Re: Global Wars 2017 Thread
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:58 am
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Suzuki has an excuse, the last NJPW show they did an angle where Yano stole the belt from him.famicommander wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:33 pm Why didn't Kenny Omega have the IWGP US Championship belt? And why didn't Minoru Suzuki have the NEVER Openweight Championship belt?
Ospreay had the IWGP Jr Heavyweight Championship belt, Killer Elite Squad had the IWGP Heavyweight Tag team Championship belts.
It bugs me when champions don't have belts. It's bad enough that NJPW stars only come out with the NEVER Six Man belts every once in awhile, but for a US title match?
Omg, one of the worst shows ever? It's funny to read (again) the complain about Omega's bookings. He do the same in NJPW, that's what he likes, doing trios matches and having fun and just going singles for big matches. Delirious has a lot of problems, but this isn't "his fault", it just how Kenny Omega's appareances work.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am ROH WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: Bullet Club (The Young Bucks & Kenny Omega)(c) vs. Flip Gordon & Best Friends- 2.75/10
The titles are on the line here because apparently the Bucks decided that they wanted to operate under “the Bullet Club Rule,” which is just the Freebird Rule, and ROH management has decided to go along with it. I assure you that this would never have been done had Kenny Omega not been working this tour, and rather than do what people actually wanted to see and book Kenny in some interesting singles matches, Delirious just decided to stick him in a bunch of repetitive six-man tags so they could have these six-man tag titles defended against a bunch of teams that have done absolutely nothing to earn a shot at them, with the defenses not being announced in advance at all so that they sold a grand total of zero extra tickets. Good job there, Delirious. Friendly suggestion: maybe you’d be able to get a bit more oxygen going to your brain if ever took Bully Ray and Gedo’s cocks out of your mouth.
Speaking of not being able to breathe, whoever this ring announcer is, ROH should never use him again. He introduced this match as “a six-man tag team affair.” IT’S CALLED A “MATCH!” A F*CKING “MATCH.” What? Do you think calling it an “affair” makes it sound fancier or makes you sound smarter? If you do, then why don’t you, Mike Tenay, and Matt Striker go asphyxiate each other so that I never have to deal with this idiotic line of thinking ever again? (See. I told you I’d make a connection to not being able to breathe. Don’t ever doubt me.)
The story early on seemed to be that Best Friends were here to take care of business and weren’t doing to put up with any of The Elite’s bullsh*t antics, but then all of a sudden they started engaging in their own antics, totally upending the story they had been telling.
At that point the whole match just started to break down into antics. At one point all of the other members of Bullet Club ran out from the back, got into the ring, and laid down so that one of the Bucks could slam Gordon’s head into all ten of their boots at the same time. This all happened right in front of the referee, but apparently Bullet Club doesn’t give a sh*t if they get disqualified and lose the match, so why should I care either. The other “fans” in the building certainly don’t care because they were all chanting “TEN BOOTS!” They don’t care if their main event title match with Kenny Omega making one of this extremely rare appearances in the US ends in a disqualification; they’ll just be happy that they got to see something silly, because apparently that’s why they buy tickets to wrestling shows.
Making matters worse is the fact that any intelligent person would immediately have realized that the way Bullet Club had to cram themselves all into position to get their feet all together in the corner meant that any attempt to slam Gordon’s face into said booted feet would almost certainly involve Page or Cody getting their face stepped on first, and because there are so many points of contact the impact on Gordon’s head will actually be less than if it was just two boots, but we’ve got to do our silly spot because the H in ROH now apparently stands for “Ha-Ha.”
So Gordon’s head gets slammed into all ten boots and the referee… just stands there and shrugs instead of calling for a disqualification. You know… like how when a basketball player picks up the ball and just runs down the court instead of dribbling, the referee just shrugs instead of calling traveling. And people say that WWE is the promotion that insults the fans’ intelligence?
Now the referee finally orders the interlopers from Bullet Club to go to the back. Too little, too late, dumbass. That boot to the face spot is now the only thing that has happened for the past two minutes. And now they’re back to trying to have a wrestling match with drama. How do they expect me to care about this when they just spent the past few minutes making it into a total farce?
Then they went and had seven straight minutes of totally awesome wrestling, and that’s almost worse than if the match had just continued to suck because all this did was show me how amazing this match could have been if they hadn’t wasted most of it on pointless moronic comedy.
These seven minutes of awesome ended with a big sequence where Chuck Taylor hit the Awful Waffle on Kenny Omega but before the referee could make the three-count the rest of Bullet Club came back out to pull him out of the ring. You’d think that returning to ringside after being ejected would cause their pals to be disqualified, but you’d be wrong. You’d also think that putting your hands on the referee to impede his performance of his duties would cause a disqualification, but you’d be wrong again.
The fans are chanting “WELCOME BACK!” at these heels interfering in a match and screwing a popular babyface out of pinning a huge star and winning some titles because they’re not actually wrestling fans; they’re Bullet Club marks, and will cheer for anything involving Bullet Club. If a random stranger ran into the ring and started molesting children, these assholes would cheer it if the child molester had a Bullet Club shirt on.
Gordon did a big dive onto all of Bullet Club to take them out. Chuck and Trent then got a table and tried to chokeslam one of the Bucks off the stage and through it but the other Buck made the save. Then The Elite hit the two of them with three superkicks to send them through the table in a spot that made it absolutely impossible for me to suspend my disbelief. Flip Gordon was then given a brief moment to shine before being given a Meltzer Driver onto the floor, after which he was rolled into the ring and pinned.
This will go down as by far one of the worse main events in Ring of Honor history. The only others that come to mind are Cody vs. Suzuki from Death Before Dishonor XV last month, and before that you’d have to go all the way back to the early days of the promotion with sh*t like the gigantic scramble match from the One Year Anniversary Show or the atrocious main event of Night of the Butcher, where something (my guess would be Kevin Sullivan) possessed Gabe to think it would be a good idea to book Abdullah the Butcher at the ripe old age of sixty-one. While this was probably the best of those matches, it is also the most frustrating because of the glimpse of what this could have been if they had just put on a f*cking wrestling match instead of doing stupid bullsh*t for the LOLz.
This is definitely one of the bottom-tier shows in ROH history. Lethal vs. Hiromu keeps it away from the very bottom, but it’s definitely down there. ROH is lucky that they have been found by this new breed of wrestling… patrons (I won’t even call them “fans”) who don’t actually give a sh*t about wrestling, because otherwise they’d be totally f*cked.
