Summer Supercard Thread

[BurningHammer]

It sounded like every match bar the women’s delivered in some aspect wether it furthered story’s, began some, ended others.

I haven’t watched but will do later, but it sounds like it was another Manhattan situation where ROH is starting to click (slowly) in all aspects.

I like that they had Flip attack Willian’s, it’s nice booking that adds depth to the matches up coming for LifeBlood and VE and created an extra babyface dimension for Williams and Taylor which is important.

We are now set with Taven and RUSH which has been the plan all a long so hopefully people finally see that and they will use there brains to realise why the title went to Taven. It’s a great story being told with Taven and title in terms of long term booking and it’s sad it’s being lost all this attendance stuff.

Unless the wrestlers get new music themselves I don’t think that’s going to happen,. ROH will use their own library and it’s brrn that since forever. Funny thing is a lot of the guys music has improved. Any show that can or doesn’t use music from the outside world unless your WWE say has issues. Jeez that Contra code music is possibly the worst thing in wrestling.

Also this this idea ROH has money, it really doesn’t most of it goes into contracts, they are run on a fine wire really and it takes a lot of work from a small amount of people to get it done.

Honestly if the title changing hands from Taven to someone results in fans coming back that really is a sad inditement of wrestling fans generally. I can understand if it’s the product in general, the Bully Ray stuff, the Allure, what happened at MSG, etc turning people away it nearly did for me. Taven though is actually giving his all and killing it generally in his matches and he gets this shit thrown at him constantly, wrestling is weird fucking world. Z

[Wavelet Transform]

Honestly if the title changing hands from Taven to someone results in fans coming back that really is a sad inditement of wrestling fans generally. I can understand if it’s the product in general, the Bully Ray stuff, the Allure, what happened at MSG, etc turning people away it nearly did for me. Taven though is actually giving his all and killing it generally in his matches and he gets this shit thrown at him constantly, wrestling is weird fucking world. Z

Taven is such an unremarkable, indy jobber-looking guy that it's genuinely disappointing and embarrassing to see him as the flag bearer for ROH. Someone recently compared him to Justin Credible as ECW champion and it's spot-on. I don't even think he's terrible, but it's actively off-putting to have someone at his level be the top dog in a company with so much history and great, great former champions. I've followed ROH for too long to ever truly give up on it, but my interest level in the product is the lowest it's ever been and Taven is the major reason for that.

[alexsmellzzz]

Honestly if the title changing hands from Taven to someone results in fans coming back that really is a sad inditement of wrestling fans generally. I can understand if it’s the product in general, the Bully Ray stuff, the Allure, what happened at MSG, etc turning people away it nearly did for me. Taven though is actually giving his all and killing it generally in his matches and he gets this shit thrown at him constantly, wrestling is weird fucking world. Z

Taven is such an unremarkable, indy jobber-looking guy that it's genuinely disappointing and embarrassing to see him as the flag bearer for ROH. Someone recently compared him to Justin Credible as ECW champion and it's spot-on. I don't even think he's terrible, but it's actively off-putting to have someone at his level be the top dog in a company with so much history and great, great former champions. I've followed ROH for too long to ever truly give up on it, but my interest level in the product is the lowest it's ever been and Taven is the major reason for that.

Yeah, he's just not on the level of all the other guys who have held the belt. And he never will be.

But trust me, you won't be able to reason with some of these people. They are ROH to the core, and they will defend every choice that ROH makes, including god-awful Taven being the world champ.

It just doesn't make sense.

Lethal/Castle/Cole/OReilly, even THAT class of people is so significantly better than Taven that it's not even funny. I'm not saying Taven has to be Samoa Joe, Austin Aries, etc. OBVIOUSLY he'll never be that. But he's also not even scratching the surface of the guys that one would consider to be his peers. It's seriously sad that he's the champ. And now I'm sure they'll do a Taven/Rush SERIES. So we're stuck with several more Taven world title defenses. Good grief.

[BurningHammer]

Honestly if the title changing hands from Taven to someone results in fans coming back that really is a sad inditement of wrestling fans generally. I can understand if it’s the product in general, the Bully Ray stuff, the Allure, what happened at MSG, etc turning people away it nearly did for me. Taven though is actually giving his all and killing it generally in his matches and he gets this shit thrown at him constantly, wrestling is weird fucking world. Z

Taven is such an unremarkable, indy jobber-looking guy that it's genuinely disappointing and embarrassing to see him as the flag bearer for ROH. Someone recently compared him to Justin Credible as ECW champion and it's spot-on. I don't even think he's terrible, but it's actively off-putting to have someone at his level be the top dog in a company with so much history and great, great former champions. I've followed ROH for too long to ever truly give up on it, but my interest level in the product is the lowest it's ever been and Taven is the major reason for that.

