Best In The World 2019 OFFICIAL THREAD

[famicommander]

Taven had good matches on his way up. Especially post-injury, his matches with the likes of Will Ospreay, Jushin Thunder Liger, and Ultimo Guerrero should have been clear signals of what was to come.

[AnHonorableMention]

Nobody is bitching about who the talent is, it's how they are used. For the millionth time the roster is great, and not the problem. The problem is bubba ray, delirious and joey don't know how to use them to maximize reaction and joy/agony from the crowd.

[Lynx]

I think that there is no argument for why Cobb should have won. If I'm not mistaken his contract expires in September and since now till mid august he is going to be in G1. If he has not signed another deal then you get 1 or 2 title matches out of him before he drops it. Such short reigns do not help anyone. And whoever he'd drop the title to would get "he won because Cobb is leaving" label attached. Thats not even getting into G1 situation where he is likely to get beaten 4 or 5, if not 6, times.

As for Shane Taylor, he has improved a lot, but I don't think that he is yet on the level to be one of the headliners. At the same time Bandido winning here would have really hurt him so I think that correct decision was made. Mistake, in my opinion, was having him win TV title in that 4-way match where he basically stole it and didn't get much momentum out of it.

I'd say that Cobb probably should have retained TV title and this should have been champion vs champion match. It would have also saved some time for PPV with one less match being there. Bandido could have easily taken PJ Black's spot and Taylor could have done a run in with Bully/SoS, while PJ Black would have ran in to help Lifeblood. Then Flip runs in and betrays them eventually. Basically same as what happened just Bandido's and PJ Black's roles swapped.

After that, in August or September I would have done Cobb/Taylor for TV title where Taylor would have actually beaten Cobb.

[Thelone]

Taven really might be the most underappreciated talent in the business right now. Most people critical of him haven't been watching recently. The love that MJF is getting is largely built on an act that Taven has mastered over the last few years. Taven's issue was that he wasn't very good a few years ago...and people still have that impression of him today.

And yet "somehow", MJF is higher in the wrestling business than Taven despite being much younger and less experienced. Clearly, it's that conspiracy he's been bitching about since forever.

I'd say he's very much rightly "appreciated" by outsiders as an okay guy who is on top by default, and overrated by the ROH fans as this all-time great, very much like Lethal and Castle to a lesser degree.

[famicommander]

Nobody has claimed Taven to be an all time great but I don't think MJF is "higher up" in the business than Taven.

[BurningHammer]

On the MJF/Taven discussion the fact is he one if those generational talents, he is way beyond he years and is calm it’s ridiculous and really he puts most to shame apart from maybe David Starr. MJF hasn’t had to start from basic like Taven, he was along way before many are thinking about how to do an arm lock.

Taven has developed very slowly from poor booking and never really could be trusted to deliver great matches, he’s someone that had until now low key connected to crowds, more at live events that really outside those bubbles. At this time he is connecting and connected with fans and it’s about staying the course to find what I think will be or could he is the a defining feud with RUSH, I’m taking a possible CM Punk and Daniel Bryan level. It’s a huge ask and task I know but if ROH could just move away from the conservative approach to being a heel, or just tugging at line, just go over the line a few times.

I think it will end up that Taven will be seen as the best transitional champ there was, and RUSH could be special present from the journey with Taven.

I think we could be heading from something great with ROH, it’s going to take what they’ve learnt and shown in the last few months to be shown in talent that hasn’t been scorched from previous attempts, so it’s going to a long road with Talent really committing despite interest from other companies but it could be by next year ROH is drawing a few thousand more regurely

[Wilson]

OK, I'm about to shift into Taven Defense mode, but before that let me paradoxically shoot down MJF being some prodigal talent. He'll probably be used to great effect in AEW (because it looks like Cody loves him because they're the same), but seeing promos cut for the sake of heat alone in the vein of the 80s does little for me in the long run. EC3/Bateman does his thing much more interestingly, and I already have never been too invested in him.

