.

I think there is something beginning to show for ROH, there is a realisation that things had to change that they needed to wake up and do something about all this. It might be too late I don't know but if ROH can just keep plugging away, delivering for the most part, not doing stupid shit with Caz and Enzo or Bully Ray being a complete dick then they should be fine in the end they just need space from it all which they haven't got yet. A string of sell outs or good crowds will certainly get the trollish nature away from them too and hopefully with the next set of shows they will, and things will look much better for them. Well I didn't keep it short but there you go.

The last sell out was the garden, I don't think you'll see another sell out in 2019 or 2020.

[BurningHammer]

Always operate to the lowest common denominator. Beat them over the head with this and his matches will mean more.

what about returning consumers though. I've heard Lethal's credentials enough times that it just becomes overplayed, no problem with a reminder but that's totally WWE logic right there and has a negative affect on the product, but that's my opinion.

Everything needs detailed and thorough explanations. When you're growing an audience and need to desperately do so, you have to come with guns a blazing. Matches, moments and booking matter. No room for lapses in any spectrum. Cobb has to learn to talk. How is he going to be featured if he can't find time to get great at talking?

Does it though, does a charachter and situation in a book need totaly detail and explanation or should it be left up to the reader observer to make up their own minds as too what they are trying to say. I'm all for detail overall and ROH needs a lot more totally agree there but there does need to be a space where you hide people's weaknesses and I think with Cobb it can create a sense of weakness in him which might not be the right the thing but they did a detailed video of him and his life before the Taven match, it's not like we don't know Cobb's story and life.

He's an ROH contracted wrestler, this logic doesn't play. A heel turn earns him a bonus from a company owned by low moral heels?

Marty gives him that extra cash to do his dirty work and for Flips it's all about the money he had the taste of fame with the Bucks and this is his way of getting it. It also ties in with his millitary background. It's certainly not a fleshed out charachter but it's getting there, look at the Williams promo they posted, it add's something to both of them.

He's going to go down as the worst drawing champion in company history for someone that had the belt for 6 months or more. That's sad.

Yeah it is, I'm sure it will be a hard pill to swallow but if he has the backing from the guys in the locker room and the higher ups he will feel fine about it in the end. He knows he's quality and that's important too, someone had to go through this and Taven was that guy and more power to him for not backing down and the same for the company too. I appreciate that.

Some people need to be a heel before they go face and vice versa. With Shane they went the wrong way early.

Yeah I think they probably did, I still think they can, from what I can tell he's just starting to get traction so the last thing he needs is too loose the belt get him going stronger and stronger and this will work then the turn and his life story.

Cobb vs. Rush is box office. There's no way it's not. It's an ROH throwback. They need to be able to create magic together and right now Matt Taven is having solid matches nobody cares about..

I don't think Taven is having just solid matches and I find Cobb too be slightly overated but yeah it's a match I think will draw and hopefully deliver ring wise.

The Bouncers are fun, and Burger tries very hard. They also connect with the crowd where Woods does not. Erick won't be back, sadly

I don't find anything about the Bouncera to be fun, they just feel a cheap act with not a lot going for them, yeah he does but sadly he is very obviously not a wrestler and the idea of having someone called Cheeseburger in ROH has always made it hard for me to ever like him.

George Carroll's exit was a big step down for ROH. Not matching money for Kyle & Bobby was ridiculous. Adam was gone regardless and betting on guys without rewarding loyalty as they did with Cody & The Bucks is enough to tell me Koff & Co. think they're above the talent. It's a sad state of affairs. If you're relying on the dojo as new talent it's gonna end badly. Like a plane crash. AEW is running in the black as of last note. TNT money already rolling in.

I don't think it will end badly as I think Future of Honor should flush the bad from the good and if you watch it you'll get to know the wrestlers there and they should have more of impact in the future. Every wrestler has to start somewhere and why not an MJF, Low Ki etc starting at the Dojo anything is possible in that realm, just needs to the talent to come and start becoming a wrestler.

The last sell out was the garden, I don't think you'll see another sell out in 2019 or 2020.