I never said this was as bad as WCW in 2001 or TNA in 2012 (or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016). It wasn't that bad. But based on the rather high levels that ROH has set over the years, I do think this was one of the worst shows ROH has ever produced.AlexROH wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:43 amOmg, one of the worst shows ever? It's funny to read (again) the complain about Omega's bookings. He do the same in NJPW, that's what he likes, doing trios matches and having fun and just going singles for big matches. Delirious has a lot of problems, but this isn't "his fault", it just how Kenny Omega's appareances work.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am ROH WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: Bullet Club (The Young Bucks & Kenny Omega)(c) vs. Flip Gordon & Best Friends- 2.75/10
The titles are on the line here because apparently the Bucks decided that they wanted to operate under “the Bullet Club Rule,” which is just the Freebird Rule, and ROH management has decided to go along with it. I assure you that this would never have been done had Kenny Omega not been working this tour, and rather than do what people actually wanted to see and book Kenny in some interesting singles matches, Delirious just decided to stick him in a bunch of repetitive six-man tags so they could have these six-man tag titles defended against a bunch of teams that have done absolutely nothing to earn a shot at them, with the defenses not being announced in advance at all so that they sold a grand total of zero extra tickets. Good job there, Delirious. Friendly suggestion: maybe you’d be able to get a bit more oxygen going to your brain if ever took Bully Ray and Gedo’s cocks out of your mouth.
Speaking of not being able to breathe, whoever this ring announcer is, ROH should never use him again. He introduced this match as “a six-man tag team affair.” IT’S CALLED A “MATCH!” A F*CKING “MATCH.” What? Do you think calling it an “affair” makes it sound fancier or makes you sound smarter? If you do, then why don’t you, Mike Tenay, and Matt Striker go asphyxiate each other so that I never have to deal with this idiotic line of thinking ever again? (See. I told you I’d make a connection to not being able to breathe. Don’t ever doubt me.)
The story early on seemed to be that Best Friends were here to take care of business and weren’t doing to put up with any of The Elite’s bullsh*t antics, but then all of a sudden they started engaging in their own antics, totally upending the story they had been telling.
At that point the whole match just started to break down into antics. At one point all of the other members of Bullet Club ran out from the back, got into the ring, and laid down so that one of the Bucks could slam Gordon’s head into all ten of their boots at the same time. This all happened right in front of the referee, but apparently Bullet Club doesn’t give a sh*t if they get disqualified and lose the match, so why should I care either. The other “fans” in the building certainly don’t care because they were all chanting “TEN BOOTS!” They don’t care if their main event title match with Kenny Omega making one of this extremely rare appearances in the US ends in a disqualification; they’ll just be happy that they got to see something silly, because apparently that’s why they buy tickets to wrestling shows.
Making matters worse is the fact that any intelligent person would immediately have realized that the way Bullet Club had to cram themselves all into position to get their feet all together in the corner meant that any attempt to slam Gordon’s face into said booted feet would almost certainly involve Page or Cody getting their face stepped on first, and because there are so many points of contact the impact on Gordon’s head will actually be less than if it was just two boots, but we’ve got to do our silly spot because the H in ROH now apparently stands for “Ha-Ha.”
So Gordon’s head gets slammed into all ten boots and the referee… just stands there and shrugs instead of calling for a disqualification. You know… like how when a basketball player picks up the ball and just runs down the court instead of dribbling, the referee just shrugs instead of calling traveling. And people say that WWE is the promotion that insults the fans’ intelligence?
Now the referee finally orders the interlopers from Bullet Club to go to the back. Too little, too late, dumbass. That boot to the face spot is now the only thing that has happened for the past two minutes. And now they’re back to trying to have a wrestling match with drama. How do they expect me to care about this when they just spent the past few minutes making it into a total farce?
Then they went and had seven straight minutes of totally awesome wrestling, and that’s almost worse than if the match had just continued to suck because all this did was show me how amazing this match could have been if they hadn’t wasted most of it on pointless moronic comedy.
These seven minutes of awesome ended with a big sequence where Chuck Taylor hit the Awful Waffle on Kenny Omega but before the referee could make the three-count the rest of Bullet Club came back out to pull him out of the ring. You’d think that returning to ringside after being ejected would cause their pals to be disqualified, but you’d be wrong. You’d also think that putting your hands on the referee to impede his performance of his duties would cause a disqualification, but you’d be wrong again.
The fans are chanting “WELCOME BACK!” at these heels interfering in a match and screwing a popular babyface out of pinning a huge star and winning some titles because they’re not actually wrestling fans; they’re Bullet Club marks, and will cheer for anything involving Bullet Club. If a random stranger ran into the ring and started molesting children, these assholes would cheer it if the child molester had a Bullet Club shirt on.
Gordon did a big dive onto all of Bullet Club to take them out. Chuck and Trent then got a table and tried to chokeslam one of the Bucks off the stage and through it but the other Buck made the save. Then The Elite hit the two of them with three superkicks to send them through the table in a spot that made it absolutely impossible for me to suspend my disbelief. Flip Gordon was then given a brief moment to shine before being given a Meltzer Driver onto the floor, after which he was rolled into the ring and pinned.
This will go down as by far one of the worse main events in Ring of Honor history. The only others that come to mind are Cody vs. Suzuki from Death Before Dishonor XV last month, and before that you’d have to go all the way back to the early days of the promotion with sh*t like the gigantic scramble match from the One Year Anniversary Show or the atrocious main event of Night of the Butcher, where something (my guess would be Kevin Sullivan) possessed Gabe to think it would be a good idea to book Abdullah the Butcher at the ripe old age of sixty-one. While this was probably the best of those matches, it is also the most frustrating because of the glimpse of what this could have been if they had just put on a f*cking wrestling match instead of doing stupid bullsh*t for the LOLz.
This is definitely one of the bottom-tier shows in ROH history. Lethal vs. Hiromu keeps it away from the very bottom, but it’s definitely down there. ROH is lucky that they have been found by this new breed of wrestling… patrons (I won’t even call them “fans”) who don’t actually give a sh*t about wrestling, because otherwise they’d be totally f*cked.
The review of the main event... Idk, if someone hate the BC shit, they'll hate the ME. You know what are you going to see, that's what they do bc people love it. If you don't like a type of match or a certain wrestler or tag team, don't watch it or don't waste your time with it. I don't like Cody's matches, but I don't write long reviews saying he is a disgrace to wrestling every week. Elite, Best Friends and Flip Gordon gave the match everybody was expecting, I understand that you didn't like it, just like I don't like PWG at all, but man, you are calling the worst ME ever to a match that every reviewer I've read has said it was a blast. BC is an amazing experience live, and that's why every time more and more people came to the shows.
Calling this one of the worst shows ROH shows in ROH history is a little too much, IMO. This wasn't TNA from 2012 or WCW from 2001, that was a fun B Show with two great matches and an awesome atmosphere, Maybe this isn't for you, maybe you don't see how ROH has evolved. I'm telling you that you have to like it, but if you hate this so much and are the only person that said this was the best show ever and the worst ME in company's history, I think you should quit watching ROH, which would be a shame bc I love reading your stuff.