Look. Taven is good! He got as many cheers as Cobb did at the PPV. He's one of the better in-ring wrestlers on the roster. To me, he's right around the level of champions like Kofi, Jericho/Page, Brian Cage, Austin Theory, Jeff Cobb, and Sami Callihan. People who watch ROH with relative consistency like him because it's evident he's pretty good and has been performing as required in his role as a main eventer. Besides Rush or Marty, he's the best person they have to put the title on. The problem isn't him, it's how ROH makes stars (or doesn't) and how they silo them off from independent wrestling events that generate fan attention.

I think it will end up that Taven will be seen as the best transitional champ there was, and RUSH could be special present from the journey with Taven.

Eddie Edwards will be the best transitional champ always, how dare you.

[BurningHammer]

I think it will end up that Taven will be seen as the best transitional champ there was, and RUSH could be special present from the journey with Taven.

Eddie Edwards will be the best transitional champ always, how dare you.

Man I messed up there, you are right from a match quality perspective, what a work horse he was.

[Wilson]

To be honest, I think Taven is now bound to cross whatever threshold a transitional champion is.

Also now that we're years separated from it, what kind of reign do we call O'Reilly's? I think winning the title and dropping it to the same dude precludes it from being a transitional run. Was it just A Thing That Happened?

[BurningHammer]

To be honest, I think Taven is now bound to cross whatever threshold a transitional champion is.

Also now that we're years separated from it, what kind of reign do we call O'Reilly's? I think winning the title and dropping it to the same dude precludes it from being a transitional run. Was it just A Thing That Happened?

Unfortunately it’s going to be a thing that happened, much like Cole’s third run in someways. That whole situation was the some of the worst booking I have from how long, especially how promising his build towards the title was to begin with. From how it took O’Reilly to win to when he lost and it’s been difficult for ROH to make new stars ever since.

[AlexROH]

Via WON:

The show drew 1,200 fans, which is better than ROH has been doing and a lot stronger than the advances going forward are. But in a 5,000 seat arena, there were visible empty seats everywhere.

The early PPV numbers don’t look strong, as the previous show, the 17th anniversary show in March, did an estimated 2,800 television buys. The recent NWA/ROH Crockett Cup show did 2,600. This show was down to an estimated 1,200 based on early reports. Now, most ROH viewership will be on Honor Club and not traditional PPV, but it’s still a gigantic drop.

The Madison Square Garden show, obviously a tons bigger show, did an estimated 5,300 and that was available also on both Honor Club and New Japan World. Of those roughly 1,200, roughly 57 purchased PPV of Stomping Grounds and 265 purchased the Double or Nothing show. That’s not saying the crossover was greater with AEW, because you have to factor in WWE Network, but if you’re a WWE Network subscriber, you’re probably savvy enough to also purchase Honor Club and not rely on television PPV for anyone at this point except AEW, which doesn’t have a better bargain price streaming. Really the key to this is that there are still (with duplicates figured in) 74 percent of the people who bought this show who are still television PPV buyers that didn’t buy the most recent WWE or AEW show, so it’s still its own very much dwindling audience.

None of the angles are hitting. ROH’s problem is that it was built as a high level match quality promotion as its calling card, and now, with the top workers that didn’t fit the WWE mold now having options like NXT and AEW and Sinclair going with the idea they weren’t going to try to be big, even after the growth of last year, they simply don’t have the talent to be what they were. And from production and storyline they’ll never be able to compete, so their calling card has to be great shows. The attempt to expand reach, whether using the former Beautiful People is what the base audience wouldn’t want, and thus far, this has not expanded the audience with the idea hot girls will bring in more guys or whatever the rationale is. Really, the entire women’s division in ROH is problematic. It feels like they have it because they would get criticized for not having it. But they don’t have the talent for the most part in it to compete with those divisions in other companies or be able to wrestle at the level of the other matches on the show. So it’s a negative on the shows. Whatever the WWE or AEW audience is, ROH shows are all about having top quality matches. And when, like with this show, you lack in the match quality and fan response, you can’t make up with it in entertainment value or heat or whatever.

