ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

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JigsawVs.Jason
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by JigsawVs.Jason »

Well, that's it for me. I've been defending the current bookers way too long, that really is the lowest point in the history of the ROH belt, making a midcarder that gets no reaction and looks completely lost whenever he's in the ring champion just to get some cheap headlines.
I mean we all know ROH is not what it used to be, and I'm not even talking about the golden era, I'm talking about 2014-2015 where the product was really good and the roster was stacked. But these booking decisions are beyond acceptable!
I'm definitely going to take a break from ROH until Delirious is gone. That seems to be the only way to salvage this company.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by AlexROH »

JigsawVs.Jason wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:56 am Well, that's it for me. I've been defending the current bookers way too long, that really is the lowest point in the history of the ROH belt, making a midcarder that gets no reaction and looks completely lost whenever he's in the ring champion just to get some cheap headlines.
I mean we all know ROH is not what it used to be, and I'm not even talking about the golden era, I'm talking about 2014-2015 where the product was really good and the roster was stacked. But these booking decisions are beyond acceptable!
I'm definitely going to take a break from ROH until Delirious is gone. That seems to be the only way to salvage this company.
I agree with you about the "lowest point in the history of the belt thing" but I have to admit that Cody gets a lot of reaction. A lot of people is talking about BITW, way more people than usual is downloading the show from XWT and in my website, the results from BITW 2017 have more visits than any other ROH report in the last 4 years. I don't like where they are going, but we have to asume that we are no longer ROH's target, we are not their objetive audience. They want to attrack more "casuals" fans and WWE/IW fans for growing. I think this is a bad move, but with this formula (getting The Hardys and Cody and make them champs) they sold 3.500 tickets at SCOH and they made the last PPV the show with most VOD buys. All they care about is money.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by AlexROH »

Btw, Best in the World (if we don't talk about the ME) was a solid show. There was a little of everything and some very good matches.

- CMLL vs Kingdom ***

- Page vs Kaz ***1/2 Violent stuff, Page always deliver in hardcore matches. I don't why Kazarian got the victory here
.
- S&D vs The Rebellion ***1/4 Good match, but I was expecting a little bit more. They tried a lot of things, but there were some botches. Great to see Gresham getting the big victory for his team. Now the question is, what would they do with Taylor?

- Lethal vs Silas ***3/4 Better than the Unauthorized match. Good and intense action. They told a good story. The finish worked for me. Lethal didn't win clean and the post-match was really cool. Now they are 1-1, I expect a rubber match with Silas getting the big win. Btw, Bruiser's Frog Splash to the outside was f'n awesome!

- Castle/Boys vs Bully/Briscoes **1/2 Meh. I hate how much time they gave them. This would have worked better in 8-10 minutes, but this felt way too long. Bully doing his comedy shit is fine for VOD shows, not for PPVs. Dalton's victory was the right move, but the possibility of a Jay-Bully feud, with Bully going over, scares me a lot.

- KUSHIDA vs Scurll ***1/2+ Good, not great, match. Better than the ROH TV match, but not as great as you would expect from this two, specially now that KUSHIDA is at BITW level. In-ring, this was better than Silas-Lethal, but it felt cold. With more time, this could had been better. Now the question is, what would they do with Marty?

- War Machine vs Young Bucks vs Best Friends ***3/4
PWG spotfest! I really liked this match. Making this match a tornado tag rules was the right move. Great to see Chuck Taylor getting an opportunity in ROH. This felt fresh.

- Cody vs Daniels *1/4
Worst ROH World Title main event I've seen in years.

Final rating: 6.8/10 (despite the last 30 minutes of the PPV I don't want to talk about).
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Montana »

I'm really curious from all the people that dislikehate Cody, who should have beaten Daniels for the belt?? You realize like 3-4 main eventers just left, and they needed someone new to fill the gap. Only talent semi-ready for that was dalton castle and he just resigned.

Also, Alex's comment, all they care about is money.... that's how you survive... that's how a small business stays in business. If not, they couldn't afford people like Bucks, and several others. ROH has a hard job of balancing the hardcore and casual fans. Not an easy thing. Plus staying in business 15 years is pretty impressive. Look how long wcw/ecw lasted.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by JigsawVs.Jason »

Easy answer: Marty Scurll
A much more capable in-ring wrestler that oozes charisma and is the most over guy on the roster besides maybe the briscoes and dalton castle
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

JigsawVs.Jason wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:39 am Easy answer: Marty Scurll
A much more capable in-ring wrestler that oozes charisma and is the most over guy on the roster besides maybe the briscoes and dalton castle
This. I have said this months ago. ROH is not even relevant as a wrestling promotion anymore. Strap a rocket on Scrull and let him do his thing without Delirious fucking micromanaging and suddenly you have a wrestler that can rebuild the brand. Let Scrull expand his cu!t like following.
Sadly this is a pipe dream. One stupid decision after another. The 6 man tag titles, a title no one gives two shits about, has been put into a comedy act with Castle and The Boys. And who the fuck thought Kaz going over Page was a good idea is an idiot. My interest in wrestling has been waning. Decisions like these just don't help.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Montana »

I'm all for Marty scrull, and I think his day will come soon, but he's only been with the company 6-7 months so far. Fans that don't follow ROH religiously, or watch the DVDs and months/years behind may not know him yet even. Let alone most of the North American wrestling audience hasn't heard of him it. Why not use the heel Cody to help build up and get guys like jay white, will ospreay, and eventually Marty scrull over?? I'm sure Cody and Marty won't be partners for long.

It kind of goes back to the casual vs hardcore fans scenario. Hardcore fans would want Marty, but probably wouldn't bring in as many fans as Cody. I just don't think Cody is the end of ROH, and think it will lead to a lot of fresh matchups, and can have an entertaining reign.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Thelone »

That... doesn't make a lot of sense.