Personally it sounds like your talking more about Joey Janella, The Bouncers, Cheeseburger etc and I can see what you mean to a degree. Personally though I never had a problem with Credible he was a lot better than most of the world champs that ECW had, especially in ring. I do wonder how someone like Sandman would fair today in this era and how people would see his matches from 1994/5 when he was champ? I will say if it’s directed at me I’ve been more than critical of ROH and it’s decisions, I just may see a different positive or certainly a different position regarding Taven. yeah there are sides to him I do like sides to him I don’t, Regardless I would never say he’s a fantastic wrestler but what I will say is he’s giving everything he can and for me he is delivering in the ring, but overall there are plenty out there that could be champ that would be a whole lot worse.

I just think there a lot of other things that should turn you off from the product more than Taven and putting up with those things has been way harder to stomach. I do feel though that maybe what we are seeing is the ROH that has been running for the last couple of years is culminating at the end of this year. There are a lot guys ready now for the next step that could really take ROH forward after putting in alot of time both good and very bad into Taylor, Taven/The kingdom, Castle which I get, who wouldn't to be able to build its own stars to save themselves from the natural struggle of keeping top talent but they have really struggled in finding ways to do it and the choices have turned people away rather than getting more in which has made it sure that it hasn’t paid off. With all that said I do think after a long struggle and many errors ROH had found a little bit of that formula it just now has to be the right guy that fans can get behind, and if ROH can add a couple of notches to it's depth of booking then maybe things are going to different next year. I will certainly say we are going to see far less Bully Ray and more Haskins, Bandido vs Lethal and Gresham, (hopefully with stronger story lines which ROH has shown it’s capable of doing this year and previously).

So by the end of the year, it could be RUSH vs Taven after a great series that builds to Final Battle, RUSH wins the title, We have LifeBlood holders of the three man belts and maybe the TV title too or at least say Hendry for that and the tag titles I’m unsure of maybe C2C wining would be a great change or possibly a team from CMLL, I did some how forget about PCO and King, How would everyone feel going into the next year?

[AlexROH]

I thought the show ended with a GREAT call by Ian Riccaboni - pointing out how much it is taking out of the Briscoes to KEEP having to go through these crazy violent matches.

Respect to all four of those guys. I don’t know where it will stand up in the history of ‘Ladder War’ as time passes, but they beat the absolute sh*t out of each other to the point that it was hard to watch at times.

As a big Ladder War fan, who watches every one before a new one takes place, I find it pretty difficult to rank them since, for me, they were all pretty great if you ask me. This one I really loved because it was just pure violence from the very first minute. I also loved the final moments. No super big spots before grabbing the titles, just two men hitting each other until one of the falls.

My ranking, btw, would be someting like this:

1. Briscoes vs. Steen/Generico ****3/4
2. Bucks vs. MCMG vs. Addiction ****3/4
3. Briscoes vs. Bucks vs. SCU ****1/2+
4. Briscoes vs. GOD ****1/2
5. ANX vs. Briscoes ****1/2
6. Briscoe vs. Cole ****1/2
7. Wolves vs. Generico/Steen ****1/2
8. Steen vs. Generico ****

Who would you rank them?

[McXal]

I thought the show ended with a GREAT call by Ian Riccaboni - pointing out how much it is taking out of the Briscoes to KEEP having to go through these crazy violent matches.

Respect to all four of those guys. I don’t know where it will stand up in the history of ‘Ladder War’ as time passes, but they beat the absolute sh*t out of each other to the point that it was hard to watch at times.

As a big Ladder War fan, who watches every one before a new one takes place, I find it pretty difficult to rank them since, for me, they were all pretty great if you ask me. This one I really loved because it was just pure violence from the very first minute. I also loved the final moments. No super big spots before grabbing the titles, just two men hitting each other until one of the falls.

