FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

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famicommander
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by famicommander »

Big Red Machine wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:31 pm
famicommander wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:54 am
Big Red Machine wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:08 pm

What makes you think they're free?
Because I was able to watch them and I don't even have a Floslam account, much less an active subscription.
Maybe it's something with my Flashplayer. It's been finicky at times, and I actually do have a FloSlam account.
I've found that the direct links they have on the page sometimes don't work, but if you click on one and the click another video from the little sub menu on the right, it will work, and then you can find your way back to whatever you were watching the same way.
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Wilson
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Wilson »

Big Red Machine wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:32 pm
Wilson wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:28 pm Apparently, the leaker is, to my knowledge, a totally outside party--Chip Day, a southeast indie worker.

Timeline, as recalled by Big Stoke: https://twitter.com/StokelyHathaway/sta ... 8235549696
I'm pretty sure he's worked for WWN before. Maybe in a Style Battle or an FIP?
You're right. Cagematch says he worked Style Battle, FIP, and some WWN-affiliated promotion called ACW.

What a weird-ass week it's been.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by DXvsNWO1994 »

There was a great segment on the VOW Flagship Podcast this week going over the EVOLVE leaks (I believe the EVOLVE talk starts with about fifty minutes left in the show):

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2017/0 ... -no-mercy/

This whole EVOLVE/FloSlam/Gabe email leak story has to be one of the craziest stories of 2017.
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ROHfan2002
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

After listening to the Everything Evolves podcast, it really seems like Flosport had no clue what they were doing. Also I can't find too much fault with WWN here. Maybe they did lie. about the numbers, but we have to be honest. If you are running a small company that struggles, and some investors show up with millions of dollars, and you know that the investor business will fail sooner rather than later, why not get some cash now? WWN has many properties, but the cash flow in wasn't huge. I find the big money investors more at fault for not doing their proper duties and research before signing a big money contract.

AS for Gabe threatening to fire random people, that was mostly just him being pissed off and too stuck in the moment. He wasn't thinking straight, and I highly doubt he was serious. He just wanted to lash out at vOW and get the info, hoping a hollow threat would do it. I cannot believe he was truly serious about firing random workers. We've all gotten really pissed off and ran our mouths when we shouldn't have.

An ugly situtaiton yes. But I don't feel dirty to still support Evolve Wrestling as long as they deliver in the ring.
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AlexROH
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by AlexROH »

ROHfan2002 wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:54 am Also I can't find too much fault with WWN here. Maybe they did lie. about the numbers, but we have to be honest. If you are running a small company that struggles, and some investors show up with millions of dollars, and you know that the investor business will fail sooner rather than later, why not get some cash now?
Wait... What?? You are saying that falsifying your numbers in order to get money from a company, something that it's totally ilegal and inmoral, isn't bad? Man. I know that maybe WWN had money problems, but lie to somebody only for getting money, and we are not talking about 500$, we are talking about 3 millons dollars!! It's normal that Flo believes in a company they are signing a contract with.

About Gabe. He has always being a dick. He ended Kaasas career bc he didn't want to buy a better ring. He almost lost his champ, Thatcher, for making him killed himself in that stupid match with Gulak. And now he blame everyone for leaking that stupid e-mail. I'm not saying I'm happy with this, but I like how people are realizing that Gabe is a dick. He's a good booker, but as a promoter and a business person? He's bad and stupid in some ways.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by famicommander »

ROHfan2002 wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:54 am After listening to the Everything Evolves podcast, it really seems like Flosport had no clue what they were doing. Also I can't find too much fault with WWN here. Maybe they did lie. about the numbers, but we have to be honest. If you are running a small company that struggles, and some investors show up with millions of dollars, and you know that the investor business will fail sooner rather than later, why not get some cash now?
Are you insane?

It's okay to steal from people as long as they're incompetent is what you just said.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

It's called being realistic.

1. WWN was either losing money or close to it.
2. Flosports shows up, and within 24 hours of getting this "data" offer 3-5 million bucks for the rights to stream the content.

