ROH/NJPW G1 Supercard Official Thread

[kovs27]

I have read so many comments about how njpw needs to cut roh and stardom should do the same and get a partnership with aew instead

I've seen the same comments, part of what I was talking about in my earlier comment. The very idea of ditching a now longtime strong partner for a group that hasn't held a show on their own yet is ridiculous. At least let AEW prove their worth first. Let alone that they have a working relationship who is basically the mortal enemy of your longest partner CMLL.

[Chrisvegas27]

Yeah I have been seeing it from Roh fans to njpw even impact fans that didn't even watch the show complaining about how Roh dragged the show down

[Big Red Machine]

I thought if this show underwhelmed ROH would be blamed, fairly or not. What I did not expect, and am very disappointed in, is that there seems to be a large contingent (on Twitter at least) that resents ROH's involvement and never had any interest in giving them a fair shot. Treating the double title matches as NJPW matches (making it easier to belittle what ROH contributed to the card), and I have never seen so many people claim to let themselves lose interest in an entire show because of a ten minute under card match or short post match skirmish. And don't get me started on the Bully Ray match, which half the crowd was determined to shit on if it was anything besides their beloved Ishii or Suzuki squashing Bully. I consider myself pretty neutral leaning negative towards the current state of ROH, but a lot of the reviews I'm reading on other sites had the outline of their review - ROH drags down NJPW super show - before the show started and just were reaching for whatever obscure perceived slights against wrestling they could crowdsource to fill in the blanks.

I can't speak to anyone else's experiences, especially for people who only wanted to see New Japan matches and had very little interest in ROH, but I came into this show thinking they would operate here based on their last few months of storytelling from the wrestlers during matches and with decisive outcomes. We instead got loaded with, speaking from the heart, TNA-esque angles that showed ROH to be at their worst impulses when they're given the attention. It reversed a lot of slowly mounting momentum they had been building as a more in-ring, indie-stars-of-this-moment kind of promotion. I think people are right to call out how this contrasted so heavily with New Japan's method of telling the aspects that are essential to their promotion in their matches.

I will second Wilson's comments, but with the caveat that I thought certain highly-anticipated New Japan matches underdelivered as well, and that seems to be something of a developing pattern with the way their new owenership handles major shows like this, favoring keeping things short over making sure all of the matches get the necessary time. The IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title match and Zack vs. Tanahashi both felt like they could- and should- have been a lot better than they were.

[Big Red Machine]

I have read so many comments about how njpw needs to cut roh and stardom should do the same and get a partnership with aew instead

I've seen the same comments, part of what I was talking about in my earlier comment. The very idea of ditching a now longtime strong partner for a group that hasn't held a show on their own yet is ridiculous. At least let AEW prove their worth first. Let alone that they have a working relationship who is basically the mortal enemy of your longest partner CMLL.

You're not wrong, but I will say that if it means taking ROH's place working with NJPW, I have no doubt AEW would kick AAA to the curb in a heartbeat.

[maxx_powerz]

I thought if this show underwhelmed ROH would be blamed, fairly or not. What I did not expect, and am very disappointed in, is that there seems to be a large contingent (on Twitter at least) that resents ROH's involvement and never had any interest in giving them a fair shot. Treating the double title matches as NJPW matches (making it easier to belittle what ROH contributed to the card), and I have never seen so many people claim to let themselves lose interest in an entire show because of a ten minute under card match or short post match skirmish. And don't get me started on the Bully Ray match, which half the crowd was determined to shit on if it was anything besides their beloved Ishii or Suzuki squashing Bully. I consider myself pretty neutral leaning negative towards the current state of ROH, but a lot of the reviews I'm reading on other sites had the outline of their review - ROH drags down NJPW super show - before the show started and just were reaching for whatever obscure perceived slights against wrestling they could crowdsource to fill in the blanks.

I can't speak to anyone else's experiences, especially for people who only wanted to see New Japan matches and had very little interest in ROH, but I came into this show thinking they would operate here based on their last few months of storytelling from the wrestlers during matches and with decisive outcomes. We instead got loaded with, speaking from the heart, TNA-esque angles that showed ROH to be at their worst impulses when they're given the attention. It reversed a lot of slowly mounting momentum they had been building as a more in-ring, indie-stars-of-this-moment kind of promotion. I think people are right to call out how this contrasted so heavily with New Japan's method of telling the aspects that are essential to their promotion in their matches.

My comment is not towards ROH fans who are worried about what this promotion will look like going forward, because I count myself in that group.

This is about a show with a very good ROH title match, very good ROH tv title match and fun sprint of a ROH tag title match (plus an entertaining squash) being ignored and a poor WOH title match and a wonky hardcore trios match being over analyzed.

