ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

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Big Red Machine
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Re: ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

Post by Big Red Machine » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:35 pm

maxx_powerz wrote:SBG really lucked out by the incredible group of talent that came in late 2010 and early 2011 right before their purchase (Cole, O'Reilly, Ciampa and Elgin). Then they lucked out that NJPW wanted to expand their presence, giving ROH regular access to AJ, the Bucks, etc. For the first couple years their reputation survived, giving them access to more good talent (Cedric, ACH). I'd argue that not much has changed booking wise, there is just less talent to hide it now. If you go back and read McXal's reviews, he's been ripping the booking going back to 2012. I tend to agree.
I'd disagree with this. It wasn't, like, peak Gabe or anything in that the stories weren't super-great, but I thought that they retained the ROH-reputation of not doing f*ck finishes into about 2015 or so.

Big Red Machine
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Re: ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

Post by Big Red Machine » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:47 pm

supersonic wrote:The company's booking has largely sucked for about a decade now.
I definitely disagree with this. I don't get why people are so down on the end of Gabe's run. He made one big screw-up in botching Necro's push at Glory By Honor VII and made one or two smaller mistakes with the the likes of NRC's first tag title run, but I thought it was still mostly good. Pearce definitely took some time to figure things out but I thought he started to turn things around by March 2009 and ROH was back in full swing by April. I thought everything from about Steen's heel turn until the SBG tapings started to get into full swing in Oct. 2011 was excellent (that's mostly Pearce and Delirious). I didn't like most of Cornette's stuff, but I thought the two main problems with it were too many f*ck finishes and things developing too slowly. Cornette's booking logic was sound, but it just wasn't what ROH in 2012 needed to be. From the time Delirious took over again through Elgin's title win I thought was pretty good, although I had some issues with too many tag title switches and I wasn't fond of vacating the title, and from then on (or, I guess, really, the end of Elgin's reign) until the time Cole turned back heel at ASE the next year I thought things were very good aside from some of the booking in the world title picture, mostly during Briscoe II. There was a point in there where I thought ROH put on a TV show that was, at the very least great almost every week for about eighteen straight months. To say that the booking has stunk for a decade is, in my opinion, crazy. Just because it's not at the level it was during it's absolute peak doesn't mean that it was terrible.

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Re: ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

Post by supersonic » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:36 pm

I've continued detailing how Sapolsky fell after Glory By Honor V weekend in my thread. It wasn't a mistake or two - it was a combination compiled shitty decisions that led to the PPV experiment bombing and his firing. And I haven't even reached 2008 yet.

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Re: ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

Post by Big Red Machine » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:50 pm

supersonic wrote:I've continued detailing how Sapolsky fell after Glory By Honor V weekend in my thread. It wasn't a mistake or two - it was a combination compiled shitty decisions that led to the PPV experiment bombing and his firing. And I haven't even reached 2008 yet.
I'll have to read it to find out what you mean by the PPV experiment bombing because I thought it worked rather well. I have never seen a set of shows that manages to mesh both giving the pre-existing fanbase the excellent they want with the necessary friendliness to the new fans you're hoping to attract.

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Re: ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

Post by McXal » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:28 pm

The original post is utterly fantastic, and succinctly explains everything I've been feeling about ROH for a long time far better than I ever could.

Thank you for contributing it. I get asked a lot why the regularity of reviews over on my review site, and this article is pretty much a perfect summation of why.

It's such a draining experience watching ROH these days. And there are so many companies out there now who entertain in a way ROH used to so much better. It becomes harder and harder to justify following this promotion.

So much about ROH needs overhauled. I really feel like they are losing the Young Bucks (and arguably Jay Lethal and Jay Briscoe) away from total and complete conservative corporate irrelevance.

I sometimes wonder whether the problems lie with Delirious (sorry, he must be partly at fault right?) or the evident straightjacket the priorities of SBG place upon ROH.

Just my thoughts. Thanks again for a superb articles!

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Re: ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

Post by ROHfan2002 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 am

I enjoy the weekly TV show. The matches are almost always good (the last TV match I can remember hating was a Kingdom v. Karl Anderson/Doc Gallows abomination from several years back). I got every VOD in 2016 and the through April in 2017. I've gotten every PPV/iPPV since Death Before Dishonor in 2015. I got the annual Ringside membership back in January.

But heading into BITW Friday, I wasn't excited at all about the show. I purchased it, and watched live. There wasn't really a bad match on the show (although the main event teetered on being a bad match). A lot of action in almost every bout. However, when it was done I was very blasé about the PPV. Thinking hard about it, I had gotten a bit blasé about watching the TV every week.

Nothing bad, but nothing great either. It's just a good promotion right now that is seemingly happy chugging along at being good but not great. They lost a lot of talent in the last 8 months. The booking is now at the point for me of being stale. Not enough new talent brought in and given something to do to get me excited. For example, Evolve lost a lot of talent in 2016. Evolve stunk to me for the last six months of 2016. But Gabe went out and got about ten new names, pushed them well, integrated them into the roster quickly, and 2017 (outside of last night) has been great in Evolve.

So I made a decision to take a break from Ring of Honor. I notice that they have no PPV events until DBD in late September. I will not watch any current ROH until at least then. If I miss it, I may get the PPV and give them one last shot. If not, I might skip it.

For me, SBG right now seems content to just have a slightly above average TV show, a PPV with great work but nothing compelling story wise, and attendance that isn't dropping that much. They are OK with it. NO major talent turnover. No booking change. NO real change to the TV show. It is OK with SBG, but not that interesting to me right now as a long time fan of ROH. So I'm taking a break for three months from the current product.

For all the Cornette hate here, I think you would admit that he worked hard at making a weekly TV show that built up the talent, and the storylines, to build at a iPPV event people would want to see. Now the TV show seems to just be there, and often times has almost no real relation to what is happening at the PPV events. NOt good enough for me right now.

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Re: ROH: A Catharsis by Big Red Machine

Post by maxx_powerz » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:58 pm

Nah, Cornette was the shits. I can't comment on his weekly TV since I didn't watch it but his iPPV shows were only interesting because of Steen, who he featured against his (Cornette's; pronouns, pal) will. Death Before Dishonor 2012 was one of the worst "major" ROH shows ever and he was rightly replaced right after. I think Delirious has gotten burnt out, but I think Glory By Honor 2012 is proof he could at least deliver better big shows using the same talent Cornette couldn't deliver with.

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