FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

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famicommander
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by famicommander »

I don't think the NWA is interesting in the least bit right now. They have a 50-something indie journeyman as champion and they're mostly piggybacking off CWFH shows with ~250 fans who didn't even pay to get in.

Besides, Corgan is a nutbag who believes in shapeshifters and claims that the condensation created by jet engines is the government dumping poisonous chemicals on the public.

And he came up with the Impact Grand Championship, which is one of the dumbest championships I can ever recall.

At least Evolve has their own roster and shows.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by dhads7161 »

EVOLVE's biggest show(s) of the year are WM weekend...this just shows that there is only interest in their product if they're able to piggyback off the E. Yeah, ROH does it but they also don't need WrestleMania weekend to draw 1000+.
Big Red Machine
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:41 am
Big Red Machine wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:29 pm
The Dragon Saga wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:09 pm Actually, I wouldn't be at all shocked if less than 500 people were buying EVOLVE shows, yeah.

I can't remember the show, but I do remember once watching an EVOLVE show on Taima.tv when I was sick and there was a measily 120 or so people in the chat watching it too. That was some time in early 2016 I think.

I've already expressed my views on EVOLVE above, but at the end of the day, what does it matter? They had their five seconds, it blew up in their face, Gabe is back to hustling to keep it alive. I would say that right now NWA is more relevant in the grand scheme of pro-wrestling than EVOLVE is, and I wouldn't have been able to say that with a straight face even three months ago.
120 people in the chat is seems like a very good number, as it seems to me that post people buying a show aren't trying to do internet chat during it.
The number that Taima show isn't the number of people chatting, is the total of people watching the show in that moment.

And talking about EVOLVE, I don't what happend in the second half of the year, but now I have 0 interest in watching the product. I used to enjoy the show, but crowds really suck. There are some very good wrestlers like Lee or Yehi, but EVOLVE has, again, failed. They always have a short period of time where people talk about them but then Gabe proved why he's an awful promoter. Their product hasn't improved or changed in months. And having always Lee and Riddle in the big match spot doesn't help too. They're both great wrestlers, but the fact that they wreste everywhere and, now with streaming services, people can watch every promotion, their matches in EVOLVE doesn't feel special anymore. That's why the super indy concept doesn't work as well as it used to work back in the DVD era. You have to offer a different roster or more diverse, just like AAW or even Glory Pro.

In all these years, Gabe hasn't been able to create a loyal fanbase and only La Boom has some big match feel, and that's because NYC has a wrestling fanbse in general. NWA, as Dragon Sage said, looks more interesting righ now. Corgan has a good mind. Maybe everything evolves... except for EVOLVE or EVOLVE really isn't for everybody haha.
I'm not saying EVOLVE hasn't been less interesting since August but the claim that the NWA is more interesting or relevant is ridiculous, and the idea that Billy Corgan has a good mind more wrestling is even sillier. Just look at all the dumb crap in his run in TNA. We're talking about the creator of the TNA Stupid Rules Championship. The fact that he thought a belt whose gimmick is that we chop the matches up into three three-minute rounds so that it can't ever get going and throw in a vote by the judges- every combat sports fan's least favorite finish- as the likely outcome shows that he has absolutely no idea what he's doing.
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supersonic
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by supersonic »

SPYWARE/POP-UP WARNING - https://www.pwinsider.com/article/11397 ... -.html?p=1

Johnson:
Although this was expected as soon as Flosports filed their amended lawsuit against WWNLive, WWN's attempts to have the lawsuit thrown out were rejected by the court on 11/30. They will be able to argue their points again, once they specifically respond to the amended version of the suit. WWN is expected to file a counter-suit.

Interesting to note that despite being shut down, the Floslam website has not been updated to reflect that the service is done. In a podcast he recorded after being let go by the service, writer Brent Brookhouse admitted that he had tried in vain to get management to drop the price point of the service and attempted to find other promotions for the service to work with after they cut ties with WWNLive, but management would never sign off on anything. Brookhouse admitted that after the WWN lawsuit was filed by Flosports, there was nothing, from a fan's perspective, that he would have wanted to subscribe to the service for, gave management options to fix things and basically was hired to do one job and trapped doing another.

In a story that completely infuriated me listening to the podcast, Brookhouse stated that he was preparing to drive three hours to EVOLVE's events to cover them for the service when he began getting messages from fans asking about the lawsuit Flosports had filed days before - so the service didn't even inform their point person in charge of creating content for the service about the lawsuit before it broke publicly. That basically meant Flosports would have been putting Brookhouse into a position to drive three hours and then walk into a show where he would have been seen as the "enemy" from the company that was now suing WWNLive, without any knowledge of the situation. In the end, Brookhouse was told not to attend the shows (as Flosports decided to pull EVOLVE's live streams hours before they went on the air) but the fact that no one thought to inform him privately is WCW-level ridiculousness.

