Future of ROH

[Memphis Mark]

I know many on this board are more informed about ROH than I ever will be . Given the major talent drain , the declining attendance , the weak under card talent , the booking of friends /wives/ girlfriends and just horrible overall booking will SBGI corporate step in to save the company or will they let the current management group continue to fail ?

I think the following steps need to be taken by corporate .

1. Replace Joe Koff with an executive that has a wrestling backgound.

2. Replace Delirious and the entire booking team . Hire one booker and give him a one assistant

3. Stop booking friends , girlfriends , etc.

4. Drop the move toward the Sports Entertainment .

5. Return to what works. ROH is a work rate promotion . Don't try to compete with McMahon , be different.

6. Reshape the roster. Let go the comedy acts and marginal talents. Goodbye Boys, Cheeseburger , Ryan Nova, Vinny , Bouncers . Keep the BCB , just book him like a monster not a clown.

7. Produce a respectable women 's division or just drop the whole project.

8. Push young talent like the NJPW LA Dojo guys . These guys need to be pushed , they a ton of upside .

9. The ROH title program should involve Jeff Cobb , Brody King and RUSH . The audience will respond to these guys in the main event.

10. Book more CMLL talent.

11. Bring in more NJPW dojo guys for 6 months run . New talent cycling in and out of the under card ill help keep the product fresh.

12. Get serious about the ROH Dojo . Only bring young talent that actually has a chance to draw future money. Stop traning below average talent .

13. Sign Fred Yehi

Just a few thoughs .

[Chrisvegas27]

They are slowly making changes but it's too early to see how they will affect roh I mean it seems their using the dojo more and actually looking for stars their running new markets and trying new things like producing long term feuds I mean look at the latest t.v. taping and your point about using girlfriends I don't like it either but roh isn't the only one to ever push a talent because they was involved with someone in power

[SweetDaddy]

Just upgrade the roster.

That's what's killing it.

You cant have a good wrestling show with shitty wrestlers and ROH has far too many.

[AnHonorableMention]

From the longest of long term fans, I'll share this perspective with a little inside knowledge. ~JS

1. Replace Joe Koff with an executive that has a wrestling backgound.
Never going to happen, Joe in fact has a wrestling background search out Battle of the Belts. Greg Gilleland is the back up, this is how sinclair operates

2. Replace Delirious and the entire booking team . Hire one booker and give him a one assistant
Joe Koff looks at Delirious as a son, he's teflon. He, along with everyone else in creative should be shit canned immediately

3. Stop booking friends , girlfriends , etc.
This is how wrestling works, and always has. Lacey wouldn't have been booked if she wasn't dating Aries. Danger if she wasn't Corino's sister. Long history of it in ROH


4. Drop the move toward the Sports Entertainment .
These people aren't doing sports entertainment because when done right it's entertaining. The writing and booking suck. Bubba Ray Dudley should shoulder the bulk of the blame with Joey and Delirious also handling the blame.

5. Return to what works. ROH is a work rate promotion . Don't try to compete with McMahon , be different.
This requires spending money on keeping talent from AEW and WWE. Zero.zero chance of that.

6. Reshape the roster. Let go the comedy acts and marginal talents. Goodbye Boys, Cheeseburger , Ryan Nova, Vinny , Bouncers . Keep the BCB , just book him like a monster not a clown.
Bouncers are great but booked very poorly. They should be vicious monster heels. Burger has a role as a student graduate and has gotten over. The Boys can work, but need a gimmick reboot. Nova haven't see more than once so not sure. Marseglia has plenty of room to grow as a character.

7. Produce a respectable women 's division or just drop the whole project.
Dump it.

8. Push young talent like the NJPW LA Dojo guys . These guys need to be pushed , they a ton of upside .
Agree sky is the limit for those kids.


9. The ROH title program should involve Jeff Cobb , Brody King and RUSH . The audience will respond to these guys in the main event.
Agree, toss in Marty, Taven, & Lethal too.

10. Book more CMLL talent.
Depends on the market but yes.

11. Bring in more NJPW dojo guys for 6 months run . New talent cycling in and out of the under card ill help keep the product fresh.
They're still training so one or two a show in singles matches or a tag would be fine.

12. Get serious about the ROH Dojo . Only bring young talent that actually has a chance to draw future money. Stop traning below average talent .
Any talent can be average or great no matter who is training them. This is an unreasonable request

13. Sign Fred Yehi
Solid talent, not going to sell a ticket by himself. What is his mission statement, story, and character? Establish that then you sign him and get him going.

[monster mafia]

oh wow, another post about roh dying...cool!