I understand your points, but, obvisuly, I do not agree with them. I think the same about Cody. he do thing well to go over as a heel, and his run could be great if people boo him, just like they did with Xavier. But, hey, they love him. He's on the BC, they are like the bucks, are "false heel". Do bad things, but people love them bc are cool. If ROH wanted to grow, thay had to evolve and make more of a TV program. They aren't that super-indy that once were, but now they aren't losing money and they are growing more and more. They are different, but everything is different now. You have lot of indies and NXT, it isn't just ROH anymore. They have contracts, TV and PPVs, everything works in another form.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:37 amI never said this was as bad as WCW in 2001 or TNA in 2012 (or 2013, or 2014, or 2015, or 2016). It wasn't that bad. But based on the rather high levels that ROH has set over the years, I do think this was one of the worst shows ROH has ever produced.AlexROH wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:43 amOmg, one of the worst shows ever? It's funny to read (again) the complain about Omega's bookings. He do the same in NJPW, that's what he likes, doing trios matches and having fun and just going singles for big matches. Delirious has a lot of problems, but this isn't "his fault", it just how Kenny Omega's appareances work.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:24 am ROH WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: Bullet Club (The Young Bucks & Kenny Omega)(c) vs. Flip Gordon & Best Friends- 2.75/10
The titles are on the line here because apparently the Bucks decided that they wanted to operate under “the Bullet Club Rule,” which is just the Freebird Rule, and ROH management has decided to go along with it. I assure you that this would never have been done had Kenny Omega not been working this tour, and rather than do what people actually wanted to see and book Kenny in some interesting singles matches, Delirious just decided to stick him in a bunch of repetitive six-man tags so they could have these six-man tag titles defended against a bunch of teams that have done absolutely nothing to earn a shot at them, with the defenses not being announced in advance at all so that they sold a grand total of zero extra tickets. Good job there, Delirious. Friendly suggestion: maybe you’d be able to get a bit more oxygen going to your brain if ever took Bully Ray and Gedo’s cocks out of your mouth.
Speaking of not being able to breathe, whoever this ring announcer is, ROH should never use him again. He introduced this match as “a six-man tag team affair.” IT’S CALLED A “MATCH!” A F*CKING “MATCH.” What? Do you think calling it an “affair” makes it sound fancier or makes you sound smarter? If you do, then why don’t you, Mike Tenay, and Matt Striker go asphyxiate each other so that I never have to deal with this idiotic line of thinking ever again? (See. I told you I’d make a connection to not being able to breathe. Don’t ever doubt me.)
The story early on seemed to be that Best Friends were here to take care of business and weren’t doing to put up with any of The Elite’s bullsh*t antics, but then all of a sudden they started engaging in their own antics, totally upending the story they had been telling.
At that point the whole match just started to break down into antics. At one point all of the other members of Bullet Club ran out from the back, got into the ring, and laid down so that one of the Bucks could slam Gordon’s head into all ten of their boots at the same time. This all happened right in front of the referee, but apparently Bullet Club doesn’t give a sh*t if they get disqualified and lose the match, so why should I care either. The other “fans” in the building certainly don’t care because they were all chanting “TEN BOOTS!” They don’t care if their main event title match with Kenny Omega making one of this extremely rare appearances in the US ends in a disqualification; they’ll just be happy that they got to see something silly, because apparently that’s why they buy tickets to wrestling shows.
Making matters worse is the fact that any intelligent person would immediately have realized that the way Bullet Club had to cram themselves all into position to get their feet all together in the corner meant that any attempt to slam Gordon’s face into said booted feet would almost certainly involve Page or Cody getting their face stepped on first, and because there are so many points of contact the impact on Gordon’s head will actually be less than if it was just two boots, but we’ve got to do our silly spot because the H in ROH now apparently stands for “Ha-Ha.”
So Gordon’s head gets slammed into all ten boots and the referee… just stands there and shrugs instead of calling for a disqualification. You know… like how when a basketball player picks up the ball and just runs down the court instead of dribbling, the referee just shrugs instead of calling traveling. And people say that WWE is the promotion that insults the fans’ intelligence?
Now the referee finally orders the interlopers from Bullet Club to go to the back. Too little, too late, dumbass. That boot to the face spot is now the only thing that has happened for the past two minutes. And now they’re back to trying to have a wrestling match with drama. How do they expect me to care about this when they just spent the past few minutes making it into a total farce?
Then they went and had seven straight minutes of totally awesome wrestling, and that’s almost worse than if the match had just continued to suck because all this did was show me how amazing this match could have been if they hadn’t wasted most of it on pointless moronic comedy.
These seven minutes of awesome ended with a big sequence where Chuck Taylor hit the Awful Waffle on Kenny Omega but before the referee could make the three-count the rest of Bullet Club came back out to pull him out of the ring. You’d think that returning to ringside after being ejected would cause their pals to be disqualified, but you’d be wrong. You’d also think that putting your hands on the referee to impede his performance of his duties would cause a disqualification, but you’d be wrong again.
The fans are chanting “WELCOME BACK!” at these heels interfering in a match and screwing a popular babyface out of pinning a huge star and winning some titles because they’re not actually wrestling fans; they’re Bullet Club marks, and will cheer for anything involving Bullet Club. If a random stranger ran into the ring and started molesting children, these assholes would cheer it if the child molester had a Bullet Club shirt on.
Gordon did a big dive onto all of Bullet Club to take them out. Chuck and Trent then got a table and tried to chokeslam one of the Bucks off the stage and through it but the other Buck made the save. Then The Elite hit the two of them with three superkicks to send them through the table in a spot that made it absolutely impossible for me to suspend my disbelief. Flip Gordon was then given a brief moment to shine before being given a Meltzer Driver onto the floor, after which he was rolled into the ring and pinned.
This will go down as by far one of the worse main events in Ring of Honor history. The only others that come to mind are Cody vs. Suzuki from Death Before Dishonor XV last month, and before that you’d have to go all the way back to the early days of the promotion with sh*t like the gigantic scramble match from the One Year Anniversary Show or the atrocious main event of Night of the Butcher, where something (my guess would be Kevin Sullivan) possessed Gabe to think it would be a good idea to book Abdullah the Butcher at the ripe old age of sixty-one. While this was probably the best of those matches, it is also the most frustrating because of the glimpse of what this could have been if they had just put on a f*cking wrestling match instead of doing stupid bullsh*t for the LOLz.
This is definitely one of the bottom-tier shows in ROH history. Lethal vs. Hiromu keeps it away from the very bottom, but it’s definitely down there. ROH is lucky that they have been found by this new breed of wrestling… patrons (I won’t even call them “fans”) who don’t actually give a sh*t about wrestling, because otherwise they’d be totally f*cked.