OK, let's say that ROH is trying to cater to the TV audience instead of hardcore fans on the internet who will watch everything (that's debatable nowadays, but whatever). If the TV fans don't know who Scurll is, wouldn't that mean that you don't feature him enough on TV, or do it in a way that isn't effective? This has nothing to do with some nebulous casual/hardcore split, this is just ROH doing a shitty job elevating and featuring a new wrestler.

Also Ospreay and White aren't ROH guys, they should put people over, not the opposite.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by AlexROH »

Montana wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:20 am I just don't think Cody is the end of ROH, and think it will lead to a lot of fresh matchups, and can have an entertaining reign.
Fresh matchups? Really? Tell me who's gonna challenge Cody. ROH has a lack of main eventers. Delirious work with the main event scene has been awful (just look at every post-Lethal reign). And don't talk about the midcard. He can't build new stars and have a credible mid-uppercarder with enought credibility to being push to the main event in a certain moment.

So, how would you book Cody's reign? Who would you make him face?

Lethal AGAIN?
Bully Ray after defeating Jay Briscoe?
Dalton as trios champ?
Marty doing a NWO Wolfpack vs NWO Hollywood?
Punishment Martienez?

You don't have regular talent with the credibility of having a Strong program for the Title and I don't want another Lethal-Cody match at DBD.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Wilson »

Montana wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:01 am I'm really curious from all the people that dislikehate Cody, who should have beaten Daniels for the belt?? You realize like 3-4 main eventers just left, and they needed someone new to fill the gap. Only talent semi-ready for that was dalton castle and he just resigned.
But they haven't been building towards Cody since Daniels won the title, he's been groomed since his first night. Daniels was always meant to be a babyface champion to give heat to the eventual heel successor, which is to say Cosy was booked with high intentions before they even signed him (if he's even signed now). In those six months, creative could have chosen to build up Castle or capitalize on Scurll or reinvigorate Jay Briscoe. They chose Cody, which is a poor response to all the talent that left because they thought there were better opportunities for themselves elsewhere or that ROH would never fully utilize them. How can strong can morale be for anyone that isn't in the near-babyface, New Japan-affiliated Bullet Club or isn't an established ROH star? But whatever. ROH clearly hasn't cared about optics in years and aren't really ones for being self-aware.

On Cody as a talent, I guess he's fine, much has been repeated by anyone that's seen him recently. The independents just saw Galloway, so that immediately removes the sort of spectacle of a WWE-native being transplanted into a work-driven industry shift. So far, I think he's been close to matching Galloway only without Galloway's great babyface comebacks. If he's going to be around, then it would be fine if were designated in the upper-midcard role, as he can work until the expectations of that level. He can still draw on your shows without being champion. Nothing about this seems necessary. But who knows--maybe Cody beats Okada and the whole world is actually falling apart and this is a way for the bookers to tell us to contribute to our societies instead of watching wrestling.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Wilson »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Dm65JjbZc

Cody's title speech, for those inclined. (Embedding videos doesn't seem to work for now.)
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

Thelone wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:43 am That... doesn't make a lot of sense.

OK, let's say that ROH is trying to cater to the TV audience instead of hardcore fans on the internet who will watch everything (that's debatable nowadays, but whatever). If the TV fans don't know who Scurll is, wouldn't that mean that you don't feature him enough on TV, or do it in a way that isn't effective? This has nothing to do with some nebulous casual/hardcore split, this is just ROH doing a shitty job elevating and featuring a new wrestler.

Also Ospreay and White aren't ROH guys, they should put people over, not the opposite.
Totally agree. At least Scrull is pretty prominent on social media and regardless of how his run ends in ROH, he won't suffer at all career wise. Getting booked by NJPW means he has one foot out the door. The possibility of resuming his feud with Osperey in what would be their largest audience yet has to be appealing.
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

ROH Best in the World 2017 (6/23/2017)- Lowell, MA

LUCHA RULES TAG TEAM MATCH: The Kingdom (w/T.K. O’Ryan) vs. Team CMLL (Ultimo Guerrero & El Terrible)- 5/10
Ian Riccaboni claims that there is “a lot of history in this match,” which shocked the hell out of me. Ian then went on to detail the history between these teams, which was that The Kingdom won a semi-final match in the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Title Tournament against a team which included Ultimo Guerrero. Yes, apparently ONE THING (which doesn’t even include everyone in the match) qualifies as “a lot.” If we could not say dumb sh*t for the rest of the PPV, I’d really appreciate that. And you don’t need to sell me the match anymore, Ian. If I’m hearing your voice right now it means I already bought the PPV.
The Kingdom’s entrance was over the top to the point of looking extremely stupid. Also speaking of stupid, someone needs to tell Ian RIccaboni that’s it’s 2017, not 1977, so no one is going to be outraged that T.K. O’Ryan is “not licensed to be out here by the state of Massachusetts.” Maybe instead you should be outraged over the fact that he it hit someone with a weapon.
Also speaking of stupid: Vinny Marseglia’s continued employment. The entire extent of his “character” (and I use that term extremely loosely) is the catchphrase “I do this thing called whatever I want,” which sounds like it was invented by an eighth-grader who isn’t nearly as cool or clever as he thinks he is. This catchphrase is put into action via the only move in Vinny’s moveset that I ever remember him doing, which is “bite.” He’s like my level 12 Rattata except dumber because when the Rattata uses bite at least it’s not pointlessly risking a disqualification for doing so.
The match was passable, which really isn’t acceptable for an ROH PPV. Marseglia, as documented above, sucks, El Terrible looked unremarkable, Taven was barely more impressive than that, and UG was impressive for his advanced age, but his stuff plays much better for the live crowd than it does for those of us watching at home. This is the sort of match that, if you have to do it at all, you do as a dark match so as to not waste PPV time with mediocrity.

