Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

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Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Same class as Xavier, Lynn, and Elgin
4
24%
Higher than that - specify the level
13
76%
 
Total votes: 17

kovs27
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by kovs27 »

maxx_powerz wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:59 am So now that it's in the books ... Yes, this reign was bottom of the barrel. I'd say it's 80% on Cody, 20% on Delirious. The first two thirds or whatever we're just the drizzling shits, with the Sanada, Suzuki and Kushida matches all sucking. It's mostly on Cody for stalling so much and killing the crowd each time, but the random exhibition matches against Japanese talent with no storyline certainly didn't help. It felt like Cody turned a bit of a corner, as the Rocky Romero and Christopher Daniels no holds barred matches were pretty well received (and the Lethal match last week in RPW was too). I think if the match last night was better, you could make the argument Cody was hitting his stride when he dropped the belt. Since it wasn't better, I think the takeaway is that Rocky Romero, Christopher Daniels and Jay Lethal are great wrestlers who were more determined to help Cody look good than the Japanese guys. In hindsight, the Daniels / Cody fued should have ended at Death Before Dishonor instead of a random VOD and the fact they didn't run the match with Lethal on an actual ROH show when he's basically the only guy with a win over Cody is crazy. So yeah, lots of booking mistakes. Plus, since Cody's two best singles matches (SCOH and SotF with Daniels) have been gimmick matches, Cody might need to embrace that he needs the help, and he's more of a Steen style wise than the Danielson he clearly thinks he is.
I agree. Once the bell rings Cody just doesn't bring anything or different to the table that you couldn't see on an episode of Smackdown circa 2012. If anything Cody has proven just how good Jay Lethal and Daniels really are since those were his best matches by far.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by Big Red Machine »

kovs27 wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:55 am
maxx_powerz wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:59 am So now that it's in the books ... Yes, this reign was bottom of the barrel. I'd say it's 80% on Cody, 20% on Delirious. The first two thirds or whatever we're just the drizzling shits, with the Sanada, Suzuki and Kushida matches all sucking. It's mostly on Cody for stalling so much and killing the crowd each time, but the random exhibition matches against Japanese talent with no storyline certainly didn't help. It felt like Cody turned a bit of a corner, as the Rocky Romero and Christopher Daniels no holds barred matches were pretty well received (and the Lethal match last week in RPW was too). I think if the match last night was better, you could make the argument Cody was hitting his stride when he dropped the belt. Since it wasn't better, I think the takeaway is that Rocky Romero, Christopher Daniels and Jay Lethal are great wrestlers who were more determined to help Cody look good than the Japanese guys. In hindsight, the Daniels / Cody fued should have ended at Death Before Dishonor instead of a random VOD and the fact they didn't run the match with Lethal on an actual ROH show when he's basically the only guy with a win over Cody is crazy. So yeah, lots of booking mistakes. Plus, since Cody's two best singles matches (SCOH and SotF with Daniels) have been gimmick matches, Cody might need to embrace that he needs the help, and he's more of a Steen style wise than the Danielson he clearly thinks he is.
I agree. Once the bell rings Cody just doesn't bring anything or different to the table that you couldn't see on an episode of Smackdown circa 2012. If anything Cody has proven just how good Jay Lethal and Daniels really are since those were his best matches by far.
Pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. As for being bottom of the barrel... it's definitely somewhere at the bottom, but having not seen the matches with Rocky or the Daniels SOTF match, I can't quite say how far down. Obviously it's better than Kyle's but I think if either of those matches are 8/10 or above, I might have to put it over Homicide's too.
Montana
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by Montana »

I disagree... First of all, his reign accomplished EVERYTHING that they wanted to be accomplished during it. Were there 5 stars matches, no... but people were talking about ROH again. Highest attendance ever pretty much. He brought the entertainment side to ROH with great promos. The actual Ring of Honor. The new ROH belt. He was always in the wrestling news, for various things. Tweeting with regins, keeping ROH in the news. It's smart. He got the new face of the company over in a big way, on a BIG show. I'm very sure Cody could have used politics to retain at Final Battle, but he realized it's good for business as Dalton Castle was ready and deserved it.

