Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

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supersonic
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Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by supersonic »

In recent months, there have been talents booked by ROH that have gotten pushback from certain consumers. Such talents that immediately come to mind include Bull Dempsey, the Spirit Squad, and Ken Anderson. One can go back to the Pearce and Cornette eras to remember such gems as the Headbangers, Bison Smith, and Brutal Bob Evans. Even Matt Hardy's full-time run from 2012 to 2014 can arguably be included, in which he has admitted to purposefully phoning in his performances for heel heat.

There was once a time when ROH fans prided themselves in generally rejecting these types of low-rent talents. A carryover from the original "bloodthirsty" ECW fan base, the "ROHbots" were loud, clear, and abrasive when being fed shit sandwiches that didn't belong on the menu.

When Jeff Hardy was booked for the inaugural Death Before Dishonor in a blatant move to move tickets and grab casuals, those in attendance made him unwelcome immediately as soon as he came through the curtain. That's before his dreadful match started and stunk up the Rexplex. Such disdain was well-deserved as he had been released from WWE for being a junkie to the degree that it negatively impacted his performances. Unlike Eddie Guerrero a year and a half earlier, Jeff also had done nothing prior to Death Before Dishonor to display that he had been reinvigorated. Jeff being booked in ROH, while a far from perfect product, was a slap in the face to the company's identity, and the fans let the company know it.

When Konnan was brought in for similar reasons at Final Battle 2002 and Revenge on the Prophecy, he got similar treatment. Like Jeff months later, he stunk up the joint and was rightfully rejected by the audience. Bringing in a former member of the nWo Wolfpac that hasn't delivered a quality match in years didn't fit the audience that ROH targeted.

In April 2005, ROH worked with NJPW for the first time ever, hosting a one night only Best of American Super Juniors Tournament event. The tourney was quite stacked - James Gibson, Matt Sydal, Alex Shelley, Brian Kendrick, Roderick Strong, Bryan Danielson, and Rocky Romero under the legendary Black Tiger were all involved. The matchup possibilities were endless.

Instead, the winner would be a masked Kendo Ka Shin, using the name of Dragon Soldier B. His performance throughout the night was plodding, culminating in a final against Black Tiger that got treated by the crowd like the first Goldberg vs. Brock Lesnar encounter a year earlier. The post-match was no celebration, as the fans told Ka Shin "Don't come back!"

Is it possible that these types of fans, the kind that are very loud and demanding with high expectations, providing those in charge with somewhat of a checks and balances system, could ever become a significant part of ROH's customer base again? Do these types of fans even exist?

I'd argue that these fans do exist in PWG and WWE. For the former, look at Curt Hawkins never getting booked again after a forgettable performance against AJ Styles. For the latter, we hear the various chants thrown at Roman Reigns. We've seen stale talents being told by the fans to retire. At times the WWE audience gets so bored or frustrated that they randomly break out in CM Punk chants as a deliberate rejection of the product being fed to them.

I hope one day these types of fans return to ROH. Without them, the ROH that built up such a huge reputation wouldn't have come to be such a halcyon era. They made sure that ROH avoided the hacks that simply put, don't belong or deserve to be in the ring that was once home to Hall of Famers such as Styles, CM Punk, and Bryan Danielson.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by AlexROH »

Awesome post! I totally agree with you. ROH should have booed Bull Dempsey out of the fucking building when he debuted un 2016.

As I said when he was announced, I hope ROH's fans in Hopkins boo Anderson next Week. We need this if we really want this to be just a ONO thing. If Anderson is booed Hard, while playing the face character, Delirious will see that we aren't casauls and that we want to see great proffesional wrestling.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by BurningHammer »

I think fans are far more open to wrestlers giving wrestlers a chance now, especially considering how others have been a success outisde of their other original environments where necessarily they weren't allowed to themselves ala Jamie Noble/James Gibson. Also ROH is looking for a wider audience it's starting to grow in other markets and having that name for a short period of time can get you people watching and then you hope they get hooked and keep watching. It might be ineteresting to see how many fans have stuck around with ROH through having the Hardy's and Bubba, if they are noticing stronger numbers alround then they are doing what's best for business, despite what others may think.