The review of the main event... Idk, if someone hate the BC shit, they'll hate the ME. You know what are you going to see, that's what they do bc people love it. If you don't like a type of match or a certain wrestler or tag team, don't watch it or don't waste your time with it. I don't like Cody's matches, but I don't write long reviews saying he is a disgrace to wrestling every week. Elite, Best Friends and Flip Gordon gave the match everybody was expecting, I understand that you didn't like it, just like I don't like PWG at all, but man, you are calling the worst ME ever to a match that every reviewer I've read has said it was a blast. BC is an amazing experience live, and that's why every time more and more people came to the shows.
Calling this one of the worst shows ROH shows in ROH history is a little too much, IMO. This wasn't TNA from 2012 or WCW from 2001, that was a fun B Show with two great matches and an awesome atmosphere, Maybe this isn't for you, maybe you don't see how ROH has evolved. I'm telling you that you have to like it, but if you hate this so much and are the only person that said this was the best show ever and the worst ME in company's history, I think you should quit watching ROH, which would be a shame bc I love reading your stuff.
It was a complete and total house show with a disappointing main event. Aside from the second match on the card, every single match with a New Japan talent- the guys around whom the show was built- was disappointing, everything that happened with Adam Page seemed designed to make him look like a jobber, well over half of the time in the top three matches was spent on either comedy or stalling, and the only angles in the company right now are this Bully Ray vs. Jay Briscoe feud which didn't feature at all on this show, and The Addiction whining about not being given a title shot, which is literally the same thing they've been doing for sixteen of the last twenty-five months. I'd say that's pretty f*cking bad.
I'm fine with Omega doing trios matches. What I'm not fine with is him wasting them doing comedy. I was expecting [some comedy from the main event. What we got was 80% comedy. I was expecting Cabana to do some comedy, not every single moment he and Marty were in there to be comedy. Over the past six months, Marty Scurll has transformed from a believable person into a cartoon.
Believe it or not, I don't mind comedy in my wrestling. I loved Yano vs. Omega. But that's because everything they did made sense and flowed organically. Everything they did in that match was them trying to win a wrestling match. It's just that things they did happened to be funny.
What we got here (and in a lot of other matches) was guys doing things right in front of the referee that should have obviously been disqualifications, but they did them anyway just for the giggles, and the referee just let it go. Or guys just stopping doing their wrestling match to do comedy, like Best Friends hugging each other but then not letting Gordon in on it (which made Gordon look like a total geek, flopping around every time he missed getting in on the hug).
And the f*cking crowd just eats up anything, no matter how stupid, no matter if it should cause a DQ, no matter if it is completely antithetical to everything the promotion is supposed to stand for. You say that I don't see how ROH has "evolved" and you're right... but I desperately want to, because I don't understand how the promotion- or, perhaps, more specifically, it's paying customers- have come to this. How is it that a heel running in to interfere in a world title match PPV main event to screw over a company legend who had just been turned babyface by the fans in the same building cheering for him, elicits a huge cheer? How did we get from a place where people shat all over Xavier or Jerry Lynn due to the perception that they weren't good enough in the ring to a place where people cheer Cody, despite him putting on far worse matches than anything either of those two ever did?
It just doesn't compute to me that the promotion is being both booked and wrestled in the laziest manner it has ever been, and yet it seems to be drawing bigger crowds than before. And yet, despite selling all of these tickets, it feels less relevant to the wrestling world than it ever has before.
You and Dragon Saga and others keep making this argument, but not one person has ever explained why being on TV and having PPVs and contracts means that the product has to be this poorly-booked mess full of dirty finishes and comedy in every match and the rules being ignored whenever the wrestlers feel like ignoring them, and results of 80% of the matches being totally irrelevant, and guys who aren’t good enough to cut the ROH mustard like Cody, Bully Ray, Vinny Marseglia and Will Ferrara being all over the product. Just because WWE and TNA can’t figure out how to make it work doesn’t mean no one can. There was nothing about the old way of doing things that couldn’t have been easily adjusted for TV without losing the character of the product. Having killer matches and being a major wrestling promotion are no mutually exclusive.AlexROH wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:18 am I understand your points, but, obvisuly, I do not agree with them. I think the same about Cody. he do thing well to go over as a heel, and his run could be great if people boo him, just like they did with Xavier. But, hey, they love him. He's on the BC, they are like the bucks, are "false heel". Do bad things, but people love them bc are cool. If ROH wanted to grow, thay had to evolve and make more of a TV program. They aren't that super-indy that once were, but now they aren't losing money and they are growing more and more. They are different, but everything is different now. You have lot of indies and NXT, it isn't just ROH anymore. They have contracts, TV and PPVs, everything works in another form.
Is the in-ring product worse? Sure it is. But the overall product in very good, IMO. Their TV is strong, they are doing cool PPV and their shows are super strong. They don't have super-high points with MOTYC contenders every single night, but their shows are always fun, strong top to bottom with matches between 3 and 3 and 1/2 stars and they give some 4 stars matches. Crowd are great and make the show easy to watch. For me, it's super entertaining right now to watch a ROH show. They haven't changed, for example. like TNA or WCW did (I'm not saying you said that), they have a television product that it's good. Maybe is "bad" for the old ROH Standars, but you can't live in the golden days. They were f'n awesome, but they aren't and shouldn't come back. That wouldn't work on US national TV. It was cool to be the super-indy company, but now they are number 2 in the US and they are making a lot of money and still, having one of the best products going today. I'd rather have ROH being like this that they being a PWG (cool matches but very very little indy) or a EVOLVE (fucking dead crowds and a product that it's the opposite to wrestling evolution).
Yes, ROH has broken their own attendance records this year, but what were the draws for their big houses?AlexROH wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:18 am
"It it seems to be drawing bigger crowds than before. And yet, despite selling all of these tickets, it feels less relevant to the wrestling world than it ever has before".
This make zero sense. I will say it again. Not being "relevant" or don't having "buzz" on the internet isn't the end of the world. Twitter is a social media that have less active users than Facebook, Instagram or Snapchat, They don't represent the audience at all, just a little group of them. Maybe nobody talks it on your timeline, but ROH has broken records this year for attendance and VOD/PPVs buys, have done the most lucrative tour of his entire history with what many of you called "NJPW B Team nobody was paying a dollar for" and have done shows in USA, Canada, Japan and UK. They have a strong long-term relationship with the second biggest company in the world and their fanbase is growing, despite you don't like them, how in hell can you tell me that they are less relevant to the wrestling world than it ever has before? Yeah, bc, it's better to have killer matches with Cary Silkin losing money every week that having weaker matches, and still a solid product, and being the second company in the US.