[BurningHammer]

Right now I have no real issue with how a lot of the talent is booked and the idea the people behind the scenes have for the product. Apart from insistence of having Bully Ray constantly on TV he just needs to go away for ever now, it is well past it's sell by date.

I think for the most part people have been booked well and sensibly, I caveat that by saying right now, there is a much better direction and concept for everyone, bar PJ Black who needs far better detailing of his character to the audience. I personally think talent dictates how someone is booked, notice how people like Williams and Haskins are actually booked well and seriously where as BCB etc are joked about, talent levels gives you the direction you should go with. Although there are way too many heels right now.

I think you can look to Taven, Castle, Cobb, RUSH, Williams, Haskins, Taylor (Finally), Isom (although he needs to get away from SSS), Lethal, Brody, and PCO all as talents if you look at them singularly have been booked very well and given the right amount of time, matches and direction. Even how they used SOS just recently was great and needed for them.

The main issue ROH has is talent and forcing mediocre talent upon an audience, stop trying to fool an audience about who and what is a good to great wrestler. I have no problem with ROH using talent they consider their own and grow themselves just make sure they can actually hold their own in the ring.

I would personally replace BCB and Brian Milonas (Horrible in all aspects), Rhett Titus, Cheeseburger, Nova, Vinny Marseglia, TK O'Ryan (Although i'm always unsure on him) and especially most importantly Bully Ray (as an on air talent). Replace that with talent those that can be taken seriously, or even if you want a break and add comedy or a more relaxed match just make sure they can go. To me replacing all of that and you already have a much product. You can even replace two or three of those with ROH Dojo talents as they are already better than many of those guys.

ROH needs to bring in two to three more tag teams, again with talent and ability to create serious drama within a match without fucking up.

Bring in in five women and make sure they are excellent or at least offer something people can get into. Just to say I haven't actually had a problem with the Allure because it works for them and ROH has used them how they should be.

I wouldn't want any New Japan Dojo talent regurly as it devalues the idea of your own Dojo.

I think ROH does has an big issue with the ability to invest in talent, I think there is obviously a budget and they have to be able to find talent to fit into that. I do feel though that you can get talent currently better than those suggested that would still fit into the budget.

The people you have suggested are already involved or on their way to being challengers for the ROH title. Apart from Brody who he needs to go through the system and towards the TV title first.

I do want to end this by saying that ROH delivers more matches that I enjoy per hour and house show than any other US company. This is what frustrates me most is that ROH could really turn a huge corner with some changes.

[maxx_powerz]

I've always been pretty neutral on Delirious as booker, just because while he obviously is limited (lots of guys have no direction, he tends to recycle a lot of the same tropes, matches are too short etc.), he at least respects the history of ROH and considers SBG ROH to be a continuation of what came before. Obviously, we don't get the long title matches anymore or the random midcard match where he gives two guys a chance to steal the show, too much interference, etc. But by the same token, you don't have to worry about him trying to present the product like a modern Smokey Mountain or ECW.

I'm not saying that I would never replace him, but I am saying that in this current iteration of ROH, they would probably only replace him with a "big" name, and any "big" name they could replace him with probably would take the company in an even worse direction.

[kovs27]

I've always been pretty neutral on Delirious as booker, just because while he obviously is limited (lots of guys have no direction, he tends to recycle a lot of the same tropes, matches are too short etc.), he at least respects the history of ROH and considers SBG ROH to be a continuation of what came before. Obviously, we don't get the long title matches anymore or the random midcard match where he gives two guys a chance to steal the show, too much interference, etc. But by the same token, you don't have to worry about him trying to present the product like a modern Smokey Mountain or ECW.

I'm not saying that I would never replace him, but I am saying that in this current iteration of ROH, they would probably only replace him with a "big" name, and any "big" name they could replace him with probably would take the company in an even worse direction.

I think you raise a good question. If the booking team got fired, who replaces them. I honestly have no realistic ideas on who would take over.

[Big Red Machine]

To reply to multiple things different people have said all at once:

1. While I agree that this should happen, I also acknowledge that it never will. Given that, the best thing to do would be to educate Koff. Have someone from Creative sit down and watch old ROH matches and angle with him to help explain what their vision of ROH is and isn't.

2. Once again, while I'd like to see Delirious replaced (Lance Storm being my first choice), I don't think it's ever going to happen. That being said, I do think things would vastly improve with Delirious as the "head booker" setting the general direction and an assistant booker then filling in the details. Delirious' main weaknesses in terms of storytelling have been (in no particular order):
A. Making sure the details match the stated general direction
B. Follow-up on things that should be followed up on.
C. Undercard stories that drag on forever and never really have a satisfying payoff

I think all of these would be solved with Delirious saying "here is where I want to be in three months, here is where I want to be in six months, with such and such angles, such and such as top guys, etc. Get me there."