STRAP MATCH: Adam Page vs. Frankie Kazarian- 7/10
This is a “Strap Match” like a “Lumberjack Strap Match” where the wrestlers just get straps to hit each other with, rather than the “touch all four corners” Strap Match like we’ve gotten in the past in ROH. I’m not saying I’m disappointed by this fact, but I think they need to come up with a distinctive name just to avoid confusion.
If the point of the match is that they hate each other so much they want to whip each other with straps then why is Kazarian going for a quick roll-up? Other than that one misstep early on, I thought this was pretty great. They made very good use of this less common variation of the stipulation by doing things like having Page rip Frankie’s strap off and throw it away so he had one and Frankie didn’t. That, plus a few other things they did, made Page feel more dangerous that he has felt in a very long time.
Much credit is also due to these two men for the pain they were willing to but themselves through here, both with the strap shots and with the bumps they took. That suplex onto the stairs must have absolutely sucked to take… but nowhere near as much as getting hit with that strap with nails in it. I was cringing in fear whenever they teased using it, and cringing in pain every time someone actually did make contact with it.
Kaz picked up the win here, which is yet another loss in a big match for Adam Page, but these two brought enough that it didn’t feel as bad because I felt like I was actually seeing a babyface get some much-needed revenge for once, and I definitely think this feud has enough steam for one more match, which Page should definitely win.

LOSING TEAM MUST DISBAND FOREVER: The Rebellion vs. Search & Destroy (Jonathan Gresham, Jay White, & the Motor City Machine Guns)- 6.75/10
The match was fine for the time it got. Gresham made Rhett tap out to the Octopus so after over an entire year in which they engaged in just this one feud, of which this was the only match with any sort of consequences, The Cabinet/The Rebellion is finally done with. Thank G-d.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- Punishment Martinez jumps the babyfaces and beats them up after the match to continue his feud with Jay White.

JAY LETHAL vs. SILAS YOUNG (w/Beer City Bruiser)- 7.5/10
Lethal took BCB out with a chair on his way to the ring to prevent him from being a factor in this match.
Silas hit Lethal with a chair in a way that seemed almost impossible for the referee to not see it but not only was no DQ called, but the announcers didn’t even react like this was illegal. This is the sort of thing that really bothers me, especially when your finish revolves around the referee warning Silas not to use a foreign object.
They told a good story with Silas working over Lethal’s midsection and had some convincing false finishes. We then got the finish, which saw Silas bring BCB’s keg into the ring and set Lethal’s head up on it. The referee stepped in to stop this but Silas shoved him down. Stuff happened quickly that resulted in Silas having Lethal down for the pin but the referee didn’t start counting in time because he was recovering from being shoved by Silas, which allowed Lethal to roll the roll-up over into one of his own for the pin. I like the way this plays into the feud (Silas believes the company is favoring Lethal by giving him various endorsement deals, so finish like this now gives a heel like Silas reason to believe they are having their officials favor him in the ring as well), but I really wish they had done some kind of normal soft ref bump rather than Silas trying to blatantly use a foreign object and then pushing the referee when the referee told him not to. A normal ref bump would give Silas a lot more cause to be upset, plus would have avoided the fact that the first thing Sinclair did when he recovered from the shove should have been to DQ Silas (plus there is the issue of Silas shoving a referee, which should result in a suspension). In fact, when combined with Silas’ defeat of Lethal at Unauthorized, Silas could start to claim that he truly is better than Lethal and the company knows it but they are favoring Lethal because he is more marketable (and when Lethal comes back from the injuries he surely sustained in the post-match segment you could even give Silas a clean win the return match via focusing on those injuries to add even more fuel to Silas’ fire while still keeping Lethal strong). I really wish ROH would get away from this extremely un-ROH mentality that “heels must always cheat,” because once you get out of that mentality you are no longer caught in mindset that results in shortcutting yourself into problems the line ones this version of the finish creates, and which allows you to find solutions that enhance the story more as well as giving your heels more credibility.

POST-MATCH SEGMENT- great angle
After the match Silas immediately clotheslined Lethal and the Beer City Bruiser came out to join Silas in a beat-down. Silas gave Lethal Misery with his ribs landing on the keg. Some referees came out to stand there and do nothing while the beating continued. They wedged the keg in the corner and Silas held Lethal’s arms to keep him in place while BCB splashed him repeatedly, driving his ribs into the keg. Then they set Lethal up on a table and BCB splashed him through it. Doesn’t ROH have any security? Or doesn’t Jay Lethal have any friends?