- We start this conversation talking about the BC. The fuck finishes and interferences are part of their thing. Maybe I don't like it, but, again, people love this and pay to watch it. It makes sense that they want to do it.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:42 pm You and Dragon Saga and others keep making this argument, but not one person has ever explained why being on TV and having PPVs and contracts means that the product has to be this poorly-booked mess full of dirty finishes and comedy in every match and the rules being ignored whenever the wrestlers feel like ignoring them, and results of 80% of the matches being totally irrelevant, and guys who aren’t good enough to cut the ROH mustard like Cody, Bully Ray, Vinny Marseglia and Will Ferrara being all over the product. Just because WWE and TNA can’t figure out how to make it work doesn’t mean no one can. There was nothing about the old way of doing things that couldn’t have been easily adjusted for TV without losing the character of the product. Having killer matches and being a major wrestling promotion are no mutually exclusive.
I’ve said it a million times:
- Cut down the roster so that you’re not paying people who just take up space or aren’t good enough for ROH
- Focus on stories where the results of the matches are important so that the non-PPV /iPPV shows can be used to reinforce those stories (for example, if Cabana is turning on Dalton because he thinks Dalton’s non-serious attitude is holding him back, on the first taping you have them lose with Dalton getting pinned and then later have Colt say something to Dalton about it, then, on the loop between the tapings every match Colt has is either him winning a singles match or losing in a tag match because Dalton gets pinned, then, at the next TV tapings you can have them lose because Dalton gets pinned and Colt can turn on Dalton, as opposed to what Delirious did, which was put them over on the majority of the shows leading up to the turn, including having Dalton destroy a dude in thirty seconds immediately before the turn, plus have Dalton pin the world champion) so that all you need to inform your audience about the results of those shows is a quick comment by the announcers explaining what happened and why it is relevant.
- Rather than trying to cram three or four matches plus a talking segment into each one hour TV show, shoot for two long matches and maybe one very short one, plus a bunch of promos to either follow up on things that have happened before or set up matches for next week. This will have several benefits, including the fact that you can do most of it backstage, which means the you can spend more time per taping on matches, helping to stretch the tapings out so you can get at least five weeks of TV in each taping, reducing the number of tapings (thus saving money) while increasing the quality of the matches and the TV product as a whole, and the fact that this will let the wrestlers all cut their own promos to let us know what the story is in their own words, as opposed to hearing it secondhand from the announcers, where it loses its emotion.
- Focusing on clean finishes will vastly differentiate them from every other wrestling product that we’ve seen on TV for the past twenty years.
This way they would save money, put on a better product, and make their non-televised shows feel like an actual part of the story, something else we haven’t seen done by a televised wrestling promotion in many years.
The whole “false heel” dynamic is a completely self-inflicted wound because there was absolutely no reason to turn them heel in the first place! Everyone knew that the Bucks would get cheered no matter what they did, so why would you ever turn them heel? So you could do yet another big heel stable with Adam Cole as the champion, but this time with an otherwise stale act from a different company? (And make no mistake about it: at that point, Bullet Club was stale everywhere. The Bucks & Kenny Omega weren’t stale, but Bullet Club as an entity was. That’s why the Bucks and Omega came up with the idea of The Elite in the first place).
You say that they haven’t changed like TNA or WCW, but I see them making all of TNA’s mistakes all over again.
- An announce team seemingly designed to emulate everything that people hate about WWE’s team
- Very poor booking of their titles
- Completely and totally abandoning any attempt to tell a real story on the undercard
- Very little mobility in the card (see: Rush, Lio and Dijak, Donovan), even when they do try to push someone (see: Page, Adam)
- Totally abandoning the things that made the promotion what it was and what made it unique, essentially giving up the advantages they had over WWE (and TNA) to become WWE-Lite
- Starting to rely on gimmick matches to draw rather than building up stories well
- WWE cast-offs coming in to fill prominent roles in the company even though they aren’t good enough in the ring to fill that spot, which comes at the expense of home-grown talent.
Yes, most of the time the in-ring action on the non-televised shows ranges from decent to great (with the occasional outlier in either direction). The problem is that almost nothing that happens on them matters to the overall storylines in any way, the way the cards are booked often makes watching more than one show between taping sets feel redundant, and yes, the level of the in-ring product is not close to what it used to be and yet they are still trying to charge me the same amount of money to see the shows. Furthermore, I think that for any product that is not the #1 in the business that is going to come along and make the general claim that “we have the best wrestling in the world,” you really do need to be head and shoulders above the in-ring action of the bigger companies, and that goes doubly so for a promotion like ROH which has made its reputation off of workrate.
EVOLVE crowds aren’t dead. They’re just different than most other wrestling crowds. They’re much more like the old Japanese crowds before the Bucks and Naito came along and changed the dynamic over there. Do you know which promotion doesn’t have the “false heel” problem? EVOLVE. Because Gabe figured out that the solution to that problem is to cut down on cheating so that when it happens, it actually means something, and to keep almost all of your characters (aside from a major heel like Ethan Page was) from straying more than a step over the moral event horizon, so that if people want to cheer for someone like Catchpoint, a viewer, from a kayfabe point of view can understand how someone could be willing to excuse their dickish behavior and cheer for them, rather than having guys doing absolutely despicable things that getting cheered for it anyway like happens in other promotions.
- Ok, so yeah, ROH drew big houses bc of the Hardys and the Young Bucks and the Bullet Club, oh, surprise, surprise, that was the intention of ROH. It's like if you claim NJPW for doing records saying "Oh, WK just sold out bc of the double ME, not for the company as a whole". BC in ROH bc their wrestlers are under contract with ROH. Is a decission of ROH booking his shows with the BC as the central attaction. This is so stupid, is like blaming other companies for sell their shows "just bc they have 2-3 big main eventers draws".Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:42 pm Yes, ROH has broken their own attendance records this year, but what were the draws for their big houses?
- SCOH was drawn pretty much exclusively by the Hardys vs. Bucks match, which ROH’s booking did absolutely nothing to help (and I’d argue that putting the belts on the Hardys at Manhattan Mayhem just to do a switch back hurt the belts, and also hurt the feud, as the SCOH match became their third match in a month rather than their first. And, once Delirious knew that match was secure, he went about his business doing absolutely nothing with the Young Bucks for the first three months of the year, not bothering to build up any challengers for the tag titles whatsoever, while also doing nothing to build up any other challengers for the TV Title or the Six-Man Tag Team Titles).
- The NJPW shows were drawn by New Japan guys- and Suzuki, Tanahashi, Omega, Naito, Hiromu, and KUSHIDA in particular (and, you could argue, Cole’s last matches, but it’s not like ROH actually built the shows up that way for obvious reasons so maybe that shouldn’t even count, as nothing ROH did affected it).
- The UK shows were drawn by the combination of New Japan guys and the rarity of ROH going to the UK
That doesn’t leave us with too many shows left, a chunk of which actually drew less than what ROH did last time in those towns (I’m almost certain February’s Texas shows drew less than ROH did in those same markets for SOTF last November, and the February cards not only had Cody, but also the Bucks on them, and several title matches, which was not the case with SOTF 2016. The fact of the matter is that if you took the Young Bucks and the New Japan guys away from ROH right now, the attendance would plummet, and ROH has done almost nothing to move anyone into a position to even come close to replacing that lost talent. They’re being propped up not by the booking, but by two dudes who are excellent at staying ahead of the curve in terms of how to cultivate popularity in wrestling, and by their association with another promotion, which will have very little incentive not to dump ROH if their own plans in the US start to take off- a decision that could easily be made before the end of next year.