Maybe you never know, wrestling can change pretty quickly.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

I think my problem with ROH is that, while for the most part the matches are fine, I have zero investment in the storylines. The lone exception is The Briscoes vs. Guerillas of Destiny, which was boosted by the promo skills of Jay Briscoe and Tama Tonga.

Why Rush isn't using the Los Ingernobles merch blows my mind. I know they are prepping him for the inevitable feud with Taven, but I have no faith that this is something to care about.

Delirious had an opportunity to start from scratch this year and really go balls out with the booking. Eight months later it's nothing new. We are treading in a sea of retarded sexuality.

[AnHonorableMention]

what about returning consumers though. I've heard Lethal's credentials enough times that it just becomes overplayed, no problem with a reminder but that's totally WWE logic right there and has a negative affect on the product, but that's my opinion.

Returning consumers don't need to be sold because they keep returning. If you see a loss of returning fans then you are where you are now, in the middle of a problem.

Does it though, does a charachter and situation in a book need totaly detail and explanation or should it be left up to the reader observer to make up their own minds as too what they are trying to say. I'm all for detail overall and ROH needs a lot more totally agree there but there does need to be a space where you hide people's weaknesses and I think with Cobb it can create a sense of weakness in him which might not be the right the thing but they did a detailed video of him and his life before the Taven match, it's not like we don't know Cobb's story and life.

A good booker highlights the positives and covers up the negatives while still working with said wrestler on his negatives. Delirious has a career of the same promo. Bubba's best stuff would never fly in 2019. Who is there to help Cobb? With that background video you got a sense of who he is fighting for. Now you have to tell the story of in front of an audience.

Marty gives him that extra cash to do his dirty work and for Flips it's all about the money he had the taste of fame with the Bucks and this is his way of getting it. It also ties in with his millitary background. It's certainly not a fleshed out charachter but it's getting there, look at the Williams promo they posted, it add's something to both of them.

I'll have to check the promo out! While that logic is very obvious, why not get creative? Let Flip speak on flashbacks of war realizing that once he felt abandoned and when finally he felt himself he truly was on the wrong side of the war and now he's on the right side of the war with lifeblood as part of villain enterprises. Just off the top of my head that could be fleshed out and used to further him slipping into realizing the error of his ways and a year or so down the line turning face.

Yeah it is, I'm sure it will be a hard pill to swallow but if he has the backing from the guys in the locker room and the higher ups he will feel fine about it in the end. He knows he's quality and that's important too, someone had to go through this and Taven was that guy and more power to him for not backing down and the same for the company too. I appreciate that.

Considering the news of today regarding Taven's contract we can take the idea Marty was pushed aside due to a contract issue.

Yeah I think they probably did, I still think they can, from what I can tell he's just starting to get traction so the last thing he needs is too loose the belt get him going stronger and stronger and this will work then the turn and his life story.

He loses the belt now, he gets angry, you give him a reason to be pissed off even more. Attacking everyone, creating a hit list, and that hit list plays off the Cody list.

I don't think Taven is having just solid matches and I find Cobb too be slightly overated but yeah it's a match I think will draw and hopefully deliver ring wise.

Solid matches has me sad. I remember when a solid Samoa Joe match created a revolt.

I don't find anything about the Bouncera to be fun, they just feel a cheap act with not a lot going for them, yeah he does but sadly he is very obviously not a wrestler and the idea of having someone called Cheeseburger in ROH has always made it hard for me to ever like him.

It's a cheap act for sure but wrestling is about shapes, sizes, looks, and being unique. They fit the box of being completely unique compared to everyone else in ROH. With Burger, he's small, but does the name of the performer really impact how good he is in the ring? Burger isn't Jay Lethal, but in the role he's in, he gets a great reaction.

I don't think it will end badly as I think Future of Honor should flush the bad from the good and if you watch it you'll get to know the wrestlers there and they should have more of impact in the future. Every wrestler has to start somewhere and why not an MJF, Low Ki etc starting at the Dojo anything is possible in that realm, just needs to the talent to come and start becoming a wrestler.