3. As was said, this is part of wrestling and part of life. The trick is to find a place where said friend/significant other/family member/whatever can contribute to the product instead of sticking them in a role they're not cut out for.

4. Wholeheartedly agree. You dance with the one that brought you. ROH got as far as it did pre-summer 2015 by being ROH, not by being someone else. Yes, the gates in 2016 were higher than in 2015, but the gates in 2015 were pretty damn great on their own (I believe they set a record for the year). Who is to say the company wouldn't have grown just as fast with a well-booked ROH product as it did with the sports entertainment/cult of Bullet Club product we saw in 2016-2108 that now has caused a down-turn because the cult leaders up and left.

5. See above.
I also disagree with the idea that being a work-rate promotion requires spending money that ROH doesn't have in order to keep people from going to WWE or AEW. Firstly, we saw this year with the additions of PCO, Bandido, Brody King, and Rush that ROH apparently is willing to spent quite a bit of money to get some great workers. But even if they werne't, there are always great workers out there waiting to be discovered. EVOLVE might not be what it used to be, but it's rare that anyone shows up in EVOLVE who I think "doesn't belong" in a work-rate promotion. ROH needs to have their ear to the ground and snatch up hot up-and-coming talent before they make it to the level that WWE or AEW (or even TNA or MLW) are going to go after them. They need to pounce on the next round of Curt Stallions and RASCALZ.

6. I agree with this, though I'd add BCB and O'Ryan as people who need to go due to being too tainted by the silliness around them. I think Cheeseburger can be kept in a sort of mascot role where he is everyone's favorite underdog, but that means he should rarely feature in stories and almost never win.
I'll also add to this that they should get rid of the trios titles. They serve no purpose and are not important in any way.

7. I think ROH is kind of stuck with this because the feeling today seems to be that if you don't have one then you're sexist. The best thing to do, then, would be to find a couple of darn good workers and lock them up, and use them as the basis of the division with everyone else rotating in and out based on whether or not you need them for a story.

8. They're good, but I wouldn't push them unless you've got them officially on your roster via their excursion.

9. I'd add Lethal, Dalton, Haskins, Kenny King, Tracy, Bandido, and maybe Taven to this mix. I think they also need to learn how to build guys up for title shots and then cycle them back down so that you have meaningful title defenses for HonorClub shows.

10. Depends on the market, but I'm not sold on booking these guys just to book them. If you don't have a real storyline purpose for them to come in then it's not worth it, so I'd want to make sure I can get about seven or eight dates on one of these guys over a few months before bringing them in.

11. I don't think this is under ROH's control.

12. This I disagree with. Everyone deserves a chance to be trained... but for the love of G-d don't feature below-average talent on your shows.

13. YES!

[Big Red Machine]

I think for the most part people have been booked well and sensibly, I caveat that by saying right now, there is a much better direction and concept for everyone, bar PJ Black who needs far better detailing of his character to the audience. I personally think talent dictates how someone is booked, notice how people like Williams and Haskins are actually booked well and seriously where as BCB etc are joked about, talent levels gives you the direction you should go with. Although there are way too many heels right now.

I think you can look to Taven, Castle, Cobb, RUSH, Williams, Haskins, Taylor (Finally), Isom (although he needs to get away from SSS), Lethal, Brody, and PCO all as talents if you look at them singularly have been booked very well and given the right amount of time, matches and direction. Even how they used SOS just recently was great and needed for them.

I very much disagree that a good chunk of the people you mentioned have been booked well. Haskins had done nothing until this weekend and Williams has still done nothing. As I noted in a review, LifeBlood itself hasn't actually done anything. They have a mission statement, but haven't actually had any sort of storyline with it that has gone anywhere.
The only thing that has really changed about Taylor recently is that he had one awesome match and then the put a title on him. We still don't know anything about his personality other than "he is a heel." While Rush has been booked strongly, the way they have booked him has made me less interested in his matches because they always go so short.

[BurningHammer]

I think for the most part people have been booked well and sensibly, I caveat that by saying right now, there is a much better direction and concept for everyone, bar PJ Black who needs far better detailing of his character to the audience. I personally think talent dictates how someone is booked, notice how people like Williams and Haskins are actually booked well and seriously where as BCB etc are joked about, talent levels gives you the direction you should go with. Although there are way too many heels right now.

I think you can look to Taven, Castle, Cobb, RUSH, Williams, Haskins, Taylor (Finally), Isom (although he needs to get away from SSS), Lethal, Brody, and PCO all as talents if you look at them singularly have been booked very well and given the right amount of time, matches and direction. Even how they used SOS just recently was great and needed for them.

