The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

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Wilson
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The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by Wilson »

It's all but official that Dalton Castle is challenging Cody at Final Battle. PPVs and select live events seem to alternate in importance, though Final Battle tends more often than not to be the promotion's big one. Building Dalton up in this role is one of ROH's rarer instances of building up one of their own talents into a legitimate World Title contention.

To give some perspective, here are ROH's live PPV World Title defenses:

Adam Cole vs. Michael Elgin (BITW 2014)
Jay Briscoe vs. Adam Cole (FB 2014)
Jay Briscoe vs. Tomasso Ciampa vs. Hanson vs. Michael Elgin (13YA)
Jay Briscoe vs. Jay Lethal (BITW 2015)
Jay Lethal vs. Kyle O'Reilly (ASE 2015)
Jay Lethal vs. AJ Styles (FB 2015)
Jay Lethal vs. Kyle O'Reilly vs. Adam Cole (14YA)
Jay Lethal vs. Colt Cabana (GW 2016)
Jay Lethal vs. Jay Briscoe (BITW 2016)
Jay Lethal vs. Adam Cole (DBD 2016)
Adam Cole vs. Michael Elgin (ASE 2016)
Adam Cole vs. Kyle O'Reilly (FB 2016)
Adam Cole vs. Christopher Daniels (15YA)
Christopher Daniels vs. Cody vs. Jay Lethal (GW 2017)
Christopher Daniels vs. Cody (BITW 2017)
Cody vs. Minoru Suzuki (DBD 2017)

Dalton Castle will be the first Sinclair ROH-established wrestler to be introduced to a PPV main event since September 18, 2015, which spans ten PPVs. His highest placement on a PPV card was during Best in the World 2016, when he challenged Bobby Fish for the TV Title in the semi-main event. This is his second opportunity at the World Title.

No Top Prospect Tournament participant has won the World Title since the inaugural series in 2011 (Cole, Elgin, and O'Reilly).

So this feels like a big deal, especially since the outcome of this match feels very unpredictable despite how heavily emphasized Bullet Club has been on the the product this year. Personally, I was very disappointed that Adam Cole was not really used to get a newer talent over before he finally joined the WWE, which left the direction of the World Title into Daniels's and Cody's hands. Although ROH has been doing well selling through on tickets and PPVs, it hardly speaks of their to success in developing the next charge of main events talents. For a promotion that outright brands itself in creating excellence, the fostering of new wrestling leaders and shakers has come off as mostly incidental. In recent years, ROH has eschewed in-ring work and storytelling for a talent's ability to draw on their own terms or to possibly be of convenience to NJPW. Dalton stands right now as bearing some of those earmarks: he has gotten over without needing to put on killer matches; he has so far seemed to impress New Japan, especially in the midcard role, which is typically how NJPW uses ROH talent on their shows; he's a charismatic babyface that can probably sell more merch than anyone on the roster without Bullet Club fonts. For the first time in a long time, Dalton Castle feels like ROH is picking the right guy in the right time.

Considering that the build to this program will extend from August to December, this will be the most labored World Title storiy the company has sold since Adam Cole was having PPV matches with Lethal and O'Reilly. Do you find yourself digging this program, taking place now in such a Bullet Club-swaddled era? What are the chances Dalton actually wins the belt at Final Battle? Will he take irreparable damage if he loses?
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by famicommander »

He can't lose cleanly at Final Battle. I could see some Bullet Club shenanigans putting his crowning off until Supercard of Honor, but he can't lose cleanly.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by maxx_powerz »

I mentioned in the Soaring Eagle thread that I think there is a chance Cody holds onto the belt until Danielson's contract status is resolved. I think the smart money is on Castle winning, but the push does feel very forced to me and I wonder how committed to this main event push that management is.

That said, you make the valid point that ROH has a long history of waiting too long to crown a hot act, so maybe they are trying to get out in front for once. My concern would be that he has never really delivered in the ring. But Cody hasn't either, so I'm probably more inclined than usual to let this play out and see if Castle has a higher gear he's been holding back or can reach.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by Wilson »

*SPOILERS* FROM 10/21 PHILADELPHIA TV TAPINGS:

Results from Brian Streleckis at PWPonderings. http://www.pwponderings.com/2017/10/21/ ... -spoilers/
Cody made his grand entrance and promised to defend the World Title tonight. Fans chanted for Ian to get the title shot. Cody called Ian over and asked who he felt deserved the shot, and Ian said Dalton Castle. Cody got the crowd excited for the possibility of Castle challenging him, but then got heat for saying Castle wasn’t here tonight. He instead said he would defend the title against “Philadelphia’s Favorite Son,” Ryan Nova, a small wrestler announced as being from Hamilton, NJ right afterward.