What really, truly angered me, was hearing Brookhouse recount that he learned the platform was shut down when people began contacting after hearing the reports via Twitter. So, the guy (who has one young child and another baby on the way) found out he was fired from a job that sought him out from social media, well before he was able to actually get someone from the actual company to give him the respect of telling him what was going on. Actually, that sounds worse than even the worst WCW stupidity, but what should I expect from a company that responded to an email from me asking what they intended to do to replace WWNLive content so people didn't cancel their subs by actually CANCELING MY SUBSCRIPTION instead of responding to the question.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by The Dragon Saga »

Big Red Machine wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:04 am
AlexROH wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:41 am
Big Red Machine wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:29 pm

120 people in the chat is seems like a very good number, as it seems to me that post people buying a show aren't trying to do internet chat during it.
The number that Taima show isn't the number of people chatting, is the total of people watching the show in that moment.

And talking about EVOLVE, I don't what happend in the second half of the year, but now I have 0 interest in watching the product. I used to enjoy the show, but crowds really suck. There are some very good wrestlers like Lee or Yehi, but EVOLVE has, again, failed. They always have a short period of time where people talk about them but then Gabe proved why he's an awful promoter. Their product hasn't improved or changed in months. And having always Lee and Riddle in the big match spot doesn't help too. They're both great wrestlers, but the fact that they wreste everywhere and, now with streaming services, people can watch every promotion, their matches in EVOLVE doesn't feel special anymore. That's why the super indy concept doesn't work as well as it used to work back in the DVD era. You have to offer a different roster or more diverse, just like AAW or even Glory Pro.

In all these years, Gabe hasn't been able to create a loyal fanbase and only La Boom has some big match feel, and that's because NYC has a wrestling fanbse in general. NWA, as Dragon Sage said, looks more interesting righ now. Corgan has a good mind. Maybe everything evolves... except for EVOLVE or EVOLVE really isn't for everybody haha.
I'm not saying EVOLVE hasn't been less interesting since August but the claim that the NWA is more interesting or relevant is ridiculous, and the idea that Billy Corgan has a good mind more wrestling is even sillier. Just look at all the dumb crap in his run in TNA. We're talking about the creator of the TNA Stupid Rules Championship. The fact that he thought a belt whose gimmick is that we chop the matches up into three three-minute rounds so that it can't ever get going and throw in a vote by the judges- every combat sports fan's least favorite finish- as the likely outcome shows that he has absolutely no idea what he's doing.
That's what YOU think. What YOU think has nothing to do with reality.

NWA like it or not has people actually interested in what's going on. Their actually getting their name out there and presenting their product in a different manner through promotional videos and free access through social media.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSHCTJ ... T6g/videos

Over 100,000 views in just over four weeks right there. That's a thing called "marketing".

EVOLVE can market two things a) former MMA talent who has natural talent and charisma, not too hard and b) grapplefuck, that not a single person gives a fuck about anymore because we're not all stuck back in 2006 when that shit was somewhat cool.

So, I'll reiterate my fact - because forget point, I'll state it as a fact - despite its relative relevance compared to many others, the NWA right now in this present moment and time has more relevance and eyes on it than EVOLVE does. Not that that's saying much.
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famicommander
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by famicommander »

Until the NWA actually runs its own show, they're not more relevant than Evolve. They're Jeff Jarrett's original GFW, a promotion that exists on paper. They have a belt and a name and nothing else.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

famicommander wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 pm Until the NWA actually runs its own show, they're not more relevant than Evolve. They're Jeff Jarrett's original GFW, a promotion that exists on paper. They have a belt and a name and nothing else.
This. Dragon Saga, the fact that you would call a "promotion" that has done nothing but put out a series out YouTube videos more relevant than a promotion that runs actual shows with guys who are considered to be major names in indy wrestling- many of whom made their names as stars in EVOLVE- shows your bias.


And it's the same "belt and a name" that has been all they've had since 1993, with the brief exception of the TNA years, and even then it quickly became clear that it was TNA that was putting spotlight on the NWA and not the other way around. The is completely irrelevant. How many "NWA" wrestlers can you name? Tim Storm and Jax Dane (is he still with them?) and... who else is there? And then ask yourself how many of them you would have ever heard of if New Japan hadn't decided to waste time on their shows Bruce Tharpe's crew?
ROHfan2002
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

Dragon Saga, I hope you are trolling. If not, please remember that YOUR opinion is not fact. Yes, the NWA has a lot of Youtube views. I have even viewed a video or two out of curiosity. But they are nowhere close to the word relevant. The only real show that NWA belt is showing up on is the Hollywood wrestling program in the Youtube videos. But from what I've read, the tickets into the tapings are all comps.