I very much disagree that a good chunk of the people you mentioned have been booked well. Haskins had done nothing until this weekend and Williams has still done nothing. As I noted in a review, LifeBlood itself hasn't actually done anything. They have a mission statement, but haven't actually had any sort of storyline with it that has gone anywhere.
The only thing that has really changed about Taylor recently is that he had one awesome match and then the put a title on him. We still don't know anything about his personality other than "he is a heel." While Rush has been booked strongly, the way they have booked him has made me less interested in his matches because they always go so short.

I don't see booking as just story line it's placement in the card, importance of the match you have, the type of match expected, how you are featured in that match etc.

Even regardless of all of that, Haskins and Williams have been heavily shown in the fued with Bully, which has continued throughout TV for over a month now, plus online profile and house shows recently, plus they were even added to the G1 Supercard match which overall no matter of the match itself to be involved in that is important. It's like your saying booking should be immediate and without depth, the booking of LifeBlood needs to only define the group but also people in it with only an hour to play with each week and some house shows that takes time, especially if you want to take them seriously. I personally think they've made sure that both Haskins and Williams should be taken seriously as wrestlers and personalities. They have kept Haskins strong coming out of the title match

Taylors is surely playing the bruiser role, the guy in the group because he hasn't been given the chances and is forcing the hand of ROH by getting the wins and making himself heard. In his matches he smack talks and tries to bully his oppenents that surely gives you idea of his charachter and personality as a whole.

RUSH's matches have been getting longer and longer as time goes on, that's obviously the process they are taking and he will get that big match with Castle that will surely be going the distance. I think you have to take into account that not everyone watches every ROH event or TV show or even familiar with RUSH in some markets so you have to introduce him as you have been protraying him everywhere else again that takes time considering the length of space between tapings etc.

[Big Red Machine]

I think for the most part people have been booked well and sensibly, I caveat that by saying right now, there is a much better direction and concept for everyone, bar PJ Black who needs far better detailing of his character to the audience. I personally think talent dictates how someone is booked, notice how people like Williams and Haskins are actually booked well and seriously where as BCB etc are joked about, talent levels gives you the direction you should go with. Although there are way too many heels right now.

I think you can look to Taven, Castle, Cobb, RUSH, Williams, Haskins, Taylor (Finally), Isom (although he needs to get away from SSS), Lethal, Brody, and PCO all as talents if you look at them singularly have been booked very well and given the right amount of time, matches and direction. Even how they used SOS just recently was great and needed for them.

I very much disagree that a good chunk of the people you mentioned have been booked well. Haskins had done nothing until this weekend and Williams has still done nothing. As I noted in a review, LifeBlood itself hasn't actually done anything. They have a mission statement, but haven't actually had any sort of storyline with it that has gone anywhere.
The only thing that has really changed about Taylor recently is that he had one awesome match and then the put a title on him. We still don't know anything about his personality other than "he is a heel." While Rush has been booked strongly, the way they have booked him has made me less interested in his matches because they always go so short.

I don't see booking as just story line it's placement in the card, importance of the match you have, the type of match expected, how you are featured in that match etc.

Even regardless of all of that, Haskins and Williams have been heavily shown in the fued with Bully, which has continued throughout TV for over a month now, plus online profile and house shows recently, plus they were even added to the G1 Supercard match which overall no matter of the match itself to be involved in that is important. It's like your saying booking should be immediate and without depth, the booking of LifeBlood needs to only define the group but also people in it with only an hour to play with each week and some house shows that takes time, especially if you want to take them seriously. I personally think they've made sure that both Haskins and Williams should be taken seriously as wrestlers and personalities. They have kept Haskins strong coming out of the title match

LifeBlood have been put in main events, but as time has gone on they (aside from Bandido) have felt more and more like guys who are only seen as "main eventers" because we're told they are at that level, rather than guys who are actually treated like main eventers by the booking. I think if you actually look back at what has happened you'll find that they have only really been involved with Bully since the end of March. Bully's involvement in the main event in Houston was all Bully's doing and had nothing to do with LifeBlood (he was angry at Tod Sinclair for awarding Flip the I Quit match even though Bully claims he never quit), and from that point until the end of March there were several instances where Bully and pals ran out and attacked people or threatened them and LifeBlood sat on their asses in the back and didn't do anything about it even though we knew they were in the building because we had seen them earlier that night. And until last week's Toronto show, nothing had really happened in their feud with Bully and pals.