You saying that if you're dream business was having money flow issues, and somebody shows up offering way more than you are worth, you wouldn't take it? Seriously?

3. Floslam was not a wise business move. You know it. I know it. WWN knew it. It was not going to last. Chances of WWN getting all of the money in that contract before Floslam folded was very unlikely.

If an idiot group shows up with millions to throw at my money challenged dream business, I might stretch the truth to get some much needed investment, knowing that if I don't do it, somebody else gladly will.

4. Floslam was dumb enough to get these numbers, believe them, and make a million dollars offer within 24 hours.

If an incompetent individual wants to give me all the money they have at their own peril, I would not do it. IF a corporation shows up, buys some bullshit numbers, and still wants to toss millions at me, I might.

5. If this was WWE coming up to get content for WWE Network, do you really think WWN would have fudged the numbers? WWE knows the biz. They can see the small crowds and figure out that 5,000 buys is a lie. They would have told WWN to fuck off.

6. In this case, Floslam had failed to get PWG, ROH, and New Japan. They were desperate to get something, anything. WWN took advantage of the marks, knowing they'd only get some of the money in the contract, but also knowing that if Flosports is dumb enough to believe bullshit, maybe they deserve to get screwed.

WWN is the carny wrestling promotion, literally, and Flosports were the marks.

Promoters, for time eternal, have taken advantage of marks.

So, looking at everything I've laid out here, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE ALONE, I don't find too much fault with WWN. They didn't lie to get money from a children's orphanage or a charity. They lied to get money from a rich corporation too stupid to take the time to research IF THOSE NUMBERS WERE TRUE.

Flosports are the equivalent of the idiots who lose money to Nigerian scams because they don't do the research before giving up the cash. Give up your moolah without proper vetting? Sorry, but I don't feel bad for you.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

ROHfan2002 wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:54 am Also I can't find too much fault with WWN here. Maybe they did lie. about the numbers, but we have to be honest. If you are running a small company that struggles, and some investors show up with millions of dollars, and you know that the investor business will fail sooner rather than later, why not get some cash now?
Because that's fraud and it's morally wrong?
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:56 am

About Gabe. He has always being a dick. He ended Kaasas career bc he didn't want to buy a better ring. He almost lost his champ, Thatcher, for making him killed himself in that stupid match with Gulak. And now he blame everyone for leaking that stupid e-mail. I'm not saying I'm happy with this, but I like how people are realizing that Gabe is a dick. He's a good booker, but as a promoter and a business person? He's bad and stupid in some ways.
You want to criticize him for the Kaasa thing then fine, but please don't tell me he "made" Thatcher go do anything. I do not for one second believe that Gabe told them to do a bunch of suplexes onto the wooden beams under the ring. In fact, Gabe is probably the booker/promoter I have seen who seems to be the most concerned for the health of his talent. How many other bookers, after a match like the first Ladder War with how awesome it was and all of the buzz it got, would have refused to ever book another one because they were worried that the talent would injure themselves trying to top it? And he said the same thing after the Thatcher/Gulak match.
ROHfan2002
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

Big Red Machine wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:35 pm
ROHfan2002 wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:54 am Also I can't find too much fault with WWN here. Maybe they did lie. about the numbers, but we have to be honest. If you are running a small company that struggles, and some investors show up with millions of dollars, and you know that the investor business will fail sooner rather than later, why not get some cash now?
Because that's fraud and it's morally wrong?
Gimme a break. Flosports is the business with the money. They need to do their due diligence and spend their money much wiser. I'm not saying WWN should have lied about the numbers, but I don't find fault because Flosports should have done a half assed job or better in researching it.

We all laugh at the 5000 iPPV buys per show right now. We all know it was off. None of us would have ofered millions for WWN content based on those numbers because we know they are just wrong.

Should not Flosports, a corporation, be better at spending their millions then some guys on a message board?

Ever hear of "let the buyer beware"?

I don't find fault because WWN's goal was to get money to survive. I find the fault with the company that saw obviously false numbers, and 24 hours later handed out millions of dollars.