[kovs27]

I have read so many comments about how njpw needs to cut roh and stardom should do the same and get a partnership with aew instead

I've seen the same comments, part of what I was talking about in my earlier comment. The very idea of ditching a now longtime strong partner for a group that hasn't held a show on their own yet is ridiculous. At least let AEW prove their worth first. Let alone that they have a working relationship who is basically the mortal enemy of your longest partner CMLL.

You're not wrong, but I will say that if it means taking ROH's place working with NJPW, I have no doubt AEW would kick AAA to the curb in a heartbeat.

And to add to your point, knowing AAA's history they'll do something to screw up the partnership with AEW sooner rather than later.

[supersonic]

https://twitter.com/nwowolfpactv/status ... 66785?s=21

This is an interesting point of view really....but im still on the bad site of this.

"Interesting" is the post polite way to put it. The ROH/CZW feud worked because there were two sides and the feud played into each side's fans' preconceived notions about the other side and the other side's fans. Enzo and Cass are two dudes who no one really seems to care to see. It's not like people are running around clamoring to get Cass booked like you've seen with other guys who leave WWE. Getting heat by dragging your product down by booking sh*tty wrestlers is completely moronic.

There are many who actually love Enzo, as he's an elite talker with absurd charisma. He knows how to have the crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. These same fans don't give a fuck about pure wrestling. It has the chance to really be something special, especially if it ends in a War Games style match. Granted, the CZW stars booked in 2006 were much superior performers, but this might just work.

I'm far more concerned about the direction for the ROH Title coming out of this weekend. I'm glad Taven works hard. So does Tony Nese. Where's his buzz to prove any of it has actually mattered? Who's aching for a Kenny King push, even a short-term one? He has to proven to be above average at best over the past decade.

If I'm ROH, I also would wanna make sure that whoever my top champion, he can be compared to whoever ends being the top AEW champion, because that's gonna be the direct competition. Taven isn't gonna measure up to Page, Jericho, Cody, Omega, or anyone else likely to get that spot.

[SweetDaddy]

Page wasnt shit in ROH and Cody's never earned anything but a WWE pink slip in his career.

Im no Taven fan but lets not act like Cody or Page are whats gonna keep that ship afloat.

[BurningHammer]

Taven has already shown he has more in ring talent than Cody, his huge amount of fans will really disagree but Cody is/was never capable of having a sixty minute match like Taven did against Lethal. Page should go on to be a semi main eventer but he still has a long way to go.

The world title still has other challengers coming through in RUSH, Flip and imagine Cobb in the not too distant future. Along with Lethal and other challengers that’s a lot of variety of talent and matches, especially RUSH.

With regards to Enzo and Cass their are two ways I can see it working l, long term is that they team up with Bully Ray faction and go against Life Blood or ROH as a whole. You could even add others from outside say from Impact/TNA, WWE and really make it a CZW style war.

Or just have a few short bursts of them invading during shows and then finally a couple of blow off matches and they are done.

[famicommander]

Or just cut their losses now and never book those two scrub losers again.

[supersonic]

Cody has BUZZ and STAR POWER, lots of it. Taven does not. Counting out Page out now sounds similar to doing the same about DDP in 1996 or HHH in early 1999.

[Montana]

I'm no Cody fan, but i feel more confident in him as a booker/promoter than a wrestler with "star power" He did an excellent job marketing, and bringing more eyes to ROH, but think a lot of his buzz/star power is more around things like All in/ Bullet Club / Being the Elite / etc. Don't think Cody is a main event player in a big company. I agree Page is a future star, but i also think he needs to be an environment that can put in over as a star. Like if i'm AEW, i'd probably put the belt on Omega/Jericho over Page. The other thing AEW will need to consider, is not putting BTE guys over too much.

It'll be interesting if they get a live show on prime time, how AEW will do ratings wise. I gotta think if they get TNA numbers, they'll be very happy.

I'm looking forward to the Matt Taven era. I'm open to seeing what Bully/Mercury can bring to ROH.

[monster mafia]

taven is better than cody, but cody is a draw power.

rush needs to be elevated to the moon, he needs to be the babyface of roh this year before wwe offers him a lot of money.

just put the tv tittle on bandido and push jeff cobb to the main event scene too.

[BurningHammer]

Cody has BUZZ and STAR POWER, lots of it. Taven does not. Counting out Page out now sounds similar to doing the same about DDP in 1996 or HHH in early 1999.

I would never suggest other wise but I don’t think Taven is incapable of getting to that level if given the opportunity by fans to grow. Taven’s performances have been of a high standard both on the mic and in the ring, fans just need to let their guard down with him and except that reality. One thing I would do is get him away from Vinny and TK it would take away much of the ‘oh not them again’, plus as a tag team they have enough character to run on their own.

There is just something about page that to me will never send him too the very top, it’s just a personal thing. I don’t think he has that extra aura to get him over as the top guy.

ROH for what’s it worth is trying to create its own deeper fan base without the like of Cody can it work I think so but it needs patience and time. Wether the wrestling world can give ROH yet that I don’t know.