I can tell you that they’re less relevant because nothing that they do seems to catch anyone’s attention. You don’t hear anyone talking about Jay Briscoe turning on Bully Ray or Cody as the ROH World Champion or whatever a guy like Jay Lethal or Christopher Daniels are doing. I can tell you that they’re less relevant because you’re seeing established indy stars publically slighting the company on their ways out the door, all pretty much saying that the booking is a problem. I can tell you that they’re less relevant because the indy guys with buzz who should be going to ROH are all going elsewhere, even after WWE has now made it clear that they’ll sign you even if you do go to ROH. A regional promotion like AAW should not have a better core of young wrestlers than ROH.
AlexROH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:01 amBig Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:42 pm You and Dragon Saga and others keep making this argument, but not one person has ever explained why being on TV and having PPVs and contracts means that the product has to be this poorly-booked mess full of dirty finishes and comedy in every match and the rules being ignored whenever the wrestlers feel like ignoring them, and results of 80% of the matches being totally irrelevant, and guys who aren’t good enough to cut the ROH mustard like Cody, Bully Ray, Vinny Marseglia and Will Ferrara being all over the product. Just because WWE and TNA can’t figure out how to make it work doesn’t mean no one can. There was nothing about the old way of doing things that couldn’t have been easily adjusted for TV without losing the character of the product. Having killer matches and being a major wrestling promotion are no mutually exclusive.
I’ve said it a million times:
- Cut down the roster so that you’re not paying people who just take up space or aren’t good enough for ROH
- Focus on stories where the results of the matches are important so that the non-PPV /iPPV shows can be used to reinforce those stories (for example, if Cabana is turning on Dalton because he thinks Dalton’s non-serious attitude is holding him back, on the first taping you have them lose with Dalton getting pinned and then later have Colt say something to Dalton about it, then, on the loop between the tapings every match Colt has is either him winning a singles match or losing in a tag match because Dalton gets pinned, then, at the next TV tapings you can have them lose because Dalton gets pinned and Colt can turn on Dalton, as opposed to what Delirious did, which was put them over on the majority of the shows leading up to the turn, including having Dalton destroy a dude in thirty seconds immediately before the turn, plus have Dalton pin the world champion) so that all you need to inform your audience about the results of those shows is a quick comment by the announcers explaining what happened and why it is relevant.
- Rather than trying to cram three or four matches plus a talking segment into each one hour TV show, shoot for two long matches and maybe one very short one, plus a bunch of promos to either follow up on things that have happened before or set up matches for next week. This will have several benefits, including the fact that you can do most of it backstage, which means the you can spend more time per taping on matches, helping to stretch the tapings out so you can get at least five weeks of TV in each taping, reducing the number of tapings (thus saving money) while increasing the quality of the matches and the TV product as a whole, and the fact that this will let the wrestlers all cut their own promos to let us know what the story is in their own words, as opposed to hearing it secondhand from the announcers, where it loses its emotion.
- Focusing on clean finishes will vastly differentiate them from every other wrestling product that we’ve seen on TV for the past twenty years.
This way they would save money, put on a better product, and make their non-televised shows feel like an actual part of the story, something else we haven’t seen done by a televised wrestling promotion in many years.
The whole “false heel” dynamic is a completely self-inflicted wound because there was absolutely no reason to turn them heel in the first place! Everyone knew that the Bucks would get cheered no matter what they did, so why would you ever turn them heel? So you could do yet another big heel stable with Adam Cole as the champion, but this time with an otherwise stale act from a different company? (And make no mistake about it: at that point, Bullet Club was stale everywhere. The Bucks & Kenny Omega weren’t stale, but Bullet Club as an entity was. That’s why the Bucks and Omega came up with the idea of The Elite in the first place).
You say that they haven’t changed like TNA or WCW, but I see them making all of TNA’s mistakes all over again.
- An announce team seemingly designed to emulate everything that people hate about WWE’s team
- Very poor booking of their titles
- Completely and totally abandoning any attempt to tell a real story on the undercard
- Very little mobility in the card (see: Rush, Lio and Dijak, Donovan), even when they do try to push someone (see: Page, Adam)
- Totally abandoning the things that made the promotion what it was and what made it unique, essentially giving up the advantages they had over WWE (and TNA) to become WWE-Lite
- Starting to rely on gimmick matches to draw rather than building up stories well
- WWE cast-offs coming in to fill prominent roles in the company even though they aren’t good enough in the ring to fill that spot, which comes at the expense of home-grown talent.
Yes, most of the time the in-ring action on the non-televised shows ranges from decent to great (with the occasional outlier in either direction). The problem is that almost nothing that happens on them matters to the overall storylines in any way, the way the cards are booked often makes watching more than one show between taping sets feel redundant, and yes, the level of the in-ring product is not close to what it used to be and yet they are still trying to charge me the same amount of money to see the shows. Furthermore, I think that for any product that is not the #1 in the business that is going to come along and make the general claim that “we have the best wrestling in the world,” you really do need to be head and shoulders above the in-ring action of the bigger companies, and that goes doubly so for a promotion like ROH which has made its reputation off of workrate.
EVOLVE crowds aren’t dead. They’re just different than most other wrestling crowds. They’re much more like the old Japanese crowds before the Bucks and Naito came along and changed the dynamic over there. Do you know which promotion doesn’t have the “false heel” problem? EVOLVE. Because Gabe figured out that the solution to that problem is to cut down on cheating so that when it happens, it actually means something, and to keep almost all of your characters (aside from a major heel like Ethan Page was) from straying more than a step over the moral event horizon, so that if people want to cheer for someone like Catchpoint, a viewer, from a kayfabe point of view can understand how someone could be willing to excuse their dickish behavior and cheer for them, rather than having guys doing absolutely despicable things that getting cheered for it anyway like happens in other promotions.
It’s not just a Bullet Club thing, though. It’s been happening since well before Bullet Club turned heel, and Bullet Club have been far from the only people doing it.
Again, you keep saying “that will never work on a big-time level” but you never once give an argument as to why. The only thing you seem to be saying that because smaller promotions like AAW, EVOLVE, and PWG have never drawn thousands of people, then their styles will not work to a TV audience, but the problem with that is that there are also many, many indies that use the same style that ROH has shifted towards and they’re not on TV, either. I’d venture to guess that if you put EVOLVE on TV, they would start drawing a lot more people (especially if you had ROH’s money behind them to increase production values).AlexROH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:01 am
- Yeah, I'm sure you can do it the old way and be as popular as of right now. Yes, sure, the super-indy model works a lot in the big scene. Yeah, that's why EVOLVE, AAW and PWG are so big and put on all these PPVs. Man, I love indy wrestling, but you cannot have big indy wrestling on television. ROH isn't an indy, they have people under contracts, it's normal that the younger guys don't want to sign with them bc they want to be free to wrestle whever they want, that's why they go to EVOLVE or other places.