ROH WORLD SIX-MAN TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Briscoes & Bully Ray(c) vs. Dalton Castle & The Boys- DUD!
I like (read as: “hate”) how this six-man tag-team title match is happening because Dalton’s Boys created a chain of events that lead to a totally different team pinning one of the champs, and there has been no discussion whatsoever of that team getting a title shot, but the guy whose valets did something illegal to cause the loss (Dalton lost, too in that match, by the way) are being rewarded with a title shot.
Oh my G-d we finally get a Bully Ray match where he doesn’t cut a pre-match promo turning into a hardcore match for no reason other than because he says so.
The story here was that Jay was ultra-focused on getting revenge on the Boys and Mark and Bully had to calm him down, but for some reason Bully Ray was constantly getting into what he seemed to think were supposed to be intense stare-downs with Dalton Castle, seemingly over literally nothing. It really felt like Bully trying to steal the attention for himself, like he did by giving his speech to the Guerrillas of Destiny at Supercard of Honor XI, and like he always does when he makes his matches hardcore matches. Bully Ray’s very presence is infuriating to me because, more than anyone else who has ever appeared in ROH, Bully seems to be completely 100% out for himself.
Now he’s no-selling Dalton’s chops. Now he’s punching the crap out of Dalton. Dalton avoids the Bionic Elbow and instead of trying offense, he just hits his pose. Bully stares at Dalton intensely for a good minute straight… and then starts DANCING. In the middle of a f*cking title match on f*cking PPV, against a guy who he has spent every previous moment he has been in this match staring intensely at. Now he’s doing Dalton’s pose because apparently this is supposed to be funny. Or maybe it’s supposed to insult Dalton. If I can’t tell if the thing you’re doing is supposed to be comedy or supposed to be a metaphorical slap in your opponent’s face, you’re doing something wrong. This fat dumbf*ck with “hardcore” written on his gear and who talks about how “hardcore” he is in every promo is doing f*cking comedy. There is nothing I want more in the entire world right now than for Bully Ray to just disappear forever.
Now Dalton is posing, too. Attention Lowell crowd: anyone who is not loudly chanting “WE WANT WRESTLING!” right now (that would be ALL of you) is not a real ROH fan. I don’t care if that offends anyone. If you want to laugh and cheer at people dancing, go watch WWE or CHIKARA or some other ha-ha funny “entertainment” promotion. This is Ring of Honor. Ring of Honor is for WRESTLING.
After Dalton did his pose, Bully angrily slapped him. I have no idea why Bully is angry all of a sudden. I mean from a kayfabe point of view. Outside of kayfabe he is suddenly angry again because knows slapping someone very hard like that will get him the reaction. Not “the match.” Him. Because this match is supposed to be about Jay Briscoe going after the Boys, remember? Bully clearly doesn’t. Or more likely he just doesn’t care. And for the record, in this ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Title match on live PPV, we went almost two whole minutes with no one touching each other so that we could have a completely pointless pose-down.
Dalton tags out to both Boys at the same time. They’re not sure which of them is legal, so Bully throws them both in, then knocks each one down with a hard slap. Jay Briscoe wants in… so Bully Ray spends a full fifteen seconds milking the crowd before he makes the tag.
Jay bears down on one of the Boys. Then Dalton Castle distracts the referee so the other Boy can kick Jay in the testicles. From behind, no less. So I guess this is a heel turn for Dalton & the Boys? Sure seems like it should be.
The fans are now chanting for the Boys as they attack Jay. Again: the ROH crowd is chanting for the comedy dorks as they beat down Jay Briscoe after they kicked him in the nuts. What the f*ck is wrong with these people?!
The Boy in the ring then tagged out to Dalton when he saw Jay beginning to recover which is chicken-sh*t heel 101. Dalton and Jay do some actual wrestling. Mark tags in and beats up the Boys. Bully comes in just to have Mark give one Boy a Whazzzzup. Referee Paul Turner at least tried to distract himself with Dalton Castle, but it’s still not good to have the babyfaces cheating when they’re taking on a team that even the announcers acknowledged was basically one guy who was an actual threat.
Then Bully told Mark to “GET THE TABLES!” because I guess he’s a dumbf*ck and wants to get disqualified. The fans are chanting “GET THE TABLES!” because they, too, are dumb and want to see a f*cking table bump- something we see on just about every single ROH show (and that’s not even counting all of the times it happens in other promotions)- so badly that they’d happily have a DQ finish in a title match just to see it. Where did the real ROH fans go?
Jay gets a chair and throws it at one of the Boys. The Boy in question ducks, but he and his compatriot run off into the crowd because they’re cowards, who will kick a man in the nuts and then run away rather than fight him, even two-on-one. Jay wants to follow them but Bully Ray grabs him and tells him not to. So Bully is the one telling Jay to calm down, and yet Bully is the one who wants to perform illegal maneuvers… and for absolutely no reason. WHAT THE F*CK?!
Then Dalton Castle rolled Mark Briscoe up for the pin, meaning that a pair of f*cking COMEDY JOBBERS are two thirds of the ROH World Six-Man Tag Team Champions. And everyone cheers, because while they might be dirty scumbag cowardly cheaters who did nothing earn this title shot (or the previous two they got at these same titles), they do funny poses so YAY! I didn’t think these titles could possibly be made to mean less than they already did, but Delirious found a way.
And now they’re chanting “YOU DESERVE IT!” HOW?! Please explain to me what these guys did to “deserve” to win these titles. Anyone. Doesn’t even have to be someone from the crowd in Lowell. I’ll take an explanation from anyone. What in kayfabe did Dalton Castle and the Boys do to “deserve” to win these titles?
This match was just one big pile of stupid. The only bits of it that were good were when the Briscoes were in the ring with Dalton or Jay was trying to kill the Boys, but everything else that happened, piled on top of the moronic crowd completely killed this match.
And as the cherry on top of this pile of horse manure everyone seems to be trying to pass off as an ice cream sundae, we see Dalton and the Boys celebrating with their titles, but we keep cutting back to the ramp to see them being glared at angrily by… that’s right: Bully Ray. Not Jay Briscoe, who was the one angry at them going in, who they kicked in the groin in this match, and who was angry enough to throw a chair at the Boys and risk disqualification, but Bully “I can’t believe I tricked this mahk in the lizahd mask to let me do whatever I want” Ray.
There has not been one single Bully Ray match so far in his four months in ROH that I would not have enjoyed more if Bully Ray was swapped out for anyone else. Cheeseburger would have made all of those matches better. Even Vinny Marseglia would have made them easier for me to watch because he is a bit better in the ring, and although he is equally intolerable to me, Marseglia seems to be intolerable to much of the fanbase as well, while Bully’s crappiness is cheered because once upon a time he used to be a good tag team wrestler.