[...]

Afterward, Dalton Castle came out after all, making his surprise return after being beat down by Cody in Scotland. He asked rhetorically if that (Cody’s match) is what the biggest contract in ROH is paying for. He said he’s not mad, just disappointed. He said Cody was “a good… no great… no good wrestler,” then asked if he wanted a real challenge. Cody said he can’t just come out and request a title match like this, and then he said he could make a call to Jane Geddes, but then corrected himself and said he’d put in a call to “Paul” and get Castle a developmental contract, joining his friends for guaranteed money. He told him to think about it and was walking away when Castle jumped him, threw him back in the ring, and hit him with the Bangarang. Castle said he thought about it, but he likes it here, and that he’s going to take Cody’s title.

[...]

Dalton Castle beat Adam Page with a kimura/cobra clutch combo submission. Cody sat in on commentary. No robe and no Boys for Castle. Good competitive match that Castle nearly won before Cody pulled the ref out of the ring. After some back-and-forth attempts at finishers and Page clocking heads with Cody, Castle hit him with a deadlift German to lead into this new submission hold. Afterward, Cody got in Castle’s face, Page clipped Castle’s knee, and the two of them beat up Castle.
If there's one thing Cody has proved himself to be useful while in ROH, it's been that he can work the taping segments pretty well. Which makes sense, as ROH on SBG uses a rather well-worn, familiar TV layout. Dalton is about as white-meat as they come, so the story of malicious injury, absence, and repeated charges toward the person in power works for everyone. It's minor, but Cody erring on his working relationship with the WWE is self-defeating in Bullet Club's general anti-McMahonry. Also, perhaps Cody should be showing a bit more ass in this buildup.

What I really am looking forward to is Dalton's refraining from using the Boys as a crutch in this program and retooling his major offense. Not using the Boys here sells his focus, and actually sells the spectacle for when he challenges Cody, in which the Boys either make a big return or Dalton commits to the task himself. Once Dalton does get made as a main eventer, I would like to see his entrance being reimagined, and maybe even bigger than the entrance we've seen for almost three years.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

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maxx_powerz wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:47 am I mentioned in the Soaring Eagle thread that I think there is a chance Cody holds onto the belt until Danielson's contract status is resolved. I think the smart money is on Castle winning, but the push does feel very forced to me and I wonder how committed to this main event push that management is.

That said, you make the valid point that ROH has a long history of waiting too long to crown a hot act, so maybe they are trying to get out in front for once. My concern would be that he has never really delivered in the ring. But Cody hasn't either, so I'm probably more inclined than usual to let this play out and see if Castle has a higher gear he's been holding back or can reach.
Well, if that match does in fact happen, it doesn't need the title on the line. Besides, if Danielson does come back, would it be most politic to just blow most teased and most consequential match all in one go? Granted, Cody does well while in the Bullet Club, but I'm not convinced that any of that hinges on his being the top champion. I don't think you would lose anything in putting him in multi-mans or in the upper midcard. Actually, I think that's where he belongs.

ROH right now isn't so much delaying the trigger-pull as it is not effectively building the next crop of main event talent. With the roster they have now, I think Dalton really is their best guy. He is ultra, ultra charismatic. Just listening to him on radio interviews, I would hazard to guess that there is probably a lot of character still untapped and worth exploring. In-ring, he is definitely not where I think a main event talent should be, but hey it hasn't stopped Cody or 2017 Daniels or Cole.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by AlexROH »

I think Dalton winning the title at Final Battle is the right move. BC is so over and I don't think they need the world title right now, IMO. Cody Rhodes is great for the promo stuff, but I don't think he needs the world title to sell tickets. Dalton is the only young talent that is more over than the BC. Plus, I really see him as a great in-ring wrestler.