My ranking, btw, would be someting like this:

1. Briscoes vs. Steen/Generico ****3/4
2. Bucks vs. MCMG vs. Addiction ****3/4
3. Briscoes vs. Bucks vs. SCU ****1/2+
4. Briscoes vs. GOD ****1/2
5. ANX vs. Briscoes ****1/2
6. Briscoe vs. Cole ****1/2
7. Wolves vs. Generico/Steen ****1/2
8. Steen vs. Generico ****

Who would you rank them?

That’s a tough question - and I need to preface my answer by saying I’ve not seen the Briscoes/Bucks/SCU Ladder War yet, and i would need to rewatch Briscoes/GOD when it’s not 4am and I’m fully awake...

1) Addiction/Bucks/MCMG
2) Briscoes/Steen-erico
3) Wolves/Steen-erico
4) Briscoes/ANX
5) Steen/Generico
6) Briscoes/GOD
7) Cole/Briscoe

I could flip 1 & 2 around quite easily. The first Ladder War is iconic and more than a decade later is still an astonishing spectacle, but I absolutely loved Ladder War 6 (Bucks/Addiction/MCMG) and personally have it as the pinnacle and absolute best thing ROH has done under Sinclair rule.

To this day I remain a sucker for the absolute drama of Eddie Edwards working a Ladder War with a broken arm, and it still remains one of my favourites so that one is still high on my list.

I liked Steen & Generico more than you I think. It had ludicrously high expectations and was never going to touch Final Battle 2010 Mask vs Career (which is an utter masterpiece) - but I thought they really delivered, and the singles vibe meant it felt very fresh.

(As an aside - do ROH differentiate on camera when something IS a Ladder War and when it’s just a Ladder Match? I’m thinking Bucks/Hardyz, the Bucks & Flip vs SCU for the 6-Man belts etc. I’ve just started watching 2017 ROH for my reviews archive and I’m curious to see if they acknowledge or explain the ‘difference’ on screen

[AlexROH]

I thought the show ended with a GREAT call by Ian Riccaboni - pointing out how much it is taking out of the Briscoes to KEEP having to go through these crazy violent matches.

Respect to all four of those guys. I don’t know where it will stand up in the history of ‘Ladder War’ as time passes, but they beat the absolute sh*t out of each other to the point that it was hard to watch at times.

As a big Ladder War fan, who watches every one before a new one takes place, I find it pretty difficult to rank them since, for me, they were all pretty great if you ask me. This one I really loved because it was just pure violence from the very first minute. I also loved the final moments. No super big spots before grabbing the titles, just two men hitting each other until one of the falls.

My ranking, btw, would be someting like this:

1. Briscoes vs. Steen/Generico ****3/4
2. Bucks vs. MCMG vs. Addiction ****3/4
3. Briscoes vs. Bucks vs. SCU ****1/2+
4. Briscoes vs. GOD ****1/2
5. ANX vs. Briscoes ****1/2
6. Briscoe vs. Cole ****1/2
7. Wolves vs. Generico/Steen ****1/2
8. Steen vs. Generico ****

Who would you rank them?

That’s a tough question - and I need to preface my answer by saying I’ve not seen the Briscoes/Bucks/SCU Ladder War yet, and i would need to rewatch Briscoes/GOD when it’s not 4am and I’m fully awake...

1) Addiction/Bucks/MCMG
2) Briscoes/Steen-erico
3) Wolves/Steen-erico
4) Briscoes/ANX
5) Steen/Generico
6) Briscoes/GOD
7) Cole/Briscoe

I could flip 1 & 2 around quite easily. The first Ladder War is iconic and more than a decade later is still an astonishing spectacle, but I absolutely loved Ladder War 6 (Bucks/Addiction/MCMG) and personally have it as the pinnacle and absolute best thing ROH has done under Sinclair rule.

To this day I remain a sucker for the absolute drama of Eddie Edwards working a Ladder War with a broken arm, and it still remains one of my favourites so that one is still high on my list.

I liked Steen & Generico more than you I think. It had ludicrously high expectations and was never going to touch Final Battle 2010 Mask vs Career (which is an utter masterpiece) - but I thought they really delivered, and the singles vibe meant it felt very fresh.

(As an aside - do ROH differentiate on camera when something IS a Ladder War and when it’s just a Ladder Match? I’m thinking Bucks/Hardyz, the Bucks & Flip vs SCU for the 6-Man belts etc. I’ve just started watching 2017 ROH for my reviews archive and I’m curious to see if they acknowledge or explain the ‘difference’ on screen

I was never a big fan of the Wolves match, but after re-watching it a couple of times I liked more and more. Regarding Steen vs Generico, I liked it but for me will always be the "weakest" since I think they have had better matches and I liked more their PWG Ladder or their FWH back in FB 2010.