Plus, watching a free video on Youtube does not make you more relevant than a company that gets a thousand to two thousand people PAYING for Evolve iPPV shows. Plus a few hundred people PAYING to attend live events twice a month.

Another factor on relevance: Right now, in this industry, the biggest company is WWE. The biggest audiences are WWE audiences. Evolve and WWN currently have a nice article up on WWE.com hyping up their next double shot weekend. WWE is comfortable enough with the Evolve product to send talent there (Alexander in September, Regal this weekend). WWE views Evolve as relevant enough to scout their talent, and hire many of their names for 205 Live, Cruiserweight Classic, and NXT.

In the grand scheme of America, no wrestling company has relevance beyond WWE. Without the pro wrestling audience in America, Evolve and the new NWA are both largely irrelevant. BUT if you are comparing them to each other to determine which has more relevance, Evolve is far more relevant to the current pro wrestling scene. Relationship with WWE. Talent signed to WWE. Mentions on WWE website. Selling actual tickets to live events. Selling iPPV's to paying customers. Seems far more relevant then 100,000 views on Youtube, and a "world" champion who is only a part time wrestler.

Ignoring these simple facts seems more YOU think the NWA is more relevant, but have nothing beyond some free Youtube views.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

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EVOLVE doesn't have a relationship with WWE, it just a thing between Gabe and WWE. He tries to make it look like a big deal, and thinks that bringing Regal would help. Reality is that the attendance is bad so this deal only benefits WWE bc they hire people from EVOLVE. You know they dont have any kind of deal when WWE hire a lot of EVOLVE talent and annouced tours for The 205 brand.

I would't say NWA is more relevant, but the NWA title is a story that has catched me more than anything EVOLVE has made in the last 6 months. In some years, I can see NWA a good little thing in the indies, it's something fresh.

And to be fair, EVOLVE has one of the lowest attendance numbers on the indies. I see this as a failure knowing al the talent that they have. NWA hasnt got a show yet, but people are interested and hyped to see what's next.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by The Dragon Saga »

AlexROH wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:45 am

I would't say NWA is more relevant, but the NWA title is a story that has catched me more than anything EVOLVE has made in the last 6 months. In some years, I can see NWA a good little thing in the indies, it's something fresh.
Instead of responding with another detailed piece, this is all I need to quote to reiterate the point I am making.

And the fact that the NWA hasn't held a standalone show yet is in this position is a startling statement of how poorly ran and viewed EVOLVE currently is. It is to indie wrestling as Impact is to the large promotions.
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Big Red Machine
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Big Red Machine »

The Dragon Saga wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:41 am
AlexROH wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:45 am

I would't say NWA is more relevant, but the NWA title is a story that has catched me more than anything EVOLVE has made in the last 6 months. In some years, I can see NWA a good little thing in the indies, it's something fresh.
Instead of responding with another detailed piece, this is all I need to quote to reiterate the point I am making.

And the fact that the NWA hasn't held a standalone show yet is in this position is a startling statement of how poorly ran and viewed EVOLVE currently is. It is to indie wrestling as Impact is to the large promotions.
All that means is that the NWA hasn't had to do the hard part yet. They haven't had to try to convert the people clicking on a free YouTube video into people willing to pay to see the show. Tons of sh*t gets hundreds of thousands of YouTube clicks, even without a big celebrity like Corgan behind it. Come back to me when they actually run a show.

I also love your touting someone saying that the he can see the NWA becoming "a good little thing" on the indies, a few years from now, and that the one story the NWA has has interested him more than anything EVOLVE has done in the past six months. Almost no one is saying that EVOLVE isn't in a creative down-period at the moment. Gabe recognizes that, two. Going all the way back to September he was publicly saying that these next few shows are going to be a transition. The NWA putting all of their effort into just one thing being better than EVOLVE trying to re-shuffle a whole bunch of things at once is a pretty low threshold for victory. It's like beating a team when most of their top players are injured and they've had to play a whole bunch of games while you only had this one game against them to prepare for and have been preparing specifically to combat their style of play for months.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by famicommander »

The Dragon Saga wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:41 am
AlexROH wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:45 am

I would't say NWA is more relevant, but the NWA title is a story that has catched me more than anything EVOLVE has made in the last 6 months. In some years, I can see NWA a good little thing in the indies, it's something fresh.
Instead of responding with another detailed piece, this is all I need to quote to reiterate the point I am making.