I disagree heavily with the assertion that the false heel Bullet Club dynamic is the most over thing outside of WWE. Bullet Club (and specifically Omega, Scurll, and the Bucks) is the most over thing in wrestling (even including WWE, IMO). Whether they’re booked as faces or heels is irrelevant to that. I’m not saying they’d be cooler as babyfaces, but I am saying that they would be just as cool, and it would make the product accessible to more people. I cannot count the number of times I’ve been watching ROH or WWE and someone else in the room has asked “why are people cheering when that guy just cheated? Isn’t that guy the bad guy?”AlexROH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:01 am
- Again, if you don't like the false heel BC dinamic, stop watching this. It's what people like, it's the most over thing outiside WWE, they are bigger that the companies they wrestle for, and you are telling me that it would be cooler if they would act like you want and stop doing if shit? Argh.
It’s not just because of Cody or Bully. It’s the fact that they have decided that the path to success is to abandon the thing that brought them their success in the first place in exchange for booking themselves like WWE-Lite. If you want to argue that Cody is a draw and have numbers to back it up I’ll believe you, but that doesn’t mean that he has to be world champion.AlexROH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:01 am
- You still are comparing ROH and TNA, yeah, just because we have ONE wrestler, that is a real draw, as the World Champ. From a wrestling point I don't like Cody, but he is the best move for the economy of the company, and, surprise surprise, the important thing is making money, and not having the champion twitter wants to. That's how real world works, and that's why ROH isn't an super-dream-match indy.
Difference of opinion. Fair enough.AlexROH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:01 am
- If you think EVOLVE crowds are the same that old japanese crowds... Well, believe what you want to, but that is false. I've been a fan of puroresu a long time and watched old stuff, EVOLVE's crowd are dead bc they have failed to create their own fanbase and they have failed as a company. I've talked about this in another thread long ago.
My point is that that the ROH booking team did nothing to get Bucks vs. Hardys over. Find me an ROH storyline that has noticeably increased the houses. ROH has been drawing big houses not because of the strength of the stories being told but because the talent involved has gotten themselves over, without the help of ROH’s booking, If Bullet Club decided to sign elsewhere next time their contracts are up, ROH would be sunk.AlexROH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:01 am- Ok, so yeah, ROH drew big houses bc of the Hardys and the Young Bucks and the Bullet Club, oh, surprise, surprise, that was the intention of ROH. It's like if you claim NJPW for doing records saying "Oh, WK just sold out bc of the double ME, not for the company as a whole". BC in ROH bc their wrestlers are under contract with ROH. Is a decission of ROH booking his shows with the BC as the central attaction. This is so stupid, is like blaming other companies for sell their shows "just bc they have 2-3 big main eventers draws".Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:42 pm Yes, ROH has broken their own attendance records this year, but what were the draws for their big houses?
- SCOH was drawn pretty much exclusively by the Hardys vs. Bucks match, which ROH’s booking did absolutely nothing to help (and I’d argue that putting the belts on the Hardys at Manhattan Mayhem just to do a switch back hurt the belts, and also hurt the feud, as the SCOH match became their third match in a month rather than their first. And, once Delirious knew that match was secure, he went about his business doing absolutely nothing with the Young Bucks for the first three months of the year, not bothering to build up any challengers for the tag titles whatsoever, while also doing nothing to build up any other challengers for the TV Title or the Six-Man Tag Team Titles).
- The NJPW shows were drawn by New Japan guys- and Suzuki, Tanahashi, Omega, Naito, Hiromu, and KUSHIDA in particular (and, you could argue, Cole’s last matches, but it’s not like ROH actually built the shows up that way for obvious reasons so maybe that shouldn’t even count, as nothing ROH did affected it).
- The UK shows were drawn by the combination of New Japan guys and the rarity of ROH going to the UK
That doesn’t leave us with too many shows left, a chunk of which actually drew less than what ROH did last time in those towns (I’m almost certain February’s Texas shows drew less than ROH did in those same markets for SOTF last November, and the February cards not only had Cody, but also the Bucks on them, and several title matches, which was not the case with SOTF 2016. The fact of the matter is that if you took the Young Bucks and the New Japan guys away from ROH right now, the attendance would plummet, and ROH has done almost nothing to move anyone into a position to even come close to replacing that lost talent. They’re being propped up not by the booking, but by two dudes who are excellent at staying ahead of the curve in terms of how to cultivate popularity in wrestling, and by their association with another promotion, which will have very little incentive not to dump ROH if their own plans in the US start to take off- a decision that could easily be made before the end of next year.
I can tell you that they’re less relevant because nothing that they do seems to catch anyone’s attention. You don’t hear anyone talking about Jay Briscoe turning on Bully Ray or Cody as the ROH World Champion or whatever a guy like Jay Lethal or Christopher Daniels are doing. I can tell you that they’re less relevant because you’re seeing established indy stars publically slighting the company on their ways out the door, all pretty much saying that the booking is a problem. I can tell you that they’re less relevant because the indy guys with buzz who should be going to ROH are all going elsewhere, even after WWE has now made it clear that they’ll sign you even if you do go to ROH. A regional promotion like AAW should not have a better core of young wrestlers than ROH.
- And again, don't reading comments on your forum or timeline doesn't mean that people aren't talking about that. I don't know how your audience grows if nobody is talking about your product.
Right. They’re not the bottom level promotion where people break in anymore, and they’re not even the next level above that where they see you doing well in the place they broke in and they take a chance on you. But there comes a point when talented young wrestlers reach a point in their careers where they are ready to start working for a promotion the size of Ring of Honor but either they avoid ROH, or they come in for a year or two and then leave, unhappy. Pretty much everyone who shows up in EVOLVE or PWG looks like they’re MILES ahead of most of the dorks who get brought in for the Top Prospect Tournament. That is the sort of thing that shouldn’t be happening. Guys like Rush, Dijak, and Cedric, should not be leaving in total frustration.