[BurningHammer]

I wouldn’t say that there wasn’t heat etc for matches I think that’s a bit off. Story lines aren’t picking up to a major fan base for sure but I do think a few are picking up within the ROH fan base and that’s what ROH is trying to do, it’s not about pleasing fans of the past or fans of any other company. It’s about trying to cultivate their own a fan base, not one due to the young bucks or New Japan and you know what that takes time especially when you have prepared for it poorly. They have a roster or close to, still need a few additions and story arch’s that can develop forward to a much stronger position on the future

Coming out of the Philly tapings I felt much happier about things than I was before, and the promo with Taven, Lethal and Shelley showed me why I should.

Despite the attendance of Manhattan Mayhem I think there will be a run of very good shows and I hope the TV episodes will back that up.

[kovs27]

The crowd was into the show. The only matches that the crowd may have hurt was the last two. The Briscoes are very over in Baltimore and it seemed like some people left after their match.

[Big Red Machine]

Taven had good matches on his way up. Especially post-injury, his matches with the likes of Will Ospreay, Jushin Thunder Liger, and Ultimo Guerrero should have been clear signals of what was to come.

Good, but not ROH World Title quality. And I think there are plenty of guys who can have matches that are good and show that they have potential to have ROH World Title-level matches but never wind up having those great matches.

[Big Red Machine]

Taven really might be the most underappreciated talent in the business right now. Most people critical of him haven't been watching recently. The love that MJF is getting is largely built on an act that Taven has mastered over the last few years. Taven's issue was that he wasn't very good a few years ago...and people still have that impression of him today.

The difference between their acts is that MJF comes off like an arrogant douchebag who you want to punch in the face, while Taven comes off like cartoon character who dresses like a goof and calls people "Melvins."

[Big Red Machine]

To be honest, I think Taven is now bound to cross whatever threshold a transitional champion is.

Also now that we're years separated from it, what kind of reign do we call O'Reilly's? I think winning the title and dropping it to the same dude precludes it from being a transitional run. Was it just A Thing That Happened?

Unfortunately it’s going to be a thing that happened, much like Cole’s third run in someways. That whole situation was the some of the worst booking I have from how long, especially how promising his build towards the title was to begin with. From how it took O’Reilly to win to when he lost and it’s been difficult for ROH to make new stars ever since.

I think it will end up that Taven will be seen as the best transitional champ there was, and RUSH could be special present from the journey with Taven.

Eddie Edwards will be the best transitional champ always, how dare you.

Man I messed up there, you are right from a match quality perspective, what a work horse he was.

OOO! I LOVE discussions like this. here's my take:
Kyle is not a transitional champion because he dropped the belt to the same person he won it from. That situation was either just a stupid booking move for the purposes of changing the title at the Dome (if you believe the "it was always the plan to do this" theory) or Delirious booking the story he wanted and hoping Kyle would re-sign and go with it, and then Delirious had to change everything around when Kyle made it clear he wasn't staying around (which it is completely fair to criticize as a poor decision that hurt the title as well).
I also don't think Eddie Edwards should count as a transitional champion because while his title reign was a short reign between two longer ones, there was a story to it. With a transitional champion the point is to get the bet from one wrestler to another without having those two face off for whatever reason. The point of Eddie's title reign was not to get the belt from Roddy to Davey without doing a Roddy vs. Davey match (they did one while Eddie was champion). The point of Eddie's title reign was to tell a story with him and Davey, which extended for the rest of the year.

The only ROH World Champions whose reigns I was would call transitional are Gibson, Homicide, and, Daniels, of which I think Daniels was the best. I'm also not certain that Gibson's was intended to be transitional, but rather became such because he signed with WWE soon after winning it (Gabe was clearly trying to tell stories with him like with Spanky, but he had to rush them, as opposed to Homicide who had one big match with Joe that was set up during his title chase and random matches with Hero and Rave before dropping the title).