If they create another Low Ki we're all in trouble. As for MJF, they could have had him. Delirious said no because he didn't look the part. Everyone starts somewhere, yes. But the talent pool is so shallow now, you must spend to be competitive. That means free agents need to be signed from other companies.

Maybe you never know, wrestling can change pretty quickly.

Like any good business you always forecast six to twelve months forward. ROH has done a very poor job of that since the SBG purchase.

[BurningHammer]

Returning consumers don't need to be sold because they keep returning. If you see a loss of returning fans then you are where you are now, in the middle of a problem.

I think returning customers need to be sold onto the product differently, there needs to be evolution, betterment of the men and women you’ve invested, interest higtened in certain areas. You can layer that with reminders or focus on new consumers but there is a point where it becomes repetitive and a turn off. Ian has done a very good job of this recently.

A good booker highlights the positives and covers up the negatives while still working with said wrestler on his negatives. Delirious has a career of the same promo. Bubba's best stuff would never fly in 2019. Who is there to help Cobb? With that background video you got a sense of who he is fighting for. Now you have to tell the story of in front of an audience.

I have no idea who is helping Cobb but there seems to be people helping overall because promos are improving most of the time. There are only a couple now where I don’t believe or feel awkward during their segments so something is happening.

I'll have to check the promo out! While that logic is very obvious, why not get creative? Let Flip speak on flashbacks of war realizing that once he felt abandoned and when finally he felt himself he truly was on the wrong side of the war and now he's on the right side of the war with lifeblood as part of villain enterprises. Just off the top of my head that could be fleshed out and used to further him slipping into realizing the error of his ways and a year or so down the line turning face.

It’s nothing amazing but it does show both characters to an extent and where they ended with each other. Do they need evolve this now and get deeper yes and that’s going to be the next challenge and where things need to get much better generally.

Considering the news of today regarding Taven's contract we can take the idea Marty was pushed aside due to a contract issue.

I’d imagine it was just to get away from the All Elite thing totally, rightly or wrongly ROH is set on a different trajectory with a guy gunning for the title that isn’t associated to them and more to ROH, that’s important. It should be a fan choice as well as a company choice. I don’t think Marty should be champ just because it pleases a section of the wrestling fan base. Do what you do and deal with consequences as long as you have an idea to get better.

He loses the belt now, he gets angry, you give him a reason to be pissed off even more. Attacking everyone, creating a hit list, and that hit list plays off the Cody list.

Personally I would have him with the title for a bit longer, it will mean more, fans hopefully will continue to connect to him and with more star making matches people will enjoy his destruction of the roster.

Solid matches has me sad. I remember when a solid Samoa Joe match created a revolt.

But that’s down to things changing in wrestling as a whole and I don’t know if that could happen in a Sinclair run ROH, if a fan got hurt during things would end really badly. I think ROH does need that fan connection where there brawling in the crowd or someone jumping the rails etc. I think if you have a group like LOS in ROH you have a very ‘Street’ group which could bring that back.

It's a cheap act for sure but wrestling is about shapes, sizes, looks, and being unique. They fit the box of being completely unique compared to everyone else in ROH. With Burger, he's small, but does the name of the performer really impact how good he is in the ring? Burger isn't Jay Lethal, but in the role he's in, he gets a great reaction.

I agree but there are better fat/big guys going today that actually have teeth and can go in the ring. To me a name matters a huge deal, it creates a sense of credibility, calling someone Cheeseburger, is immediately the funny side of wrestling that’s bad. Cheeseburger could have been a Mikey Whipreck type but with a name like Cheeseburger, he’s just be a trying joke for me no matter how hard he tries. Future of Honor will be the best place for him.

Like any good business you always forecast six to twelve months forward. ROH has done a very poor job of that since the SBG purchase.