Some of the reigns his was better than:
Xavier
James Gibson
Homicide
Jerry Lynn
Eddie Edwards
Kyle O Reily
Christopher Daniels

and you could even argue reigns like Michael Elgin, and one of Adam Coles.

Personally i think he's going to win the belt back too.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by Big Red Machine »

Montana wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:45 am I disagree... First of all, his reign accomplished EVERYTHING that they wanted to be accomplished during it. Were there 5 stars matches, no... but people were talking about ROH again. Highest attendance ever pretty much. He brought the entertainment side to ROH with great promos. The actual Ring of Honor. The new ROH belt. He was always in the wrestling news, for various things. Tweeting with regins, keeping ROH in the news. It's smart. He got the new face of the company over in a big way, on a BIG show. I'm very sure Cody could have used politics to retain at Final Battle, but he realized it's good for business as Dalton Castle was ready and deserved it.
Some of the reigns his was better than:
Xavier
James Gibson
Homicide
Jerry Lynn
Eddie Edwards
Kyle O Reily
Christopher Daniels

and you could even argue reigns like Michael Elgin, and one of Adam Coles.

Personally i think he's going to win the belt back too.
1. With the exception of Xavier, all of those reigns you mentioned were at most half as long as Cody's, and Elgin's clearly ended much earlier than was planned.

2. "Accomplished everything they wanted to accomplish" is a phrase that could apply to pretty much all of those reigns you listed aside from Elgin, Kyle (unless you believe that the plan was always for him to lose it back, which seems possible), and Gibson (and in Gibson's case it was just because he signed back with WWE. Given time, Gabe would have gotten everything he wanted out of that, too).

3. The problem isn't that there weren't any ***** matches. It's that (aside from maybe the Daniels SOTF match, which I haven't seen yet) there weren't really any **** matches, either (aside from one that Jay Lethal carried him to, in another promotion, that was still in and of itself a worse version of a match that Lethal and Cole had in that same building for ROH the year before). Hell, there were barely any *** 3/4 matches. Pretty much all of Jerry Lynn's defenses were better (aside from maybe the Cabana defense), and Jerry was almost fifteen years older than Cody at the time.
Meanwhile, in his six months as champion, Cody only had two real feuds (although even the Dalton feud had very little build that actually felt like a feud), and of his fourteen title defenses, only about three or four of them involved a challenger who had actually done anything to earn a title shot, and one of those defenses didn't even take place in ROH. He got handed a f*cking first time ever match match with Minoru Suzuki in Suzuki's first time in US in decades and put on a sh*t-show. He got handed top New Japan talents like KUSHIDA and Sanada... and put on a sh*t-show.

4. As people have said time and again, Cody has nothing to do with the attendance. I have never seen anyone get so lucky about being in the right place at the right time as Cody. He started his indy tour and was able to be carried by top-notch workers like Zack Sabre Jr. and Marty Scurll and Chris Hero, but after a while he wound up getting pretty clearly exposed and everyone was down on him... until the moment he put a f*cking Bullet Club t-shirt on and all of a sudden the crowd is going nuts for him despite having the same sub-par matches because Bullet Club. The attendance rise in ROH has nothing to do with the booking and nothing to do with Cody. It's all about the Young Bucks and the idea of "Bullet Club." You could replace Cody with Chase Owens and do the same spots and people would go equally gaga for them and the same amount of tickets would be sold.