On the other hand, I think Cole vs. Briscoe was pretty great. Besides the botched finish spot because of Matt Hardy, I found it a crazy violent match, with Jay having a fantastic performance and both men trying to kill each other, which I think is the main goal of Ladder War.

I think you'll like Ladder War VII. It a "short" one, but had a pretty great storty combining the athletics from SCU and Bucks, representing modern Ladder matches in ROH, and the violence of the Briscoes, bringing the original idea back.

Yeah ROH differentiate Ladder War from Ladder Match on camara. It's like when it's a big feud behind they always refer it as Ladder War, putting emphasis on the violence and brutality of the match, while Ladder matches are just your usual match where you add the stipulation because if cool, but without a blood feud behind, like Bucks vs. Hardys, the 3 Way at MSG and the SCU trios match at SCOH. It's a little detail, but I really like it,

[Montana]

Villain Enterprises vs. The Kingdom 3.0

PJ Black vs. Marty Scurll 3.25-3.5

Bandido/Haskins vs. Gresham/Lethal 4.25

[No DQ] Rush vs. Dalton Castle 3.5 - 3.75

Shane Taylor (c) vs. Tracy Williams 3.25

CMLL Trios 3.75

Taven (c) vs. Shelley 4.0

[Ladder War VIII] The Briscoes vs. GOD 4.75

Overall 9/10

Really liked this show top to bottom. Probably one of my favorite shows, since i can recall. Good balance, good variety of matches. That was a brutal, insane Ladder War, and certianly near of the of Ladder wars/matches in my book. The Tag match was something special. The CMLL guys showed off. Taven and Shelley exceeded my expectations, and i actually thought that match may be a dud. Was pulling for Hot Sauce, but Shane Taylor has been pretty good lately. Would like to see a rematch between them two.


In terms of greatest Ladder Wars... i'll go with my top 3

1) Briscoes vs. Steenerico
2) Briscoes vs. GOD
3) Steen vs. Generico (The build up alone to this was insane)

I didn't love last years Final Battle 3 way ladder war as much as others. It great, but not in my top ladder wars.

[Lynx]

I thought that the show started really badly, but got better as it went along. Lucha showcase match was a breaking point for me and then it really started to look like a solid show.

Since people who don't hate Taven are so positive about everything and I'm one of them, I guess I'll just mention things that I really didn't like about this show.

This whole Kingdom/Bouncers feud is house show material. All 4 of them are, at best, mediocre and I'd prefer if they had less screen time.

I don't get the logic of booking Young/PJ Black match then Young refusing to wrestle, then them doing open challenge that is answered by Scurll. What? What was the point of all that? Just run PJ Black/Scurll match without all this nonsense and maybe you'd sell few extra tickets. I hope there was some backstage issues that lead to this and this actually wasn't planned in advance.

On paper I understand the logic behind Flip attacking Williams. And it helps to build towards future Lifeblood/VE matches, but you have Shane Taylor there as well who basically had a competitive match against much smaller opponent that had injured arm. I think that Taylor has potential and thats why I really don't like how this title reign is being booked. He stole the title from Cobb in 4-way match. He had decent match against Bandido, then a filler match against Isom that was basically about Isom getting this big opportunity and really bringing it and now he defeated injured Williams. If you look at how Taylor looks, wrestlers and his promos you'd think that he'd be booked as a monster heel that some babyface will beat at later day. But no, his booking is more suitable for someone like Young or some cowardly heel. I don't get it.

[BurningHammer]

I thought that the show started really badly, but got better as it went along. Lucha showcase match was a breaking point for me and then it really started to look like a solid show.

Since people who don't hate Taven are so positive about everything and I'm one of them, I guess I'll just mention things that I really didn't like about this show.

This whole Kingdom/Bouncers feud is house show material. All 4 of them are, at best, mediocre and I'd prefer if they had less screen time.

I don't get the logic of booking Young/PJ Black match then Young refusing to wrestle, then them doing open challenge that is answered by Scurll. What? What was the point of all that? Just run PJ Black/Scurll match without all this nonsense and maybe you'd sell few extra tickets. I hope there was some backstage issues that lead to this and this actually wasn't planned in advance.