I will say guys leaving has been the biggest cause of that. But I would say we know where the next six months is headed as they know who’s leaving I would guess and looks to be planning accordingly

[AnHonorableMention]

I think returning customers need to be sold onto the product differently, there needs to be evolution, betterment of the men and women you’ve invested, interest higtened in certain areas. You can layer that with reminders or focus on new consumers but there is a point where it becomes repetitive and a turn off. Ian has done a very good job of this recently.

I'll put myself on the island here, I am have been accused of being an ROH employee before, because during the Cary era I spoke so highly. Now I'm in the element where I am saddened by what ROH has become, I am the demographic they need to hit the disenfranchised fan.

I have no idea who is helping Cobb but there seems to be people helping overall because promos are improving most of the time. There are only a couple now where I don’t believe or feel awkward during their segments so something is happening.

Bubba is working with Cobb but even the people I was around this weekend in Chicago have said the business has passed him by. Cobb's promos will get better with a promo coach, someone who was actually good at promos.

It’s nothing amazing but it does show both characters to an extent and where they ended with each other. Do they need evolve this now and get deeper yes and that’s going to be the next challenge and where things need to get much better generally.

They won't go deeper, it's not what ROH does anymore.

I’d imagine it was just to get away from the All Elite thing totally, rightly or wrongly ROH is set on a different trajectory with a guy gunning for the title that isn’t associated to them and more to ROH, that’s important. It should be a fan choice as well as a company choice. I don’t think Marty should be champ just because it pleases a section of the wrestling fan base. Do what you do and deal with consequences as long as you have an idea to get better.

Who sells the most merch? Marty. Who gets the biggest reaction on live shows? Marty. Who has better matches? Marty. Whose contract lasts longer? Marty. They have no idea to get better and have idiots, and bigots running the company.

Personally I would have him with the title for a bit longer, it will mean more, fans hopefully will continue to connect to him and with more star making matches people will enjoy his destruction of the roster.

Which turns him babyface, something you said you didn't think was right.

But that’s down to things changing in wrestling as a whole and I don’t know if that could happen in a Sinclair run ROH, if a fan got hurt during things would end really badly. I think ROH does need that fan connection where there brawling in the crowd or someone jumping the rails etc. I think if you have a group like LOS in ROH you have a very ‘Street’ group which could bring that back

Could have had Suzuki Gun this year if you didn't alienate your relationship with NJPW.

I agree but there are better fat/big guys going today that actually have teeth and can go in the ring. To me a name matters a huge deal, it creates a sense of credibility, calling someone Cheeseburger, is immediately the funny side of wrestling that’s bad. Cheeseburger could have been a Mikey Whipreck type but with a name like Cheeseburger, he’s just be a trying joke for me no matter how hard he tries. Future of Honor will be the best place for him.

So should people laugh at Roman Reigns? The Rock? The funny side of wrestling isn't bad, it's a side of wrestling just like the lucha side, the strong style side, and the european side, etc. Burger works his ass off, and deserves a ton of credit. Hell he may end up with Liger's retirement match.

I will say guys leaving has been the biggest cause of that. But I would say we know where the next six months is headed as they know who’s leaving I would guess and looks to be planning accordingly

I would assume they probably know chances many are leaving. However, the wrestler will not tell them, as it takes negotiation leverage away. I had a couple conversations at Starrcast and All Out this weekend, this company is in a lot more trouble than anyone knows from a talent standpoint. The office staff is a venerable mess, and at no point does it seem anyone in Sinclair corporate cares. Good news is the company is so stupid, they won't know this company has turned into a money pit for two more years so you got that time line before this thing is sold to Tony Khan or Vince.

[BurningHammer]

I'll put myself on the island here, I am have been accused of being an ROH employee before, because during the Cary era I spoke so highly. Now I'm in the element where I am saddened by what ROH has become, I am the demographic they need to hit the disenfranchised fan.

There's quite a few of those and it takes time to reconnect with that, I don't think it's impossible though.

Bubba is working with Cobb but even the people I was around this weekend in Chicago have said the business has passed him by. Cobb's promos will get better with a promo coach, someone who was actually good at promos.