5. You say Cody "brought the entertainment side to ROH?" What he has brought is the exact sh*t this company is supposed to not be about. Cody is a walking cartoon character. He moves around like a f*cking like a Power Rangers villain trying to scare any children in the front row. He's a G-d damn clown. Cody's promos aren't even in the top half of the company, and, to be honest, I'd bet that if most of the undercard guys were ever allowed to talk, they'd probably better promos than Cody, too.
The "ring of honor" is idiotic. Save that delusional heel bullsh*t for WWE. Actually, scratch that. I think WWE is actually above doing that sh*t. Save that bullsh*t for TNA.
Do you know what that ring really is? It's yet another thing designed to help him stall. He gets to waste a minute of potential match-time every match expecting his opponent to kiss it and having them do something rude in response. He also gets to waste time on the outside asking fans to kiss it (which allows him to claim he's doing something different from all of the other times he rolls to the outside to stall by just walking around, or running to the back of the crowd, or throwing a chair or whatever.
The "entertainment side" of ROH didn't need help on promos. We have The Briscoes and Kenny King and Marty Scurll and Silas Young and The Addiction and the Motor City Machine Guns and Jay Lethal and Colt Cabana and Dalton Castle. We just lost Adam Cole and Bobby Fish. The only part of the "entertainment" in ROH that has needed help was the in-ring side, and Cody has done nothing but drag that down into the dirt, and taken the title with him.

6. The new belt doesn't mean sh*t. It's a piece of metal that either the company decided to waste thousands of dollars on just to try to swerve us into thinking that there was no way Dalton would win the belt tonight, or it's a piece of metal that Cody himself wasted thousands of dollars on because he's a f*cking mark.

7. Taking potshots at WWE used to be considered a low-rent and classless thing to do, and ROH has (almost) always differentiated themselves from other indy companies by not doing it. I thought it was a classless move here, too.

8. Explain to me how Cody "got the new face of the company over in a big way" by dropping the belt to him in a mediocre thirteen-minute match. He kicked out of Cody's finisher for the first time in ROH? So what? It's the same move we've seen kicked out of a million times before in WWE. And it's not like this was being pushed as a Rainmaker-esque worldkiller move, either. It never felt like anything more than Cody hitting his finisher to get the win in a midcard-length match that happened to be in the main event because the world title was on the line.
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AlexROH
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by AlexROH »

Big Red Machine wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:47 am
Montana wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:45 am I disagree... First of all, his reign accomplished EVERYTHING that they wanted to be accomplished during it. Were there 5 stars matches, no... but people were talking about ROH again. Highest attendance ever pretty much. He brought the entertainment side to ROH with great promos. The actual Ring of Honor. The new ROH belt. He was always in the wrestling news, for various things. Tweeting with regins, keeping ROH in the news. It's smart. He got the new face of the company over in a big way, on a BIG show. I'm very sure Cody could have used politics to retain at Final Battle, but he realized it's good for business as Dalton Castle was ready and deserved it.
Some of the reigns his was better than:
Xavier
James Gibson
Homicide
Jerry Lynn
Eddie Edwards
Kyle O Reily
Christopher Daniels

and you could even argue reigns like Michael Elgin, and one of Adam Coles.

Personally i think he's going to win the belt back too.
It's all about the Young Bucks and the idea of "Bullet Club." You could replace Cody with Chase Owens and do the same spots and people would go equally gaga for them and the same amount of tickets would be sold.
You've lost me BRM, you cannot be serious. If you don't see Cody as an indy draw and think that people doesn't pay to see a man that has more followers that all the Bullet Club and ROH... Argh, you cannot be serious. If you don't want to see that Cody is popular, after all the year, after all the stuff he did in every indy before ROH, with huge pops and attendance numbers everywhere he went, after all the media... Cody has been the only champion in ROH history that has been bigger than the whole company. Is he the best in the ring? No. Is he very popular ? Yes. Does he have a great business mind? Yes.

If you want to convice yourself that he isn't a draw when fucking NJPW put him against Okada as the main event of their big return to the US, do it. I know you hate his work and what he's done with your ROH, but it looks like you create and believe your own lies just to "prove" that he is Chase Owens.
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Wilson
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by Wilson »

Even before Cody joined the Bullet Club, he definitely bucked the trend of ex-WWE star apathy for those that debut in indies. He was popular, and then he joined Bullet Club, and was protected by NJPW, and joined Being the Elite after the Young Bucks started integrating the series into the ROH product during the Hardys feud. The quick succession of these led to combustive popularity. Him being a draw seems incontrovertible.