[WHG]

As someone who hasn’t been nearly as invested in ROH the last couple years, I think the negatively around ROH following the show is excessive. I agree with a lot of what maxx said, particularly that people largely have ignored that Cobb, Bandito, the Briscoes and PCO/King were part of the “ROH portion” of the show. I actually thought there were some real positives to the booking on the show. Notably:
- Cobb was put in a great match, looked great and got a big win. I realize he’s worked more in NJPW, but he’s very much an ROH talent on that show and in general moving forward.
- Rush/Castle was booked perfectly. Rush looked like a monster squashing a recent ROH Champion and Castle comes out of it with a new direction, which he badly needed.
- Booking the ROH title in a ladder match was actually one of the smarter decisions. It offered something different and kept those guys from having to try to compete with the workrate of the top NJPW title matches.
- One of everyone’s favorite moments on the show was the Muta/Liger showdown. While that isn’t anything positive directionally to the promotion, ROH made that happen and it was a simple but great call for the show.

I despise Bully Ray and the garbage with the rap guy and the whole beautiful people angle, but I don’t think it should tarnish everything good on the show. I also don’t love the idea of bringing in Enzo & Cass…but they literally didn’t even show/mention it, so people acting like they had them interfere in the middle of the main event finish seems unwarranted.

Finally, the most irritating thing is the attitude that New Japan should want to distance itself from ROH based on the show. Some facts:

1) New Japan would never have even tried to run the Garden on their own or (most likely) with any other promotion. For everything people have said negatively about Sinclair’s commitment to ROH, they took a tremendous financial risk by booking that venue. In hindsight it seems like an easy call, but Lakeland didn’t sell out it’s 3,800 seats until the day of the show 2 years ago and NOLA last year with a lot of interest sold well but didn’t convince me they could sell 16k tickets this year. By all accounts, MSG is the most expensive arena in the country to run. Never mind the legal pushback required to eventually get the show booked that any other promotion probably wouldn’t have bothered challenging.
2) If this show happened in any other venue, there is no way New Japan brings that card or the moments (double title matches, big title changes).
3) ROH let New Japan shine, as it should have for the relationship and what the fans in attendance wanted. It gave them the time and the spots to do that without needing to flex their muscles. Many promotions wouldn’t have done that given points 1 & 2 above.

I actually feel better about the direction of ROH than I have in 2+ years because they've been forced to freshen things up.

[Wilson]

I didn't think it needed explaining, but the reason people are asking for New Japan to cut ties with ROH isn't because of any logistical reasons it's because ROH does things like book three angles in a row on the undercard (two being eerily reminiscent of bad Attitude era style of wrestling) and the completely gauche Enzo/Cass segment at Madison Square Garden. It was absolutely the wrong night to test these things out and the wrong type of approach to attract people who were already tentative/disinterested by the brand of ROH.

The only thing I feel scandalized by during the show was Enzo/Cass, but I am pretty concerned about the shape of things if we get more things like this as a result of Bully climbing into the creative cockpit. His ideas of pro-wrestling are so unappealing to me, which is a shame because ROH has been having a remarkable few months of rebuilding.

[WHG]

I get that logistics aren’t the reason people are calling for New Japan to cut ties with ROH...I’m saying they should actually consider ROH’s role in the show happening as part of the equation.

That actually brings up another point: I’m 100% sure that people were locked and loaded to jump on stream/production issues. For the scale of the show, ROH delivered. Think about where they were just a few years ago and it’s mind-boggling to think they pulled off a show that looked like that on a live multi-platform stream.

In total agreement on Bully. If anything positive comes from the negative backlash, it hopefully gives them a view of the stuff that didn’t connect on that show.

[Chrisvegas27]

I'm not going to complain to much about bully because he about characters and look what he done for flip gordon and to be honest I'm more excited to see what comes of this weekend tapings than a week ago

[Montana]

Seems like this is the same ole "insert wrestling company" tries to expand and grow it's fanbase beyond the current size, and the "traditionalist" think it's ruining the company. It happened with ECW, WCW, TNA, and several times with ROH.

I get it ppl hate Enzo/Cass and the Allure, but sometimes you have to roll the dice. Enzo/Cass might be exactly what ROH needs with a lot of hype surrounding AEW. If they are cleaned up/and get their stuff together, they can probably make themselves and ROH a lot of money. If not, ROH just releases them, after a Briscoe beat down. I will say, that was a really good way to pull off the angle, bc when enzo/Cass first showed up, everyone was like WTF... whats going on??

So far i've liked the new direction after losing a lot of talent to AEW. ROH had made several great additions (Cobb, Rush, Bandido, Haskins, Juice, Etc) Now we get a new ROH champion, and really opens things up storyline wise.

[Chrisvegas27]

Dave Meltzer on his review said njpw needs to cut roh for aew so it's not just the fans but journalists to