ROH TV TITLE MATCH: KUSHIDA(c) vs. Marty Scurll- 8/10
Props to KUSHIDA for schlepping his Best of the Super Juniors Tournament trophy all the way across the Pacific Ocean. It really puts over how proud he is of this accomplishment, even after regaining the IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title with the title shot he earned with that win.
When KUSHIDA does his wind-up punch Ian Riccaboni not only does the annoying “make pointless connection to local sports star” thing, but then has to immediately spout off the name of a second Japanese pitcher because I guess he thinks his cliché announcing is actually clever. Then, barely a minute later, we get first KUSHIDA doing the arm-trap head-stomps, then Marty Scurll doing the crucifix elbow strikes and not once does he mention Bryan Danielson.
Scurll started off working the head and KUSHIDA started off working over the arm but they both changed it up in the middle of the match and switched to the extremity the other had been working. Awesome match.

TIME IS WASTED SHOWING HIGHLIGHTS OF A WOMEN OF HONOR DARK MATCH- They are wasting time on a f*cking PPV plugging s*t that they put up for free on their YouTube channel. Delirious needs to face the facts, and the facts are that NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE ROH WOMEN’S DIVISION. They just don’t. This is the second time you’ve tried this. It didn’t work in 2013 and it’s going to work even worse now because there is now good women’s wrestling for free in WWE, and dedicated fans of women’s wrestling are going to pay for more established brands like SHIMMER and SHINE or hotter promotions like STARDOM, so even if some people do watch the pointless ten minute match you put up on YouTube every Wednesday, they’re still not going to PAY for Women of Honor matches, so why are you even having them? They’re just a drain on money and work-hours. I’m sorry to say it, but it’s the truth.
And even if people were willing to pay for the Women of Honor, the way they have been presented has ensured that no one will pay for them. They have a fifth-rate roster with next to nothing going on story-wise, and the few times they do have any sort of story ROH does a terrible job of communicating it to the larger ROH audience. For example, you know how Kelly Klein has been undefeated going back to her ROH debut in October 2015? Well she actually lost her first match two months ago. It was by count-out, to a woman named Karen Q who was making her ROH debut that night. That sounds like a major upset; like the sort of thing that should have been HUGE news. Well I just found out about it right now because despite happening over TWO MONTHS AGO, it was NEVER ONCE MENTIONED ON THE ROH WEBSITE. But yeah. You wasting my PPV time to show me clips of a completely random tag team match with four women competing for next to nothing because there is no title in the division is definitely going to make me buy that stupid “Women of Honor” t-shirt you’ve been plugging on every TV show for the past year.

ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine-
War Machine are now wearing furs and goofy helmets. They look very stupid. They look like they’re trying to do a caveman gimmick. What was wrong with the face-paint and limited body armor that they had before? That screamed “WARRIOR!” These things scream “COSTUME!”
Before the match can start Best Friends come out and Trent cuts a promo pointing out that they beat the Bucks in Philly last month (it aired a few weeks ago), and so they want a tag title shot, and if it’s okay with War Machine and the Young Bucks, they’d like to get their shot right now and also make this a tornado match. Okay…
Let me get this straight: Last month these guys got a win over the Bucks and they figure that entitles them to a shot that Bucks’ championship. So far so good. Then, rather than talk to ROH officials backstage after the show or just call up ROH management the next day (or at ANY POINT IN THE PAST MONTH) and make this argument directly to the people who actually have the power to make these decisions, they decided that the best course of action would be to wait to the PPV, fly themselves in with no guarantee of even having a match on the card, then wait until the title match was about to begin and just ask for a title shot, and hope that the Young Bucks (who are supposed to be heels!) or War Machine won’t refuse to have this match changed, even though they would be perfectly within their rights to do so. What a pair of morons!
It would have been SOOOOO simple to just f*cking announce on the website that Best Friends had been added to this match the Monday after their win aired and save yourself the promo time here as well as not make your babyfaces look like idiots and actually deliver the exact card you advertised. But no. We had to have surprise on our PPV because surprises are unpredictable, and as we all know, making things unpredictable is much more important than making things make sense. That’s why Vince Russo is such a universally acclaimed booker.
Anyway, now it’s a…

TORNADO TAG TEAM MATCH FOR THE ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLES: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends- 6/10
SPOTS. And a lot of them were very frustrating.
There has been a lot of talk recently about the idea of fans who come to the show to appreciate wrestling as an art form and fans who come to the shows due to having an emotional investment in the characters. If you want to appreciate wrestling as an art form then that’s great. I certainly do (although I do so from a story-driven, emotion-based perspective). A good chunk of what we got in this match, I think, is an example of a disturbing trend of wrestlers taking this in the wrong direction.
This match was full of spots like “everybody takes a turn doing their dive on to the progressively bigger pile” or “everybody takes turns missing a moonsault” or “everyone hits each other and we all fall down at the same time” or “everyone get in a circle go around the circle punching the person next to you (aside from Best Friends, who decide they have to do their comedy schtik in a title match).” This isn’t the first time I’ve seen all of these spots (they’ve been all too commonplace for the past few years) but this was the first time it hit me what was going on. Pro wrestling is like a book or a play or a movie: it’s supposed to tell a story, and the basic outline of that story should be obvious to any observer. The clarity of the storytelling is valued. Nuances (like a guy reversing the finisher that beat him in their last match) add on to this to make something already good become even greater but the important part is that everyone watching understands that one guy was working over the other guy’s arm all match). Where matches like this one go wrong is that they do spots like the ones I mentioned above that change what is going on from a movie or play into a dance recital, where the attention is on things like synchronicity and fluidity of movement the idea of making sure that those watching understand whatever story is being told- if there even is one- becomes secondary or even tertiary. As a result, rather than the focus being on the characters the actors are bringing to life via their performances, the focus is on “non-kayfabe” aspects like the impressive athletic abilities of the dancers and the moves the choreographer has planned out for them. In matches like these the focus is not on the story of which team will walk out with the tag titles and what twists and turns in the road will occur on their journey; it’s on the impressive athletic and artistic feats performed by Nick & Matt Massie, Greg Marasciulo, Dustin Howard, Todd Smith, & *INSERT RAY ROWE’S SHOOT NAME HERE* were, and what a cool match they laid out. They’re trying to make you smark out when they should be trying to make you mark out.