To put it yet another way, in negotiations, you always start out asking for more than you actually want, because you know the deal will get hashed out and you'll have to lose some things. Ask for more, and hope you get exactly what you want.

WWN asked for more, in a sense, and Flosports said "Here, take even more than that.".

A sucker is born every minute. IN the world of business, I find fault with those who hand out their money without actually doing the research.

Don't sit here and try to tell me that WWN should have said "We need investment, but this is all we are worth, so you should just take your millions elsewhere." Sorry cupcakes, but that fairy tale vision of life doesn't cut it in a corporate America. Flosports should have done more and known better.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by The Dragon Saga »

Well, looks like we found Gabe's alternate account from that other one he made years ago to try and correct us when we said he and EVOLVE sucked.

Hilarious reads nonetheless, it doesn't change the fact that it has taken this for EVOLVE to probably be discussed in wider circles now than I have seen it previously. Not even their relationship with WWE has garnered them this much press. Sadly for them it's more reminiscent of "LOLTNA" than it is positive discussion.
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Big Red Machine
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

ROHfan2002 wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:23 am
Big Red Machine wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:35 pm
ROHfan2002 wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:54 am Also I can't find too much fault with WWN here. Maybe they did lie. about the numbers, but we have to be honest. If you are running a small company that struggles, and some investors show up with millions of dollars, and you know that the investor business will fail sooner rather than later, why not get some cash now?
Because that's fraud and it's morally wrong?
Gimme a break. Flosports is the business with the money. They need to do their due diligence and spend their money much wiser. I'm not saying WWN should have lied about the numbers, but I don't find fault because Flosports should have done a half assed job or better in researching it.

We all laugh at the 5000 iPPV buys per show right now. We all know it was off. None of us would have ofered millions for WWN content based on those numbers because we know they are just wrong.

Should not Flosports, a corporation, be better at spending their millions then some guys on a message board?

Ever hear of "let the buyer beware"?

I don't find fault because WWN's goal was to get money to survive. I find the fault with the company that saw obviously false numbers, and 24 hours later handed out millions of dollars.

To put it yet another way, in negotiations, you always start out asking for more than you actually want, because you know the deal will get hashed out and you'll have to lose some things. Ask for more, and hope you get exactly what you want.

WWN asked for more, in a sense, and Flosports said "Here, take even more than that.".

A sucker is born every minute. IN the world of business, I find fault with those who hand out their money without actually doing the research.

Don't sit here and try to tell me that WWN should have said "We need investment, but this is all we are worth, so you should just take your millions elsewhere." Sorry cupcakes, but that fairy tale vision of life doesn't cut it in a corporate America. Flosports should have done more and known better.
What we're all saying is that they shouldn't have lied because fraud is wrong. Whether or not FloSlam was too dumb to do their due diligence is completely irrelevant to the morality of WWN's actions (assuming that these accusations do turn out to be true).
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

The Dragon Saga wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:18 am Well, looks like we found Gabe's alternate account from that other one he made years ago to try and correct us when we said he and EVOLVE sucked.

Hilarious reads nonetheless, it doesn't change the fact that it has taken this for EVOLVE to probably be discussed in wider circles now than I have seen it previously. Not even their relationship with WWE has garnered them this much press. Sadly for them it's more reminiscent of "LOLTNA" than it is positive discussion.

One thing I can guarantee is that I am not a fake Gabe account. Outside of shaking his hand at the two Evolve shows in IL this year, I've never even met him.

I just think the fault here lies with the corporation handing out money without doing the due process, not the small wrestling company barely scraping by.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

What we're all saying is that they shouldn't have lied because fraud is wrong. Whether or not FloSlam was too dumb to do their due diligence is completely irrelevant to the morality of WWN's actions (assuming that these accusations do turn out to be true).

If you put huge emphasis on morality in the business world, than you would find fault with WWN. I see a business world where corporations will screw over any little business they can, whenever they can, and think that the little guy getting one over on the money people is OK in this instance. Different views are okay.