On paper I understand the logic behind Flip attacking Williams. And it helps to build towards future Lifeblood/VE matches, but you have Shane Taylor there as well who basically had a competitive match against much smaller opponent that had injured arm. I think that Taylor has potential and thats why I really don't like how this title reign is being booked. He stole the title from Cobb in 4-way match. He had decent match against Bandido, then a filler match against Isom that was basically about Isom getting this big opportunity and really bringing it and now he defeated injured Williams. If you look at how Taylor looks, wrestlers and his promos you'd think that he'd be booked as a monster heel that some babyface will beat at later day. But no, his booking is more suitable for someone like Young or some cowardly heel. I don't get it.

I'm with you on the rest but the best thing they've done with the tag team of TK and Vinny and the Bouncers has been this thing, i'd rather they were nowhere near it but the booking is at least sensible and right.

I thought the attack and match really was more for Williams, it was to show how much fight, determination, will etc he has, It also goes onto fuel the fued with LifeBlood and Taylor's umbridge with what they stand as no matter what they throw at him he has his hand raised and he is now 2-0 in championship matches against LifeBlood (even if they are lucky wins which is fine for a heel) I think it may lead to Haskins taking the title but my preference if he is still open to it would be Juice coming back and winning. Thinking about it more Taylors whole reign could be more about getting the people he faces more over and as someone who should be champ rather than it being about him. It also might be ROH feeling out who can carry the company's titles, I think Taylor should get a lot of credit as a professional to want to do it considering he knows fan general reaction. I do think in the end that ROH hopes all his good matches get him over with the crowd.

On Ladder Wars I'll go with

1)Steen'erico vs The Briscoe's (Just so special in so many ways)
2)Steen vs Generico (I have never been more nervous and amped for a match really)
3)Wolves vs Steen'erico (Eddie is a cast from what happened the night before was something)
4)Addiction vs Bucks vs MCMG (A morden day spectacle that delivered on levels and with the addition of Daniels being a mental old man, it just a little predictable in it's set ups.

I haven't seen last night but the rest have neve really been my bag but the build to this one I imagine will have it as number five, last years at Final Battle was probably the worst I can remember.

[Wavelet Transform]

Honestly if the title changing hands from Taven to someone results in fans coming back that really is a sad inditement of wrestling fans generally. I can understand if it’s the product in general, the Bully Ray stuff, the Allure, what happened at MSG, etc turning people away it nearly did for me. Taven though is actually giving his all and killing it generally in his matches and he gets this shit thrown at him constantly, wrestling is weird fucking world. Z

Taven is such an unremarkable, indy jobber-looking guy that it's genuinely disappointing and embarrassing to see him as the flag bearer for ROH. Someone recently compared him to Justin Credible as ECW champion and it's spot-on. I don't even think he's terrible, but it's actively off-putting to have someone at his level be the top dog in a company with so much history and great, great former champions. I've followed ROH for too long to ever truly give up on it, but my interest level in the product is the lowest it's ever been and Taven is the major reason for that.

Personally it sounds like your talking more about Joey Janella, The Bouncers, Cheeseburger etc and I can see what you mean to a degree. Personally though I never had a problem with Credible he was a lot better than most of the world champs that ECW had, especially in ring. I do wonder how someone like Sandman would fair today in this era and how people would see his matches from 1994/5 when he was champ? I will say if it’s directed at me I’ve been more than critical of ROH and it’s decisions, I just may see a different positive or certainly a different position regarding Taven. yeah there are sides to him I do like sides to him I don’t, Regardless I would never say he’s a fantastic wrestler but what I will say is he’s giving everything he can and for me he is delivering in the ring, but overall there are plenty out there that could be champ that would be a whole lot worse.

I just think there a lot of other things that should turn you off from the product more than Taven and putting up with those things has been way harder to stomach. I do feel though that maybe what we are seeing is the ROH that has been running for the last couple of years is culminating at the end of this year. There are a lot guys ready now for the next step that could really take ROH forward after putting in alot of time both good and very bad into Taylor, Taven/The kingdom, Castle which I get, who wouldn't to be able to build its own stars to save themselves from the natural struggle of keeping top talent but they have really struggled in finding ways to do it and the choices have turned people away rather than getting more in which has made it sure that it hasn’t paid off. With all that said I do think after a long struggle and many errors ROH had found a little bit of that formula it just now has to be the right guy that fans can get behind, and if ROH can add a couple of notches to it's depth of booking then maybe things are going to different next year. I will certainly say we are going to see far less Bully Ray and more Haskins, Bandido vs Lethal and Gresham, (hopefully with stronger story lines which ROH has shown it’s capable of doing this year and previously).