Bubba was good at promo's in terms of how he said it and what he wanted to convery, was he a complete piece of shit in what he said yes but you look at his delivery and they way he went around his promo's he did it very well. I just don't believe Cobb feels comfortable in that element of wrestling, he has never really had a defined charachter to have to do that, so it's going to about finding that something inside him to get him to that point of being able to deliver the personality he wants.

They won't go deeper, it's not what ROH does anymore.

Maybe I never thought we can get consise and realtively lucid booking but we are now so I really can't say what's around the corner.

Who sells the most merch? Marty. Who gets the biggest reaction on live shows? Marty. Who has better matches? Marty. Whose contract lasts longer? Marty. They have no idea to get better and have idiots, and bigots running the company.

I think they have every idea, you don't think they know who's contract last's longer, who sells the Merch etc, of course they do. They just wanted someone different rightly or wrongly. I have no idea if these men are bigots or not most of them in long term relationships in a bussiness that isn't normally known for it. you mean that man that is very overrated in the ring, is one of the worst guys for calling spots loudly, just look at the full blown conversation he had with King during the tag match last weekend, I have never seen call it that loudly in ROH it was embarrising and don't get me started on his selling, it feels so forced for so much of the time. He's got really lazy in his work over the years.

Which turns him babyface, something you said you didn't think was right.

I'm saying how to do it if you want to turn him babyface, if ROH want's to keep him as a heel there is not point in any of these ideas. You can see Taylor evolving anyone he isn't just that Bully Ray heel guy, he is digging into ROH prying out the truth about how he has been treated so they are turning him to a point but I imagine they will keep his edge for a while.

Could have had Suzuki Gun this year if you didn't alienate your relationship with NJPW.

you could also turn even more into Rev Pro and completely shadow your company with New Japan talent and make a complete fudge of everything else in your company. Thankfully ROH is trying to move away from that and use it sparingly which should be the case.

So should people laugh at Roman Reigns? The Rock? The funny side of wrestling isn't bad, it's a side of wrestling just like the lucha side, the strong style side, and the european side, etc. Burger works his ass off, and deserves a ton of credit. Hell he may end up with Liger's retirement match.

I never side the funny side of wrestling was bad, there is a funny side that works, like Kurt Angle, Edge and Christian, the Rock, Spike Duddley, Luchasaurus and JungleBoy. Cheeseburger is the type that doesn't it's the type makes it cringey and cheap no matter how hard the guy work he just doesn't make me feel like wrestling could be taken seriously, at least with a guy like Mikey Whipreck you could, you could believe in his charachter and his name helped with that.

I would assume they probably know chances many are leaving. However, the wrestler will not tell them, as it takes negotiation leverage away. I had a couple conversations at Starrcast and All Out this weekend, this company is in a lot more trouble than anyone knows from a talent standpoint. The office staff is a venerable mess, and at no point does it seem anyone in Sinclair corporate cares. Good news is the company is so stupid, they won't know this company has turned into a money pit for two more years so you got that time line before this thing is sold to Tony Khan or Vince.

Awesome, can't wait for it too crumble good times for most people then it seems.....

I'm guessing these contracts are, Brody, Castle, Marty, Taven, Cobb and Bandido maybe PJ and I don't know if PCO was a one year deal. Overall if all those guys leave it sucks but considering age, injuries etc I can deal with all those guys leaving as I think there are better wrestlers etc out there, but that certainly wont be as over.

[AnHonorableMention]

There's quite a few of those and it takes time to reconnect with that, I don't think it's impossible though.

Definitely not impossible but every day grows less likely. I know after what I saw in Chicago Saturday could never be met with the current storytelling in ROH.

Bubba was good at promo's in terms of how he said it and what he wanted to convery, was he a complete piece of shit in what he said yes but you look at his delivery and they way he went around his promo's he did it very well. I just don't believe Cobb feels comfortable in that element of wrestling, he has never really had a defined charachter to have to do that, so it's going to about finding that something inside him to get him to that point of being able to deliver the personality he wants.