I should also note that, as you wrote, these are still just accusations. 5,000 iPPV buys seems laughable for Evolve. But i could see 5,000 total buys of titles if you combine iPPV, VOD, and DVD/Blu Ray sales. Maybe WWN combined them all not as a way to commit fraud, but to give a more accurate view of how many purchases their events get per title. When Flosports asked for numbers, it is possible that WWN thought TOTAL purchases was a better, more accurate look into their business when trying to sell Flosports on a deal.

Is that still fraud? I don't think so.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

ROHfan2002 wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:18 am What we're all saying is that they shouldn't have lied because fraud is wrong. Whether or not FloSlam was too dumb to do their due diligence is completely irrelevant to the morality of WWN's actions (assuming that these accusations do turn out to be true).

If you put huge emphasis on morality in the business world, than you would find fault with WWN. I see a business world where corporations will screw over any little business they can, whenever they can, and think that the little guy getting one over on the money people is OK in this instance. Different views are okay.

I should also note that, as you wrote, these are still just accusations. 5,000 iPPV buys seems laughable for Evolve. But i could see 5,000 total buys of titles if you combine iPPV, VOD, and DVD/Blu Ray sales. Maybe WWN combined them all not as a way to commit fraud, but to give a more accurate view of how many purchases their events get per title. When Flosports asked for numbers, it is possible that WWN thought TOTAL purchases was a better, more accurate look into their business when trying to sell Flosports on a deal.

Is that still fraud? I don't think so.
So what you're saying is that because someone else with a lot of money screwed over someone else with less money then it is okay for this completely different company with less money to screw over this completely different company with a lot of money? So if a rich person in Montana murders a poor person in Montana, do you think it's justified for a poor person in Alabama to kill a rich person in Alabama?

If the number of iPPV buys, VOD buys, and DVD/Blu-Ray buys if around 5,000 then I think it is a much grayer area (though they should have told Flo-Slam that this is what that number is.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Wilson »

ROHfan2002 wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:18 am I should also note that, as you wrote, these are still just accusations. 5,000 iPPV buys seems laughable for Evolve. But i could see 5,000 total buys of titles if you combine iPPV, VOD, and DVD/Blu Ray sales. Maybe WWN combined them all not as a way to commit fraud, but to give a more accurate view of how many purchases their events get per title. When Flosports asked for numbers, it is possible that WWN thought TOTAL purchases was a better, more accurate look into their business when trying to sell Flosports on a deal.
Important detail to note is that WWN has not been able to provide any record that would support any case to their original sell-through data. Which is fishy because payment services are almost done by a third party (think Paypal) for online goods, who would no doubt have their records.
ROHfan2002 wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:18 am I see a business world where corporations will screw over any little business they can, whenever they can, and think that the little guy getting one over on the money people is OK in this instance. Different views are okay.
Credentializing the use of fraud as a type of means and methods only weakens the health of business as a whole. Whataboutism is a logical fallacy to reinforce intentionally harmful actions. Your argument leads into legal precedent which should be approached as judiciously as possible.

It's cut-and-dry that the alleged doings by WWN can't be supported. There's no "hearing from both sides" in this case.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by supersonic »

ITT: only TDS having the appropriate response, which is to LOL at these irrelevant little low-budget clusterfucks.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

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This might be an implication of what's to come. EVOLVE and Gabe probably realize, they won't come out on top in a lawsuit against Flo. They will have to pay up. They can't afford to pay up. If they fold and file chapter two (someone can correct me on which the correct type is where you file due to impending issues) bankruptcy, so Gabe won't need to lose essentially his entire living.

The wrestlers get a clean break and we have a whole host of free agents readily available for use in promotions like ROH. I would hope if this does come to fruition, ROH look at Matt Riddle. He is to me the only person EVOLVE has that is worth much. Keith Lee would be another but after comments hes made about ROH I would doubt he'd be a realistic option.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by AlexROH »

I think the video EVOLVE posted last night was more of a teaser for a reboot. They aren't going out of business.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:23 am I think the video EVOLVE posted last night was more of a teaser for a reboot. They aren't going out of business.
Gabe's e-mail seemed to hint at this as well.
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