[Lynx]

I think that every bigger promotion has high quality matches now. You can argue that X promotion overall has better matches than Y, but for the most part every promotion tries to secure guys that can deliver great and exciting matches. So to me statements like "ROH shows are all about having top quality matches" make no sense.

And I question if it was the case for a while now. Cody never delivered a "top quality match" in RoH yet business was doing good with him. Young Bucks could deliver a "top quality match", but how often that would happen exactly? People gladly came to see them clown around in multiman matches that were anything but "top quality".

[monster mafia]

ROH Best in the World happened last weekend and featured Matt Taven defeating Jeff Cobb in less than ten minutes to retain the ROH World title, ending Cobb’s undefeated streak cleanly.

According to The Wrestling Observer Newsletter, the feeling is that Taven had to win, because Cobb is going to be part of NJPW’s G-1 Climax tournament and will likely lose several matches. The belief in ROH is that it wouldn’t look good for their champion to lose multiple times in another promotion.

[Thelone]

Via WON:

None of the angles are hitting. ROH’s problem is that it was built as a high level match quality promotion as its calling card, and now, with the top workers that didn’t fit the WWE mold now having options like NXT and AEW and Sinclair going with the idea they weren’t going to try to be big, even after the growth of last year, they simply don’t have the talent to be what they were. And from production and storyline they’ll never be able to compete, so their calling card has to be great shows. The attempt to expand reach, whether using the former Beautiful People is what the base audience wouldn’t want, and thus far, this has not expanded the audience with the idea hot girls will bring in more guys or whatever the rationale is. Really, the entire women’s division in ROH is problematic. It feels like they have it because they would get criticized for not having it. But they don’t have the talent for the most part in it to compete with those divisions in other companies or be able to wrestle at the level of the other matches on the show. So it’s a negative on the shows. Whatever the WWE or AEW audience is, ROH shows are all about having top quality matches. And when, like with this show, you lack in the match quality and fan response, you can’t make up with it in entertainment value or heat or whatever.

First of all, they might as well dump the women's division. It's always been some weird vanity sideshow to keep wives/girlfriends busy (MsChif with Elgin, Leon with Delirious, Klein with Whitmer, Sky with Bully, probably forgetting some), and then it was to earn that sweet Youtube money until Google pulled the plug. I mean, do you want "bad" publicity because you don't have one, or bad publicity because it's shitty? MLW doesn't have one BECAUSE they only have one hour per week and wouldn't have time to feature it properly.

Overall, this is what happens when you settle for mediocrity and over-the-hill "stars" (men and women, kudos for not being sexist I guess). I mean, people are creaming their pants over ALEX SHELLEY coming back. Are the standards just that low nowadays?

I wouldn’t say that there wasn’t heat etc for matches I think that’s a bit off. Story lines aren’t picking up to a major fan base for sure but I do think a few are picking up within the ROH fan base and that’s what ROH is trying to do, it’s not about pleasing fans of the past or fans of any other company. It’s about trying to cultivate their own a fan base, not one due to the young bucks or New Japan and you know what that takes time especially when you have prepared for it poorly. They have a roster or close to, still need a few additions and story arch’s that can develop forward to a much stronger position on the future.

That's very much an issue with ROH and will become one for AEW if they keep catering only to their own existing fanbase. AEW has a hard time selling out their lesser shows already (that's concerning for TV crowds later on) and ROH's fanbase is dwindling because you don't even have great wrestling to compensate for weak/non-existent storytelling.

[AnHonorableMention]

The crowd was into the show. The only matches that the crowd may have hurt was the last two. The Briscoes are very over in Baltimore and it seemed like some people left after their match.

The folks on the floor with the sons of sandy fork were all relatives including Papa Mike Briscoe