Bubba was fine at promos if they were about insulting mothers, oral sex, or some other vein, 2019 inappropriate context. He's making up for the fact he's a bitter fuck about never getting over anywhere important as a single.

As for Jeff Cobb's character, the booker's job is to get his character out of him, or find something to put him in. I think we all know how that's going.

Maybe I never thought we can get consise and realtively lucid booking but we are now so I really can't say what's around the corner.

Today's ROH is lucid & consicice? Are you actually watching?

I think they have every idea, you don't think they know who's contract last's longer, who sells the Merch etc, of course they do. They just wanted someone different rightly or wrongly. I have no idea if these men are bigots or not most of them in long term relationships in a bussiness that isn't normally known for it. you mean that man that is very overrated in the ring, is one of the worst guys for calling spots loudly, just look at the full blown conversation he had with King during the tag match last weekend, I have never seen call it that loudly in ROH it was embarrising and don't get me started on his selling, it feels so forced for so much of the time. He's got really lazy in his work over the years.

Sinclair in general are a right wing christian fundamentalist organization. One talent who was told he was good enough to work for ROH but wasn't hired was called a "loud mouthed gay" direct quote. Not putting the belt on a guy people care about in favor of a lifetime jobber is a going out of your way to spite a guy decision. Delirious is pretty consistent with those. The spot calling was audible because you had high quality gear being used in front of 300 people.

I'm saying how to do it if you want to turn him babyface, if ROH want's to keep him as a heel there is not point in any of these ideas. You can see Taylor evolving anyone he isn't just that Bully Ray heel guy, he is digging into ROH prying out the truth about how he has been treated so they are turning him to a point but I imagine they will keep his edge for a while.

Considering their affiliation with Trump maybe Shane should call them out on that, if he really wants to pry ROH into treating him right

you could also turn even more into Rev Pro and completely shadow your company with New Japan talent and make a complete fudge of everything else in your company. Thankfully ROH is trying to move away from that and use it sparingly which should be the case.

So let's think about this, you want to turn down the the legendary Minoru Suzuki, Lance Archer, Zack Sabre Jr, and think the booking is lucid. ROH is moving away from NJPW because nobody from NJPW wants to work with the idiots in charge of ROH.

I never side the funny side of wrestling was bad, there is a funny side that works, like Kurt Angle, Edge and Christian, the Rock, Spike Duddley, Luchasaurus and JungleBoy. Cheeseburger is the type that doesn't it's the type makes it cringey and cheap no matter how hard the guy work he just doesn't make me feel like wrestling could be taken seriously, at least with a guy like Mikey Whipreck you could, you could believe in his charachter and his name helped with that.

So let me get this right, a dude called Jungleboy is more serious and better use of comedy than what Cheeseburger is? If Burger had a different name would you have a different feeling about him? What do you think of Marko Stunt?

Awesome, can't wait for it too crumble good times for most people then it seems.....

I'm guessing these contracts are, Brody, Castle, Marty, Taven, Cobb and Bandido maybe PJ and I don't know if PCO was a one year deal. Overall if all those guys leave it sucks but considering age, injuries etc I can deal with all those guys leaving as I think there are better wrestlers etc out there, but that certainly wont be as over.

Nobody wants to see ROH die. Those 3 letters mean a hell of a lot to me personally and always will. The people in charge however could all never be heard from again and they wouldn't be missed. Everyone except Taven & PCO would likely land with AEW if ROH died. They still might. PCO is a one hit wonder and I grow so tired of the act the more I see it.

[BurningHammer]

Definitely not impossible but every day grows less likely. I know after what I saw in Chicago Saturday could never be met with the current storytelling in ROH.

From what I've heard it was an average show with two matches being great, while all the time NXT UK had the better show, so if that's the case wrestling as a whole in trouble. They have a 48 year old champion way past his prime, the guy that was voted the best wrestler in the world, having the most insane matches in the midcard. Women no selling each other during a match. Two wrestlers in a three way that should never actually be on a TV wrestling promotion. A VP that's putting himself over to the hilt, scaring the shit out dogs, a wrestler with the biggest smile each time she is out there having the time of her life, then somehow unhappy. If ROH did any of these they would be absolutely crucified, but with AEW it's just teething problems when they have more money than god and the time to do it properly.