The reason I would expect LifeBlood members to feel like they have some sort of depth to them at this point is because they haven't actually been doing anything else. They were a group founded with a clear mission statement and if they had stuck to that mission statement the lack of depth wouldn't bother me. The problem is that they haven't stuck to that mission statement. Sure, they do it when the plot wants them to, but if these are the guys who are going to "restore honor to ROH" then I expect them to be the self-appointed police, running out and preventing people from cheating or interfering, and when they are unable to stop someone from doing so, they should be calling that person out to teach them a lesson, as well lobbying management to sign a rematch between the cheater and cheated, then coming out to ringside to keep a close eye on the match.
But they rarely do anything like that, and on the rare occasion that they do, it has to do with Bully and his pals, who they are already feuding with. The only bit of character they have been given is that they want to "restore honor to ROH," but they're not really taking steps to do that, so what then what character do they actually have? If they've defined the group but then the group doesn't act in accordance with that definition, then they really aren't defined.

They might have protected Haskins in his loss to Taven, but they completely failed to make him look strong going into the match. He was 2-3 in singles matches since losing to Lethal, and one of those wins was over the Beer City Bruiser. having wrestlers not lose is easy. The part that requires effort is to book them in a way that makes people actually care about them so that when they get a title shot people think they have a snowball's chance in heel of winning in the first place.

Taylors is surely playing the bruiser role, the guy in the group because he hasn't been given the chances and is forcing the hand of ROH by getting the wins and making himself heard. In his matches he smack talks and tries to bully his oppenents that surely gives you idea of his charachter and personality as a whole.

I don't really see Taylor as getting so many wins where he feels like someone who is forcing ROH's hand and making them give him the opportunities he feels he has been unjustly denied. He just feels like a big dude, angry dude with a record that isn't very impressive and ROH only gave into him because the story needed ROH to do so.
Things like this are why I harp so much on wins and losses mattering and the kayfabe authority being consistent in their behaviors and wrestlers being allowed to cut their own promos. If Taylor had been winning matches (particularly if they had been clean but even if they weren't) and then grabbing a mic and angrily ranting about how he keeps kicking evreyone's ass and ROH management hasn't given him a damn thing for it, I would agree with you, but that hasn't been happening. Instead we've had Taylor win a couple of matches but also lose some (and especially losing singles matches against big-name opponents), then we were told on the website that he had been asking for his four-way to become a title match and so ROH made it one. As I said in my review, if ROH believed that Taylor had earned a title shot, shouldn't they have booked him in a singles match with Cobb at one of the northwest shows for the title? Taylor earned the title shot, but what did Brody King and Hirooki Goto do to earn one? And why are they giving Taylor and those other two guys a title shot when Rush has been undefeated for months and beaten bigger names than Taylor has beaten and they're sticking him in a four-way #1 contendership match with a bunch of guys he has already beaten? When I see these things, I see them in the context of the rest of what is going on in the promotion, and when looking at them in that context, what it really feels like is:

Spoiler: show

The four-way was made a title match so that they have Cobb lose without getting pinned to keep that streak alive and also get the TV Title off of him so that it wouldn't be tied up in the world title picture when he challenges Taven for the world title at the PPV.

The "character" you proposed for Shane Taylor is not inaccurate, but the character of a big bruiser who bullies his opponents and is also angry because he doesn't think management has been giving him opportunities has been Shane Taylor's character since the moment Keith Lee left ROH over two years ago, and the character hasn't developed since. Putting him with Bully Ray with no explanation also waters him down a lot, as he is just another generic heel in Bully's group, who are all together because... um... because they're heels, and that's the only reason we have been given in the six months they've been a group.

RUSH's matches have been getting longer and longer as time goes on, that's obviously the process they are taking and he will get that big match with Castle that will surely be going the distance. I think you have to take into account that not everyone watches every ROH event or TV show or even familiar with RUSH in some markets so you have to introduce him as you have been protraying him everywhere else again that takes time considering the length of space between tapings etc.

Speaking as one of those people who was pretty unfamiliar with Rush before he came to ROH (I'd seen a few matches over the past few years, but certainly not more than five), the reason I was excited he was coming in was that I heard he had great matches, and the fact that the hasn't been given the chance to do that makes his run disappointing to me so far. I also think that having his other matches go shorter than one might expect given the level of his opponent actually takes away from the story with Dalton Castle, as it makes Dalton's loss less of an aberration and thus slightly less embarrassing.
I am also bothered by timing of everything, as it very much feels like this "he beats guys quickly" thing was tacked on after the match with Dalton. before that they had no problem letting him go 12-15 minutes with people at house shows or PPVs. His house show matches since the Dalton match have all been shorter than the TV matches he was having before the Dalton match.