There is a guy in the front row wearing what appears to be a Vinny Marseglia t-shirt. That must have been a gift from a relative who didn’t know any better and he would have felt bad if he threw it out so he kept it. And today was laundry day. All of the clothing stores in a fifty-mile radius were closed. That’s the only possible way I can imagine someone wearing a Vinny Marseglia shirt in public. But even then he should have at least covered the logo over with duct tape. Have some dignity, dude.

ROH WORLD TITLE MATCH: Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Cody Rhodes- 6.75/10
The whole angle here is that is Cody is claiming that ROH Management is for some reason “afraid” of having a free agent as the world champion. Being a smart, logical, heel, BJ Whitmer asked “what would be so bad about that?” Ian Riccaboni could not give him a real answer, simply resorting to saying that Cody is a “coward” who used his lawyers to get him this title shot. If your announcers can’t even answer the most obvious question someone would ask about your angle, then your angle is not good enough.
Ian Riccaboni is talking about how impressive it is that Cody beat Jay Lethal in his ROH debut, but doesn’t seem to be able to remember the fact that CODY CHEATED, so he’s talking about this victory that to everyone watching was a shocking heel turn, as if it was completely clean. WHAT THE F*CK?! How do you not remember that?! They had a feud about it that just ended last month, and Ian himself called almost the entire thing!
Lots of stalling from Cody in the beginning of the match, and some more in the middle. Then a ref bump with TWO visual pinfalls for the babyface, attempted interference (we’ll get to that bit in a moment), a low blow… they did everything they could to convince me that Cody will be a kayfabe unworthy champion. But in doing so, they have succeeded in making me think that he won’t be a worthy champion outside of kayfabe as well. His attempts to be an early 1980s stalling heel who spends his time yacking with the crowd and overacting show me that Cody just doesn’t understand what Ring of Honor needs from its wrestlers, never mind its world champion. I just don’t have faith that his matches will be very good. The only guy on the indies who I’ve seen pull an 8/10 or higher (the level I expect of the world champion in a company like ROH, EVOLVE, or PWG, which touts itself so highly on its work-rate) out of Cody is Zack Sabre Jr.- who won’t be showing up in ROH anytime soon because he works for WWN, and both of those matches were pure babyface vs. babyface, which isn’t what we’ll be getting from Cody as ROH World Champion. Combine that with Delirious’ love for overbooking and other bullsh*t that goes against everything ROH is supposed to be, and the concept of an ROH World Title match isn’t a draw for me anymore. It’s one more thing they’ve done that makes spending money on the product less appealing. This show was a freakin’ PPV and, with th exception of one match- the only match featuring a guy who works full-time for a different promotion- the show was completely middling. If they can’t guarantee me a worthwhile show on a PPV why should I think they can on any other show? A lot of my favorite guys on the roster have left due to being misused and/or falling out of love with wrestling for ROH (but still loving it everywhere else), the storylines are bad, we’ve got tons of comedy all over the card, gimmick matches running rampant, no consistency, bad announcing, I don’t trust that I’ll get clean finishes in important matches anymore, and now I can’t even trust in the idea that a world title match will deliver anymore. What’s left?
I’m supposed to be an ROH fan, right? And then I see all of this stuff going wrong, and this f*cking crowd…
Cody Rhodes, a cheating heel who has been putting on sub-par matches all over the indies and who wouldn’t be getting a second look from anyone if not for father’s legacy and the fact that he was on WWE TV for a long time, is challenging a babyface Christopher Daniels, one of the founding fathers of ROH who has finally managed to win the ROH World Title. We get a ref bump, and Cody’s stablemate Marty Scurll comes out with a steel chair to interfere in the match… and the fans cheer.
And I screamed.
And I screamed and screamed and screamed.

WHAT THE F*CK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?! How the hell have things gone so wrong that someone shows up in a main event world title match to interfere on behalf of an overrated loser heel trying to put on 1980s wrestling matches against a babyface Christopher Daniels, and everyone in the crowd is cheering? What has ROH come to?

I’ve been following this promotion for almost a decade now (I first heard about it after the Age of the Fall debut, followed loosely until Take No Prisoners and really started to like it enough that I went back and read nearly every single thread on the entire original forum (loved those show reports!) to learn everything I could about it. After hearing people Rave about the Danielson vs. McGuinness main event of Rising Above 2008 I decided I had to see ROH for myself so I bought a ticket to my first show, which would be Injustice II. The day before the show was the airing of Rising Above so I bought that and, knowing the results of the matches already from having read the show reports the day it came out, I skipped right to the main event and was completely blown away. The next night I was blown away again, first by Bryan and Jerry Lynn, and then Nigel McGuinness and Tyler Black completely knocked my socks off, and from that point on I became a die-hard ROH fan. I went to every show I could in the New York/North Jersey area, plus I splurged for a train ticket from DC to Philly just to be at the second day of HDnet tapings. The first show I couldn’t make it to in my area was Glory By Honor VIII: The Final Countdown, featuring the two men who made me a fan of independent wrestling with the very first match I saw as the main event in what would be their last night as members of the ROH roster. Not being able to be there was disappointing, but it did push me to buy that event the moment it came out on DVD. That would be my first of several hundred. Between DVDs and VODs I have purchased, in one form or another, almost every single show ROH has ever put on. And I do mean almost every. The only ones I haven’t have been Honor Rising 2016: Night 2 this year’s Toronto show (which I was just waiting for a sale for), and this most recent weekend in Chicago/Collinsville. I have purchased a few compilations, about twenty Straight Shootin’ DVDs, every single “Secrets of the Ring” release, every single HD “Best Of” aside from vol. 2 (which I am interested in purchasing if anyone reading this has one to sell). And in just two short years- but mostly really in just a period of the past six months- they have pushed me to the point where I think I need to take a break. I’ll still follow the promotion from afar, but don’t expect any reviews of new shows from me for a while. I’ve still got some old stuff to watch and I will still contribute to discussion, but at this point, if I’m going to watch ROH, and I want it to be the ROH that I loved.