Bubba was fine at promos if they were about insulting mothers, oral sex, or some other vein, 2019 inappropriate context. He's making up for the fact he's a bitter fuck about never getting over anywhere important as a single.

Wether or not he got over as a singles star, I'm sure he isn't that bitter considering he's probably a millionaire and was part of an excellent tag team, more than most can say in this business really. Like I say teaching someone about delivering a promo wont just be about what he says, it will about style of delivery, the emotion it will bring out of the audience etc. I'm sure Bully is intelligent enough to be able to do that.

As for Jeff Cobb's character, the booker's job is to get his character out of him, or find something to put him in. I think we all know how that's going.

Apart from Lucha U when he was a completely different person has there been any other version of this Cobb, from I have seen no there hasn't. Maybe just maybe Cobb isn't great at personality driven wrestling and he is just an in ring guy. It isn't always about the booker, which I think is something people are finding hard to understand.

Today's ROH is lucid & consicice? Are you actually watching?

Yes I am watch everything, story lines are being linked together in multi man matches in so many different angles, we are getting more fueds that have progressed over every show while also delivering them in a new way every single time, fueds from the are being brought back to the present in different formats to make them relevant. The booking and creation of cards is the best it's been in terms of flow from one to other without forgetting about previous storylines in sometime. If you can't see that then we are watching a completely different product right now.

Sinclair in general are a right wing christian fundamentalist organization. One talent who was told he was good enough to work for ROH but wasn't hired was called a "loud mouthed gay" direct quote. Not putting the belt on a guy people care about in favor of a lifetime jobber is a going out of your way to spite a guy decision. Delirious is pretty consistent with those. The spot calling was audible because you had high quality gear being used in front of 300 people.

This isn't the first time I've heard him or seen been very obvious with it, and it's not like ROH in past glories had that type of number and rarely did I see it or hear it even with the camera's close up. Marty is just generally poor at hidding it, you know you can critisicise a wrestler it's not all about ROH having issues.

I think I'm getting done with the conversation in general now, you throwing out shit people may have or have not said isn't for me, especially when they aren't here to defend themselves and you saying direct quote isn't going to help the matter. Overall if there is such a problem then maybe wrestlers should speak up, it's not like ROH is in a possition to black ball anyone anymore, there are far to many promotions and ROH isn't near the top to have that power, so if people want to speak out they should for the sake of everyone.

Considering their affiliation with Trump maybe Shane should call them out on that, if he really wants to pry ROH into treating him right.

You say Sinclair doesn't give a shit about ROH but then apparently their politics feed into the product and it's a really pro Trump product. Seems wierd when you have a really pro Lucha company while apparently being pro Trump, go figure on that one.

So let's think about this, you want to turn down the the legendary Minoru Suzuki, Lance Archer, Zack Sabre Jr, and think the booking is lucid. ROH is moving away from NJPW because nobody from NJPW wants to work with the idiots in charge of ROH.

It's mainly because ROH isn't going yes please be our champions, Rev Pro has completely lost it's way as a promotion, if it wasn't for New Japan it would have died away ages ago. Apart from a couple of guys the most over talent are the New Japan guys and that isn't healthy for the UK scene or a british company, then you have what happened after the weekend especially they managed to completely blow up really the only strong fued they have. So if you want to look at bad booking go watch and see a UK company being completely run on New Japan talent now, that is the last thing I want to happen to ROH. Wether they are stars or not, i would rather ROH stayed strong to itself however they develops and not just be something New Japan uses to highlight itself. If you think New Japan won't drop Rev Pro like a bad penny if it stopped finding talent for them or stopped saying please let your talent be my draw your sadly mistaken.

So let me get this right, a dude called Jungleboy is more serious and better use of comedy than what Cheeseburger is? If Burger had a different name would you have a different feeling about him?