So by the end of the year, it could be RUSH vs Taven after a great series that builds to Final Battle, RUSH wins the title, We have LifeBlood holders of the three man belts and maybe the TV title too or at least say Hendry for that and the tag titles I’m unsure of maybe C2C wining would be a great change or possibly a team from CMLL, I did some how forget about PCO and King, How would everyone feel going into the next year?

I get what you're saying re: other things that should turn you off. I think I see it the opposite way though. ROH has always had a fair amount of crap on their cards from the Christopher Street Connection, Carnage Crew, QT Marshall, Cheeseburger, etc....., but it was also true that on those same cards, the guy holding the belt could plausibly be considered one of the best wrestlers in the world. I don't think that's the case w/ Taven as "the guy". That's really not Taven or ROH's fault either. There is so much talent in other promotions (especially WWE) and it's harder than it's been in a long time to attract and retain talent.

[supersonic]

maybe not the final attendance but wow....

Totally fucking unacceptable for an event not only booked as a big deal in canon, not only in one of the company’s greatest historical markets, but piggybacking off one of the industry’s most important annual events.

[Chrisvegas27]

The fans showing up now are the real roh fans the ones that left were only elite fans so it's up to roh to attract a larger fanbase even a bigger one than they had with the elite

[supersonic]

The fans showing up now are the real roh fans the ones that left were only elite fans so it's up to roh to attract a larger fanbase even a bigger one than they had with the elite

Your narrative is off. This goes back to the late 2000s. The real fans stuck around through Sapolsky's burnout, Pearce's mediocrity, a horrendous 2009, and so-so run on HDNet. Then those fans were pissed away when SBG bought the company and gave Cornette the book. This caused the company to lose its depth and have to eventually over-invest in NJPW/BC/Elite in order to get buzz and draw some real money, since doing so outside of that element was a rare occurrence.

Now what we're seeing is the NJPW/BC/Elite crutch is dwindling away, and thus those fans who were drawn based on those acts have no reason to stick around. The one guy who WOULD keep them, ROH is too pussy to crown him and make the most out of his remaining time in the company. Gone are the days when a guy leaving was actually the driving force for a world title reign that's still the stuff of legend more than a decade later.

In addition, ROH failed to make enough ready-made main-events outside of the mentioned NJPW/BC/Elite crew, so the ones who are left (sans Scurll) either aren't good enough to keep the fans around, or haven't been groomed appropriately enough.

But please, stick to your pathetic loyalist narratives like the late '80s AWA, WCW 2000, and TNA 2015 fanboys.

[Chrisvegas27]

I'm not a loyalist and I think the most of hdnet days were better than what we have now from a storyline and in away the talent

[Montana]

Last nights attendance was said to be over a 1,000... i'm sure they were hoping for more, but is what it is when the ROH show tickets were 60-100$ and NXT takeover tickets are 7$?!?

Call me a loyalist if you want, but in my opinion ROH has had the best product the last 17 years in North America. They've had the best matches , created the biggest moments, best championship reigns, best feuds, created the biggest stars in wrestling today, etc. I don't love everything they do, but i also don't nit pick every aspect of the show. I also don't complain if my favorite wrestler doesn't win. I support ROH more so now, than i have in the past, because they need fans to come back and support....or else there ROH may struggle to stay in business.

[Wilson]

I don't know what the (reliable) reported attendance last night was, but the early photos of the event seemed discouraging. Obviously ticket sales have been hurting since AEW has started putting on shows, though it's worth considering that "Summer Supercard" is a new brand and that a lot of these Summerslam satellite shows have been weaker than you might have guessed. ROH's attendance labored attendance figures are a lot more complicated than LOLTaven--I'm sure they wish it was that simple.