STUPID ANNOUNCER QUOTES:
1. During the post-match beat-down of Jay Lethal, Ian Riccaboni said that “we are seeing something reminiscent of Lexington and Concord unfold before our eyes.”
This has to be up there as one of the stupider comparisons I’ve ever heard an announcer make that didn’t involve misunderstanding/misrepresenting the story. In what possible way is two dudes trying to injure a third dude by throwing him into a beer keg reminiscent of Lexington and Concord? It’s amazing how the urge to pointlessly remind those watching at home where the show is taking place leads announcers to say the stupidest of things.
Big Red Machine
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:14 am
JigsawVs.Jason wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:56 am Well, that's it for me. I've been defending the current bookers way too long, that really is the lowest point in the history of the ROH belt, making a midcarder that gets no reaction and looks completely lost whenever he's in the ring champion just to get some cheap headlines.
I mean we all know ROH is not what it used to be, and I'm not even talking about the golden era, I'm talking about 2014-2015 where the product was really good and the roster was stacked. But these booking decisions are beyond acceptable!
I'm definitely going to take a break from ROH until Delirious is gone. That seems to be the only way to salvage this company.
I agree with you about the "lowest point in the history of the belt thing" but I have to admit that Cody gets a lot of reaction. A lot of people is talking about BITW, way more people than usual is downloading the show from XWT and in my website, the results from BITW 2017 have more visits than any other ROH report in the last 4 years. I don't like where they are going, but we have to asume that we are no longer ROH's target, we are not their objetive audience. They want to attrack more "casuals" fans and WWE/IW fans for growing. I think this is a bad move, but with this formula (getting The Hardys and Cody and make them champs) they sold 3.500 tickets at SCOH and they made the last PPV the show with most VOD buys. All they care about is money.
The Hardys and Bucks drew that house. Cody had nothing to do with it. Also, unlike the Cody, the Hardys had awesome matches.
Big Red Machine
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

Montana wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:01 am I'm really curious from all the people that dislikehate Cody, who should have beaten Daniels for the belt?? You realize like 3-4 main eventers just left, and they needed someone new to fill the gap. Only talent semi-ready for that was dalton castle and he just resigned.

If you told me I HAD to pick someone now, I'd tell you Marty Scurll... but why did the belt have to change hands now? If you can't build someone up in three months to be a world title challenger than you're a sh*t booker. There are plenty of guys who could have been at that level with proper booking, but they were all booked to sh*t to the point where most of them left (Page is the only one who stayed).
Big Red Machine
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

Montana wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:19 am Think you guys may be going a bit overboard with Cody as champ. Xavier wasn't a 6x WWE tag team champ, 2x IC champ... and it's not like Codys washed up/damaged good. Think it's a little early to grade him as champ. I'd imagine he'll have a solid heel run as champ, and hopefully get a face over in due time. Right now, with A LOT of ROH talent leaving, Cody could be the perfect transition, and just what ROH needs. Plus i assume from what i hear/see he's very professional, good locker room guy, no ego, not going to get in trouble, won't hold down talent. Why not put the ROH belt on Cody and put his face on poster/tv to help promote the product??
Because you can stick his face on the poster without putting the belt on him. The ROH brand is supposed to stand for excellent in-ring work and no bullsh*t. Cody's work has been sub-par and he's trying to be a 1980s heel so his matches are usually full of bullsh*t.
As for the Xavier comparison, I think it's quite unfair to Xavier. People forget that he usually did deliver as ROH World Champion. We were just supposed to be upset that he wasn't Dragon or Ki or AJ or Doug Williams. He wasn't an elite wrestler by any means, but he was MUCH better than Cody has been.
King of Indy Style
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by King of Indy Style »