And the fact that the NWA hasn't held a standalone show yet is in this position is a startling statement of how poorly ran and viewed EVOLVE currently is. It is to indie wrestling as Impact is to the large promotions.
And exactly what "position" is the NWA in?

Leeching off low level indies that don't even charge for tickets just to put on a single match?
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

AlexROH wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:45 am EVOLVE doesn't have a relationship with WWE, it just a thing between Gabe and WWE. He tries to make it look like a big deal, and thinks that bringing Regal would help. Reality is that the attendance is bad so this deal only benefits WWE bc they hire people from EVOLVE. You know they dont have any kind of deal when WWE hire a lot of EVOLVE talent and annouced tours for The 205 brand.

I would't say NWA is more relevant, but the NWA title is a story that has catched me more than anything EVOLVE has made in the last 6 months. In some years, I can see NWA a good little thing in the indies, it's something fresh.

And to be fair, EVOLVE has one of the lowest attendance numbers on the indies. I see this as a failure knowing al the talent that they have. NWA hasnt got a show yet, but people are interested and hyped to see what's next.

I would call allowing Cedric Alexander to work two shows a relationship. I would call sending William Regal to scout talent and participate in the seminar a relationship. I would call openly hyping Evolve shows and Regal's appearance at them on the WWE website to be a relationship. Dude, facts do matter. How can you look at all that and say that EVolve "doesn't have a relationship with WWE". I didn't say they were partners, I didn't say they co-promoted. I said Relationship. Clearly, that is true.

Attendance is bad is also your opinion. For an independent company, Evolve attendance is low but I wouldn't say bad. I was at both Chicago shows this year. Good crowds for an indy new to the region. Crowds in Detroit area look good. MCW arena crowds are quiet, but looks pretty full to me. The crowds at the New York show in August was good. Evolve has small crowds, but I would take 200 paying fans over no paying fans a Hollywood NWA TV taping.

You wrote "I wouldn't say NWA is more relevant" which is exactly what I argued, so we do agree here. The rest of that paragraph is just your opinion and doesn't matter on the relevancy question. I found the NWA title stuff dull at best, and couldn't bother with the time to watch the title match Youtube set up. To me, what Evolve is going to set up this weekend for the "chapter three reboot" is interesting. What new talent will emerge is interesting. Tim Storm a journeyman wrestler defending a belt that hasn't meant anything in the wrestling industry since before Shane Douglas threw it away over 23 years ago against Magnus, who didn't impress back when TNA pushed him to the moon doesn't interest me. Where do you get the belief that people are interested in the NWA? Maybe a buzz is out there, but where? Free views on Youtube means nothing.

As far as stating Evolve has one of the lower attendances in the indies may be true, but do you have some actual proof of that statement? I don't have any numbers for indy companies to compare it to. If you do, I'd love to see them. Otherwise, saying it has one of the lower attendances is just conjecture.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by ROHfan2002 »

The Dragon Saga wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:41 am
AlexROH wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:45 am

I would't say NWA is more relevant, but the NWA title is a story that has catched me more than anything EVOLVE has made in the last 6 months. In some years, I can see NWA a good little thing in the indies, it's something fresh.
Instead of responding with another detailed piece, this is all I need to quote to reiterate the point I am making.

And the fact that the NWA hasn't held a standalone show yet is in this position is a startling statement of how poorly ran and viewed EVOLVE currently is. It is to indie wrestling as Impact is to the large promotions.
The point you are making then is that IN YOUR OPINION the NWA is more relevant than Evolve. Your opinion is not fact. There are many ways to measure relevancy. I provided a few different examples to make a point that the NWA is not more relevant.

You seem to just have something against Evolve. That's cool for you. But if you make an absurd statement, either back it up with some sound reasoning or simply admit you don't like Evolve so NWA is more relevant TO YOU.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Wilson »

Hyperbolic arguments like this does no one any favors.

NWA's recent output has been really engaging--it's an independent angle that's had as much attention poured upon in than any other I can recall. Evolve does some of this well too, if you ask people that are in the weeds of the product. Kenny Johnson now has a credit in both those promotions, so there is at least some genetic link there.

I'll open this back up if there's more news regarding Flo/WWN.
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Re: FloSports Files Lawsuit Against WWN

Post by Wilson »

The saga . . . is over.

From Chris Harrington of Wrestlenomics: "FloSports filed a notice of voluntary dismissal today in FloSports Inc v WWN Inc lawsuit."

https://twitter.com/mookieghana/status/ ... 4493933568
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