The narrative scapegoating of Taven as the chief reason for ROH's nosedive in attendance and as an all-time worst decision continues to seem very unfair to me. I won't argue that he should of won at MSG or that his stock as a wrestler has taken endless hits from a booking perspective, but he is good, one of the best in the company, in the best year of his career, in the middle of maybe one of the better ROH title reigns in recent years while being one of their few top true heels in a very long time. ROH took a gutsy chance on him, and it seems they know that risk didn't pay off and now it's time to take the title off him. Maybe Taven's reign helps set up Rush and that his credibility can be used to make other guys in the future. In my opinion, the big character decision they made this year that I think they'll regret is turning Dalton heel, especially if Marty and Cobb are leaving soon.

[AlexROH]

maybe not the final attendance but wow....

Totally fucking unacceptable for an event not only booked as a big deal in canon, not only in one of the company’s greatest historical markets, but piggybacking off one of the industry’s most important annual events.

Attendance was low, but that's not a real photo of the show, that's a photo before the show even started (you can see that The Bouncers, who were attacked right after the opener, are taking photos with some fans).

Here's the real one:

[AlexROH]

I don't know what the (reliable) reported attendance last night was, but the early photos of the event seemed discouraging. Obviously ticket sales have been hurting since AEW has started putting on shows, though it's worth considering that "Summer Supercard" is a new brand and that a lot of these Summerslam satellite shows have been weaker than you might have guessed. ROH's attendance labored attendance figures are a lot more complicated than LOLTaven--I'm sure they wish it was that simple.

The narrative scapegoating of Taven as the chief reason for ROH's nosedive in attendance and as an all-time worst decision continues to seem very unfair to me. I won't argue that he should of won at MSG or that his stock as a wrestler has taken endless hits from a booking perspective, but he is good, one of the best in the company, in the best year of his career, in the middle of maybe one of the better ROH title reigns in recent years while being one of their few top true heels in a very long time. ROH took a gutsy chance on him, and it seems they know that risk didn't pay off and now it's time to take the title off him. Maybe Taven's reign helps set up Rush and that his credibility can be used to make other guys in the future. In my opinion, the big character decision they made this year that I think they'll regret is turning Dalton heel, especially if Marty and Cobb are leaving soon.

ROH has made tons of bad decisions but I read every day that Taven's reign is what made people stop watching the product. Man, yesterday were a lot of people on Twitter, an even reviewers, saying that Taven is so bad that one fan sitting front row was sleeping during his match lol, it was a drunk man that passed out and need some medical attention.

ROH has done a lot of bad moves and they deserve to be where they are now, but attendance yesterday wasnt worst from other shows we've seen this year or even the last time the were at the very same building (Global Wars 2018 Toronto with King vs Lethal as main event); the company should go back to smaller buildings so they dont show every month empty bleachers and then move back to bigger things if there is a demand.

[BurningHammer]

I don't know what the (reliable) reported attendance last night was, but the early photos of the event seemed discouraging. Obviously ticket sales have been hurting since AEW has started putting on shows, though it's worth considering that "Summer Supercard" is a new brand and that a lot of these Summerslam satellite shows have been weaker than you might have guessed. ROH's attendance labored attendance figures are a lot more complicated than LOLTaven--I'm sure they wish it was that simple.

The narrative scapegoating of Taven as the chief reason for ROH's nosedive in attendance and as an all-time worst decision continues to seem very unfair to me. I won't argue that he should of won at MSG or that his stock as a wrestler has taken endless hits from a booking perspective, but he is good, one of the best in the company, in the best year of his career, in the middle of maybe one of the better ROH title reigns in recent years while being one of their few top true heels in a very long time. ROH took a gutsy chance on him, and it seems they know that risk didn't pay off and now it's time to take the title off him. Maybe Taven's reign helps set up Rush and that his credibility can be used to make other guys in the future. In my opinion, the big character decision they made this year that I think they'll regret is turning Dalton heel, especially if Marty and Cobb are leaving soon.

Taven in no way should be used as the man at the centre of the problem, it takes away any blame from the men that have made a huge amount of mistakes for a long time and now only seem to give a shit realising things needed doing else it could get so much worse, thankfully they are changes that can work. ROH going to Taven no matter the success should actually be seen as a major plus for the company, they are willing to take those risks, they are a company that wants to build someone from the ground up and make them champions. Whoever has their heart set of being part of a company you grow and develop with, this is the way it's done, it just needs to be with a man/woman that fans connect too.

On Dalton I think he needed something, I will there are far too many heels in ROH and that needs balancing out in some way, if there is a great babyface out there or someone that fans really connect too and they have a chance to sign him they should do it.