The only thing to speculate here is if Cody is replaceable. Under the parameters of entering the indies afresh, having a select amount of American indie dates, gaining generous NJPW booking, and being included in Being the Elite, I think he might be. His toolset involves mostly indistinct components: TV interview ability, serviceable ring work, formal dress, an affinity for 80s-era wrestling. Judging by talent alone, I can honestly see Ryback, Wade Barrett, Dolph Ziggler doing just as well as Cody in this role, if circumstances were somehow switched--though this does not account for Cody's presumable hustle and marketing instincts.

If the Young Bucks are to be thought of as the linchpin in all this, then Cody did his performed his duties in a role that was almost scheduled for him. Excuse the hyperbole, but an estimable comparison might be to think of what was required of Hulk Hogan to do when so much of the groundwork was laid by Hall and Nash. Cyclical, cynical business.
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by maxx_powerz »

If Cody stayed in WWE and the last year played out the same with Marty in Cody's spot, I don't think there would be any negative impact to attendance or ratings or whatever metric you like. Plus, the matches wouldn't suck.
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by famicommander »

Did I just read that Ryback is as talented at anything as Cody Rhodes? I mean, besides saying that everything good that happens to every wrestler was originally his idea and/or supposed to happen to him?

Because there are no circumstances where I can imagine that human botch machine getting any sort of a positive reaction in ROH.
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by supersonic »

famicommander wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:21 pm Did I just read that Ryback is as talented at anything as Cody Rhodes? I mean, besides saying that everything good that happens to every wrestler was originally his idea and/or supposed to happen to him?

Because there are no circumstances where I can imagine that human botch machine getting any sort of a positive reaction in ROH.
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by Wilson »

famicommander wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:21 pm Did I just read that Ryback is as talented at anything as Cody Rhodes? I mean, besides saying that everything good that happens to every wrestler was originally his idea and/or supposed to happen to him?

Because there are no circumstances where I can imagine that human botch machine getting any sort of a positive reaction in ROH.
I wouldn't have guessed that Cody would have gotten as over as he has either, especially in a place like New York.

What I'm driving at most is that his success wasn't merely meritocratic. Excelling at the role he played only required being above a modest threshold of talent. If Ryback were protected in NJPW and joined the Bullet Club, I think he would've performed similarly to Cody (presuming he had as much hustle and marketing sense as Cody--which is perhaps the biggest argument to make). Other replaceable actors: Wyatt, Miz, McIntyre, and probably even Swagger.

As a talent I think he's far from the drizzling shits, but I have a hard time finding a case for his success in ROH as essential to him and his serviced output.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:07 pm
Big Red Machine wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:47 am
Montana wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:45 am I disagree... First of all, his reign accomplished EVERYTHING that they wanted to be accomplished during it. Were there 5 stars matches, no... but people were talking about ROH again. Highest attendance ever pretty much. He brought the entertainment side to ROH with great promos. The actual Ring of Honor. The new ROH belt. He was always in the wrestling news, for various things. Tweeting with regins, keeping ROH in the news. It's smart. He got the new face of the company over in a big way, on a BIG show. I'm very sure Cody could have used politics to retain at Final Battle, but he realized it's good for business as Dalton Castle was ready and deserved it.
Some of the reigns his was better than:
Xavier
James Gibson
Homicide
Jerry Lynn
Eddie Edwards
Kyle O Reily
Christopher Daniels

and you could even argue reigns like Michael Elgin, and one of Adam Coles.

Personally i think he's going to win the belt back too.
It's all about the Young Bucks and the idea of "Bullet Club." You could replace Cody with Chase Owens and do the same spots and people would go equally gaga for them and the same amount of tickets would be sold.
You've lost me BRM, you cannot be serious. If you don't see Cody as an indy draw and think that people doesn't pay to see a man that has more followers that all the Bullet Club and ROH... Argh, you cannot be serious. If you don't want to see that Cody is popular, after all the year, after all the stuff he did in every indy before ROH, with huge pops and attendance numbers everywhere he went, after all the media... Cody has been the only champion in ROH history that has been bigger than the whole company. Is he the best in the ring? No. Is he very popular ? Yes. Does he have a great business mind? Yes.