I realize I don’t have to watch it, but it’s a product I’ve been following closely for a decade now and it’s a hard habit to break. I guess my main problem is that I don’t understand how we got to this change in fanbase that not only accepts the sort of bullsh*t the promotion was specifically founded on not doing, but even cheers it. When TNA went down the tubes, only the only people who stayed on were the Kool-Aid drinking die-hards who believed that everything TNA did was wonderful and everything WWE did was evil and everything that ever happened in ROH was small-time, but with ROH the crowds are growing, not shrinking, despite the much worse in-ring product and violation of principles, and yet the people at the shows don’t come across as the same type of blind zealots you’d get in TNA. If anyone has any insights into this, they would be greatly appreciated.AlexROH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:01 am
I understand your points and I understand that you'd be a better booker and a better promoter for ROH. I know you would like the company to have another mindset, but hey, the thing is they've grown in the last 15 years and have stablished themselves as the number 2 promotion in the USA with a strong alliance with NJPW. That's how it works bc people love it. If you don't like it, go and watch the Golden Super-Indy Era or just stop watching ROH. I don't have a problem talking with you, but if I don't enjoy a promotion and see all problems in it, I'd quit it, just like I did with Impact, LU or most of PWG's stuff.
Was the golden era better? Yes. Is this are f'n bullshit? I don't think so. You don't have yo compare everything. I can enjoy both the old and the current product, if you can't, you should think if is really worth watching current ROH.
I'll even agree with this, though I've been quite fond of NXT, too, and I think that, for the few weeks of Ultima Lucha, LU has been better. I just find that to be a function of being the best of a mediocre bunch rather than being actively great like the TV show was from 2013-2015.The Dragon Saga wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:37 am For what it's worth, ROH has actually probably been the best wrestling TV show overall the past two months. The shows have been pretty well booked and done since the Carrbus taping.
That combination of serious with goofy "ironic" stuff is exactly what WWE is to me. You're right that there are many people doing what the ROH of old used to do, but none of those people are anywhere near the scale that ROH is. I think that void still exists on the televised level, and I don't understand why ROH would shift away from that to become more like WWE and TNA, trying to corner their marketplace instead of filling their own niche.BurningHammer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:19 am The thing is I don't really know if this ROH is better or worse than the previous one, to me it's just different but I still enjoy it and right now I really enjoy it. The fact is if ROH wants to grow they are doing exactly what they have to, they are keeping in trend with what is wanted as a whole in wrestling and honestly probably doing it better than anyone right now. If you are looking at ROH through the glassy eye of yester year then honestly I can see why anyone would dislike it, it's a very feeling and show now but I don't believe that's bad.
The ROH of old, to me anyway, developed in a void that people felt was desperately needed in wrestling, there really wasn't anything like it especially with the money behind it. Right now there are many promotions that have and still do what ROH set the standard of in the US and I don't believe ROH would be getting the eyes it does now if it kept being that. ROH is doing the same today it's feeling a void for a rather large group of fans that wants to see a mixture of real storylines but also something that points to us the Marks to say we love you and we are going push us this ironic, riddiculous take of wrestling to it's limits.
I think what the WWE are doing right now is trying to capture what ROH/Bullet Club etc have done well, to me WWE right now is becoming like the worst of WCW through the years. ROH has had a lot of growing pains in this period and got a lot wrong but from what I am seeing they are starting to get a lot things right, from an image of a charachter to how people looking coming out matches all the way down the card. The holes aren't becoming obvious so much, well to me anywayBig Red Machine wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:06 amThat combination of serious with goofy "ironic" stuff is exactly what WWE is to me. You're right that there are many people doing what the ROH of old used to do, but none of those people are anywhere near the scale that ROH is. I think that void still exists on the televised level, and I don't understand why ROH would shift away from that to become more like WWE and TNA, trying to corner their marketplace instead of filling their own niche.BurningHammer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:19 am The thing is I don't really know if this ROH is better or worse than the previous one, to me it's just different but I still enjoy it and right now I really enjoy it. The fact is if ROH wants to grow they are doing exactly what they have to, they are keeping in trend with what is wanted as a whole in wrestling and honestly probably doing it better than anyone right now. If you are looking at ROH through the glassy eye of yester year then honestly I can see why anyone would dislike it, it's a very feeling and show now but I don't believe that's bad.
The ROH of old, to me anyway, developed in a void that people felt was desperately needed in wrestling, there really wasn't anything like it especially with the money behind it. Right now there are many promotions that have and still do what ROH set the standard of in the US and I don't believe ROH would be getting the eyes it does now if it kept being that. ROH is doing the same today it's feeling a void for a rather large group of fans that wants to see a mixture of real storylines but also something that points to us the Marks to say we love you and we are going push us this ironic, riddiculous take of wrestling to it's limits.
I think the 60 minute show will help abate the problem of things being too long because you would only have two long matches per show, rather than five or six long matches in a show that runs three and a half hours. ROH is currently definitely doing everything right in terms of marketing (Dave had some extremely interesting comments on this in this week's Observer). It's just the actual product- and especially the storytelling- that is suffering.BurningHammer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:47 pmI think what the WWE are doing right now is trying to capture what ROH/Bullet Club etc have done well, to me WWE right now is becoming like the worst of WCW through the years. ROH has had a lot of growing pains in this period and got a lot wrong but from what I am seeing they are starting to get a lot things right, from an image of a charachter to how people looking coming out matches all the way down the card. The holes aren't becoming obvious so much, well to me anywayBig Red Machine wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:06 amThat combination of serious with goofy "ironic" stuff is exactly what WWE is to me. You're right that there are many people doing what the ROH of old used to do, but none of those people are anywhere near the scale that ROH is. I think that void still exists on the televised level, and I don't understand why ROH would shift away from that to become more like WWE and TNA, trying to corner their marketplace instead of filling their own niche.BurningHammer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:19 am The thing is I don't really know if this ROH is better or worse than the previous one, to me it's just different but I still enjoy it and right now I really enjoy it. The fact is if ROH wants to grow they are doing exactly what they have to, they are keeping in trend with what is wanted as a whole in wrestling and honestly probably doing it better than anyone right now. If you are looking at ROH through the glassy eye of yester year then honestly I can see why anyone would dislike it, it's a very feeling and show now but I don't believe that's bad.
The ROH of old, to me anyway, developed in a void that people felt was desperately needed in wrestling, there really wasn't anything like it especially with the money behind it. Right now there are many promotions that have and still do what ROH set the standard of in the US and I don't believe ROH would be getting the eyes it does now if it kept being that. ROH is doing the same today it's feeling a void for a rather large group of fans that wants to see a mixture of real storylines but also something that points to us the Marks to say we love you and we are going push us this ironic, riddiculous take of wrestling to it's limits.
I think it's more that the a wider audience will want a product that they can sit through easily, especially on TV than say the ROH of old, which although I loved dam could it be grueling to get through a show just from it's intensity. I can always remember that the seriousness of ROH turned many away or the long matches just became too much. I do miss some aspects of the old ROH for sure, seeing a 60 minute classic multiple times never got old and seeing guys all the way from the bottom of the card to the top grow and become people I really wanted to see was great. In some ways these things are returning in small patches and maybe there should be alot more of it. Right now I think for getting a bigger audience in all area's, young, old, male, female ROH is probably going about it the right way.