When ROH does a long program like this, it normally means that we're going to see a title change. I only see Dalton winning or Cody retaining with a fuck finish, and I'm sure that since going into live PPV, Delirious is booking Final Battle as a big show and he has never booked a fuck finish in a FB ME so I'm all in for Dalton as the next world champ.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by The Dragon Saga »

I think Dalton needs the title, but Cody doesn't, at least for now. Give Dalton the title at FB but have Cody win it back down the line, if for example Bryan does come back some time next year, the money match there is obviously Cody and Bryan, but if they can make Dalton a pseudo face of the company behind Lethal, then I think that would be good for both ROH and all parties involved.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

I think it's a disservice to Dalton Castle to base the length of his title reign on a guy who may or may not come back to ROH. I love Danielson almost as much as Supersonic, but is he definitely coming back to ROH? Everyone has been bitching about the lack of young talent ascending to the main event. Now you finally got a guy and everyone wants to take the title off him and put it back on Cody in case Danielson comes back. The best option for me is to have Danielson (if he even comes back), challenge Castle for the title. Danielson would elevate Castle's stock better than anyone in pro wrestling.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by Wilson »

Promotional video for Cody vs. Dalton Castle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8ckprk9lkc

While I think this match is nearly a lock for Cody to retain, this feud has been the most we've seen Cody work to get an opponent over. Any ideas where he could go next if he loses? Jay Briscoe and Punishment Martinez should be available after Final Battle, the former having a lot of grist to work with in terms of a program.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by famicommander »

I think if Cody loses they're going to build him back up, so Martinez or Briscoe may not be the place they go first. Maybe a guy like Kenny King or Gresham could work a short program with Cody going over.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by dhads7161 »

Dalton's gotta be winning here. I honestly can't see Ibushi losing to Cody at the Tokyo Dome but I also don't see him holding the ROH World Championship.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by famicommander »

dhads7161 wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:40 pm Dalton's gotta be winning here. I honestly can't see Ibushi losing to Cody at the Tokyo Dome but I also don't see him holding the ROH World Championship.
This is a compelling point, but it's hard to imagine them not rolling into Supercard of Honor with the belt on their biggest draw. They're trying to draw, what, 5,000-7,000 people?

I hope Dalton Castle wins. I think it would result in better World Title matches and more fresh matchups. But it's also easy to see why they wouldn't want to make a change when they're doing their best business ever.

I hope they don't hot potato the title around like they did around this season last year. I don't want to see Dalton have a short reign only to drop it back to Cody. If he wins, it needs to stick.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by maxx_powerz »

I think Cody & Scurll working regularly as a tag team would give Cody something relatively important to do while keeping him out of the main event scene for a bit, plus you can start planting the seeds of discontent between Cody and Marty more easily in case they ever go that route. And you would freshen up the tag team division a bit. I think Cody & Marty wrestled the Addiction during the last UK tour, but there's new matches with the Machine Guns, War Machine, Best Friends, the Briscoes, maybe even the Bucks under the right circumstances.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by dhads7161 »

famicommander wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:56 pm
dhads7161 wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:40 pm Dalton's gotta be winning here. I honestly can't see Ibushi losing to Cody at the Tokyo Dome but I also don't see him holding the ROH World Championship.
This is a compelling point, but it's hard to imagine them not rolling into Supercard of Honor with the belt on their biggest draw. They're trying to draw, what, 5,000-7,000 people?

I hope Dalton Castle wins. I think it would result in better World Title matches and more fresh matchups. But it's also easy to see why they wouldn't want to make a change when they're doing their best business ever.

I hope they don't hot potato the title around like they did around this season last year. I don't want to see Dalton have a short reign only to drop it back to Cody. If he wins, it needs to stick.
Let's remember here that Tanahashi and Omega (and more than likely the other NJPW big four) are booked for SCOH. With the amount of true blue wrestling fans that will be in NOLA that weekend ROH will have a number that matches or exceeds this last SCOH.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

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famicommander wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:26 pm I think if Cody loses they're going to build him back up, so Martinez or Briscoe may not be the place they go first. Maybe a guy like Kenny King or Gresham could work a short program with Cody going over.
I was referring to Dalton, if he loses at Final Battle. (I'm staring daggers into my original, above, pronoun too.) Cody'll be fine if he loses the belt. He's got a posse to team with, so even if he doesn't have a direction, he at least has a place to fall back on.

In contrast, Dalton really doesn't, his posse are the Boys. There's so much noise around Cody that it doesn't make sense to take the title off him, even if somehow that was in their designs. I'm trying to imagine where Dalton goes next, and Jay Briscoe or Punishment Martinez feud could keep him relevant.
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Re: The Dalton Castle-Watch Thread

Post by famicommander »

Ah, I see. I am assuming Silas Young wins the TV title and they probably won't go back to Castle vs Silas, so Punishment makes sense. I feel like the Briscoes are going to be chasing the tag belts for a little while.

Maybe a program with Adam Page could work for Castle.
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