If you want to convice yourself that he isn't a draw when fucking NJPW put him against Okada as the main event of their big return to the US, do it. I know you hate his work and what he's done with your ROH, but it looks like you create and believe your own lies just to "prove" that he is Chase Owens.
Social media followers do not equal money. If you want to prove to me that Cody is the draw, find me a show with Cody on it and the Bucks not on it where attendance went up. Cody was "bigger than the company" before he set foot in the door because of WWE. That does not mean that he is the one responsible for somehow propelling the company to the next level. I'll also disagree with the idea that he is the only champion who has been bigger than the company. Danielson, and Davey were both bigger than the company during their runs.

You cannot seriously be using the New Japan shows in long beach to argue that CODY drew the house! It was the first US west coast dates for Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, and Ishii, and the first in several years for Omega, Liger and the Briscoes. Are you really trying to tell me that CODY drew that house? Billy Gunn had a featured title match on that show as well. Are you going to say that he drew the house, too? They would have done the number they did without either Cody or Billy Gunn.


Perhaps this is a better phrasing of my case:
maxx_powerz wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:07 pm If Cody stayed in WWE and the last year played out the same with Marty in Cody's spot, I don't think there would be any negative impact to attendance or ratings or whatever metric you like. Plus, the matches wouldn't suck.
In fact, I think attendance might have been a smidgen higher.
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by dhads7161 »

I do agree that it may be jumping the gun a bit to say that Cody was responsible for the attendance numbers this year. SCOH and GW: Chicago were ROH's biggest houses this year Cody didn't uave top billing on either. Though his match with Lethal at SCOH was probably the second top match on the card and a match I really liked and was interested in leading up to, that show was sold on WM weekend and the Hardys vs. The Bucks. GW: Chicago was sold because it's fucking Chicago and ROH has for years been bigger than the Frontier Fieldhouse, it was the ROH/NJPW tour, and Omega was on the card and Cody I don't even remember what his match was.

While not solely responsible though to say that he had no part in it is just asinine. He has put in the work to promote the hell out of ROH and seems very committed to the company. Someone else in his shoes who has interest from every indy in the world to be booked could very well just not care to commit himself to ROH but he has.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Will Cody's ROH Title reign be bottom of the barrel or better?

Post by Big Red Machine »

dhads7161 wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:55 pm I do agree that it may be jumping the gun a bit to say that Cody was responsible for the attendance numbers this year. SCOH and GW: Chicago were ROH's biggest houses this year Cody didn't uave top billing on either. Though his match with Lethal at SCOH was probably the second top match on the card and a match I really liked and was interested in leading up to, that show was sold on WM weekend and the Hardys vs. The Bucks. GW: Chicago was sold because it's fucking Chicago and ROH has for years been bigger than the Frontier Fieldhouse, it was the ROH/NJPW tour, and Omega was on the card and Cody I don't even remember what his match was.

While not solely responsible though to say that he had no part in it is just asinine. He has put in the work to promote the hell out of ROH and seems very committed to the company. Someone else in his shoes who has interest from every indy in the world to be booked could very well just not care to commit himself to ROH but he has.
I think SCOH was sold almost purely on the backs of Bucks vs. Hardys. Once you tthat on the show, that's all you need. Lethal vs. Cody was definitely the second most built match on the show, with Dalton challenging for the title as a close third, but I don't think either of those two matches or the second biggest match in terms of star-power, which was Cole vs. Scurll for the TV Title, had anything to do with drawing that particular house.
I'm not saying he hasn't tried to promote the company, but I don't think his matches or the idea of him being on the card are drawing in anyone who wouldn't already show up for the Bucks or Ospreay or even the Briscoes.
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