You do realise that their actually could be a real life Jungle Boy in this world, compared to a walking talking Cheeseburger, which makes no sense as a name it's just brutal as it's not even a monicare. Yes if he actually went by a far more normal name I could have got behind him because it humanise him even more so, he has a joke name and wrestles like it the two things make it for a horrible combination.

Nobody wants to see ROH die. Those 3 letters mean a hell of a lot to me personally and always will. The people in charge however could all never be heard from again and they wouldn't be missed. Everyone except Taven & PCO would likely land with AEW if ROH died. They still might. PCO is a one hit wonder and I grow so tired of the act the more I see it.

The way AEW is going it may not last long to do it, no matter the sell outs.

[alexsmellzzz]

Definitely not impossible but every day grows less likely. I know after what I saw in Chicago Saturday could never be met with the current storytelling in ROH.

From what I've heard it was an average show with two matches being great, while all the time NXT UK had the better show, so if that's the case wrestling as a whole in trouble. They have a 48 year old champion way past his prime, the guy that was voted the best wrestler in the world, having the most insane matches in the midcard. Women no selling each other during a match. Two wrestlers in a three way that should never actually be on a TV wrestling promotion. A VP that's putting himself over to the hilt, scaring the shit out dogs, a wrestler with the biggest smile each time she is out there having the time of her life, then somehow unhappy. If ROH did any of these they would be absolutely crucified, but with AEW it's just teething problems when they have more money than god and the time to do it properly.

Dude these are terrible opinions. Especially with how you defend ROH's insanely stupid ideas. That 3 way on the AEW show was a crazy spotfest, yeah, but it was more exciting than anything we've seen in ROH in a WHILE. Did you even watch the AEW show or are you just going by what you heard? AEW is on a roll right now. To criticize them and then turn around and say good things about ROH, it's just really silly. I could look up some of the actual things you've said about ROH, but there's so many, it'd be hard to pick out the worst ones.

One of these days, though, I should do that. Make a "Best of BurningHammer's idiotic posts" thread. Honestly, there'd be a lot to choose from.

[BurningHammer]

Definitely not impossible but every day grows less likely. I know after what I saw in Chicago Saturday could never be met with the current storytelling in ROH.

From what I've heard it was an average show with two matches being great, while all the time NXT UK had the better show, so if that's the case wrestling as a whole in trouble. They have a 48 year old champion way past his prime, the guy that was voted the best wrestler in the world, having the most insane matches in the midcard. Women no selling each other during a match. Two wrestlers in a three way that should never actually be on a TV wrestling promotion. A VP that's putting himself over to the hilt, scaring the shit out dogs, a wrestler with the biggest smile each time she is out there having the time of her life, then somehow unhappy. If ROH did any of these they would be absolutely crucified, but with AEW it's just teething problems when they have more money than god and the time to do it properly.

Dude these are terrible opinions. Especially with how you defend ROH's insanely stupid ideas. That 3 way on the AEW show was a crazy spotfest, yeah, but it was more exciting than anything we've seen in ROH in a WHILE. Did you even watch the AEW show or are you just going by what you heard? AEW is on a roll right now. To criticize them and then turn around and say good things about ROH, it's just really silly. I could look up some of the actual things you've said about ROH, but there's so many, it'd be hard to pick out the worst ones.

One of these days, though, I should do that. Make a "Best of BurningHammer's idiotic posts" thread. Honestly, there'd be a lot to choose from.

I didn’t watch the show, I said that, it’s not my opinion that either show was good or bad. All I’m saying is that there has been an opinion shared by quite a few people that the NXT UK show delivered more so than the AEW show. It’s important to find a balance and to show AEW has its issues and certainly isn’t this perfect entity. You say on a role, has there been a show without issues or people feeling like it could have been better, after the most recent show I saw people questioning wether to spend $50 on their PPV’s again. Right now that shouldn’t be happening.

My opinions of ROH are that they deliver a basic, good show right now and there is a product worth my time. I have never said it’s not bad, that talent doesn’t suck in some areas and booking needs to improve. Again I just try and balance the opinion good and bad, out.