Big Red Machine wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 pm
TORNADO TAG TEAM MATCH FOR THE ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLES: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends- 6/10
SPOTS. And a lot of them were very frustrating.
There has been a lot of talk recently about the idea of fans who come to the show to appreciate wrestling as an art form and fans who come to the shows due to having an emotional investment in the characters. If you want to appreciate wrestling as an art form then that’s great. I certainly do (although I do so from a story-driven, emotion-based perspective). A good chunk of what we got in this match, I think, is an example of a disturbing trend of wrestlers taking this in the wrong direction.
This match was full of spots like “everybody takes a turn doing their dive on to the progressively bigger pile” or “everybody takes turns missing a moonsault” or “everyone hits each other and we all fall down at the same time” or “everyone get in a circle go around the circle punching the person next to you (aside from Best Friends, who decide they have to do their comedy schtik in a title match).” This isn’t the first time I’ve seen all of these spots (they’ve been all too commonplace for the past few years) but this was the first time it hit me what was going on. Pro wrestling is like a book or a play or a movie: it’s supposed to tell a story, and the basic outline of that story should be obvious to any observer. The clarity of the storytelling is valued. Nuances (like a guy reversing the finisher that beat him in their last match) add on to this to make something already good become even greater but the important part is that everyone watching understands that one guy was working over the other guy’s arm all match). Where matches like this one go wrong is that they do spots like the ones I mentioned above that change what is going on from a movie or play into a dance recital, where the attention is on things like synchronicity and fluidity of movement the idea of making sure that those watching understand whatever story is being told- if there even is one- becomes secondary or even tertiary. As a result, rather than the focus being on the characters the actors are bringing to life via their performances, the focus is on “non-kayfabe” aspects like the impressive athletic abilities of the dancers and the moves the choreographer has planned out for them. In matches like these the focus is not on the story of which team will walk out with the tag titles and what twists and turns in the road will occur on their journey; it’s on the impressive athletic and artistic feats performed by Nick & Matt Massie, Greg Marasciulo, Dustin Howard, Todd Smith, & *INSERT RAY ROWE’S SHOOT NAME HERE* were, and what a cool match they laid out. They’re trying to make you smark out when they should be trying to make you mark out.
Were you REALLY expecting a Triple Threat Tornado Tag Team match WITH THE YOUNG BUCKS INVOLVED to tell some kind of story? Really? C'mon. This was far and away the match of the night, and most everyone else thought it was as well, because they weren't looking at this match looking for a cohesive story, they looked at it for what it was: A crazy ass multi-man Young Bucks Special Spotfest. That's like watching a Zack Sabre, Jr. match and getting mad that he was grappling and doing submissions the whole match, or watching a Jeff Cobb match and getting mad because he was doing a bunch of power moves, or, god forbid, watching WIll Ospreay vs. Ricochet and getting mad because they did a fuckton of flips. I do agree with what you said regarding most of the show, but this just sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.
Big Red Machine
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

King of Indy Style wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:56 pm
Big Red Machine wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 pm
TORNADO TAG TEAM MATCH FOR THE ROH WORLD TAG TEAM TITLES: The Young Bucks(c) vs. War Machine vs. Best Friends- 6/10
SPOTS. And a lot of them were very frustrating.
There has been a lot of talk recently about the idea of fans who come to the show to appreciate wrestling as an art form and fans who come to the shows due to having an emotional investment in the characters. If you want to appreciate wrestling as an art form then that’s great. I certainly do (although I do so from a story-driven, emotion-based perspective). A good chunk of what we got in this match, I think, is an example of a disturbing trend of wrestlers taking this in the wrong direction.
This match was full of spots like “everybody takes a turn doing their dive on to the progressively bigger pile” or “everybody takes turns missing a moonsault” or “everyone hits each other and we all fall down at the same time” or “everyone get in a circle go around the circle punching the person next to you (aside from Best Friends, who decide they have to do their comedy schtik in a title match).” This isn’t the first time I’ve seen all of these spots (they’ve been all too commonplace for the past few years) but this was the first time it hit me what was going on. Pro wrestling is like a book or a play or a movie: it’s supposed to tell a story, and the basic outline of that story should be obvious to any observer. The clarity of the storytelling is valued. Nuances (like a guy reversing the finisher that beat him in their last match) add on to this to make something already good become even greater but the important part is that everyone watching understands that one guy was working over the other guy’s arm all match). Where matches like this one go wrong is that they do spots like the ones I mentioned above that change what is going on from a movie or play into a dance recital, where the attention is on things like synchronicity and fluidity of movement the idea of making sure that those watching understand whatever story is being told- if there even is one- becomes secondary or even tertiary. As a result, rather than the focus being on the characters the actors are bringing to life via their performances, the focus is on “non-kayfabe” aspects like the impressive athletic abilities of the dancers and the moves the choreographer has planned out for them. In matches like these the focus is not on the story of which team will walk out with the tag titles and what twists and turns in the road will occur on their journey; it’s on the impressive athletic and artistic feats performed by Nick & Matt Massie, Greg Marasciulo, Dustin Howard, Todd Smith, & *INSERT RAY ROWE’S SHOOT NAME HERE* were, and what a cool match they laid out. They’re trying to make you smark out when they should be trying to make you mark out.
Were you REALLY expecting a Triple Threat Tornado Tag Team match WITH THE YOUNG BUCKS INVOLVED to tell some kind of story? Really? C'mon. This was far and away the match of the night, and most everyone else thought it was as well, because they weren't looking at this match looking for a cohesive story, they looked at it for what it was: A crazy ass multi-man Young Bucks Special Spotfest. That's like watching a Zack Sabre, Jr. match and getting mad that he was grappling and doing submissions the whole match, or watching a Jeff Cobb match and getting mad because he was doing a bunch of power moves, or, god forbid, watching WIll Ospreay vs. Ricochet and getting mad because they did a fuckton of flips. I do agree with what you said regarding most of the show, but this just sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.
I'd like them to at least avoid doing things that make me feel like what I'm watching is clearly staged.
famicommander
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by famicommander »

That's such a weird thing to say.

Every time someone runs an opponent into the ropes it should be pretty clear that what you're watching is staged. What's the thought process?

"This guy is pulling me by the arm. I had better run over there, stop, turn around, bounce off, then run as fast as I can directly into a clothesline!"
Big Red Machine
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Re: ROH Best in the World 2017 Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

famicommander wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:50 pm That's such a weird thing to say.

Every time someone runs an opponent into the ropes it should be pretty clear that what you're watching is staged. What's the thought process?

"This guy is pulling me by the arm. I had better run over there, stop, turn around, bounce off, then run as fast as I can directly into a clothesline!"
There are some things that have been so internalized in wrestling that we just accept them, and what you just described is the most classic example. I accept the idea of an Irish Whip as part of pro wrestling. The stuff they did here felt more like they were doing spots because they knew those spots would pop the crowd rather than because they were trying to win a wresting match. I would have been a lot happier if they didn't have everyone doing the exact same spot all in a row.
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