To me a wrestler really should only be booed out of the building if his performance just flat out stinks (honestly even indie guys get let off far more then should do) and it shows that he isn't made of the stuff that partculer company looks for, other that I have no problem with anyone generally getting a chance to see what they can do. Honestly what if say Anderson for example steels the show with Marty (I doubt he will but say he does) just becuase he is Anderson he should be booed and not let back into ROH to me that's just backward thinking as you could be taking a talent away from ROH that should be booked more.

What is interesting is the fact that there many instances in the past even that came under screwtiny and wasn't welcomed despite someone like Gabe knowing what his audience considering where ROH was at the time.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Montana »

I'll play devil's advocate. I think it's a different day and time than the earlier years of ROH. Before they didn't have a television / PPV deal. Before they did have every other major wrestler company in the world, raiding talent. They now need to put regular talent on contract.

Now, i'm about a year behind on DVDs, but I have to believe those guys you mentioned were more special appearances. Bull Dempsey was coming off a decent run in NXT, and spending time in one of the best training opportunities there is. I think it'd be smart for ROH/TNA to at least consider any talent let go by WWE developmental. Ken Anderson...probably a little past his prime, but a recognizable star. Could have been a huge star in the business. I'd want to see him in, at a live show but not sure how much value as a full time star. I didn't know ROH brought in spirit squad...and i dont know which members, but i assume it was Mikey / Kenny. Mikey had a solid run a few years back. Kenny i see as having a lot of potential, and never really living up to it. My biggest issue with it, would be the spirit squad gimmick.

Would it really be fair to completely boo someone like Bull out of the building? Without giving him a shot? Now, if they come in, and completely can't hang, and they get brought back.... Well, that's a problem.

I think one could argue that maybe ROH isn't the absolute best company to be signed to, to get to WWE. I think before when they could be more selective, now they have some competition with Evolve, as that stepping stone company. Not to mention places like Lucha Underground, NXT, absorbing some of that available talent as well. Impact is pulling in a lot of ROH talent as well.

Long story short.... i'm OK with it, as long as it's a special appearance, and helps get someone on the roster over. I don't think it's the end of the world.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by supersonic »

Anderson is a HUGE step down from Bully Ray, one of the best heels of the 2010s, and the Hardys, who were white-hot after just reinventing themselves. Anderson has done fuck all in the past few years to be considered worthy.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Brada »

DAMN good post Sonic, DAMN good.

Agree on all fronts. Ken Anderson being booked is complete crap. The ROH loyalists need to have their voice heard.

I would go a step further. Rather than boo him relentlessly, be completely silent. Hell, turn their backs to the action. Throw up newspapers as if they don't give a damn.

I do have a feeling the fans will take a massive dump all over that match.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by supersonic »

Go for the CM Punk chants instead.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

I think the Cornette Era is responsible for the exodus of Sapolsky Era fans. It caused me to leave for a while. Attendance was down. The majority of those fans I don't think came back. I don't think there is many of us from the original forum that post here.

Sadly though, I don't think those days will be back. While I loathe the corporate entity in any form, its purchase was necessary for ROH to survive and thrive. Thus a new breed of ROH fan was born. I used to work with a guy who watched ROH with his kids and didn't know jack shit about the early stuff.

This newer breed of ROH fan has been conditioned by SBG to accept the bookings of heels and faces. Heels preety much cheat no matter what to win in the big matches. In the Sapolsky Era that wasn't an option. The best example I can use is when Nigel was the Pure Champion. Nigel used the rules under that title as a successful heel to make it such an interesting presentation. God damn you wanted to see him lose the title, but by the end of the match he retained and looked like the smartest mother fucker in the building. That was an exceptional and creative way to capture heel heat. Big Red Machine likes to point out lazy booking by Delirious and I agree with him 100% of the time. This is the antithesis of lazy booking and could still go over with the current fan of ROH.

So which begs the question: Do we wish ROH was put to rest years ago and romanctize about a bygone era? Or do we dig our heels in and wait for the product to return to a former glory it most likely will never return to?
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Wilson »

This steps too uncomfortably close to fans chanting to get themselves over.

I really doubt modern ROH fans are going to demand the Ken Andersons or the Spirit Squads of the ex-television talent pool go away anytime soon. The product is so much more casual than it used to be. The company is becoming more and more a nostalgia play, so these talents being brought in is so much less the hypocrisy than when ROH brought in lazy workers at a time when workrate was their USP.

To communicate most effectively with a company like Sinclair, the best thing to do is to constantly address these problems on social media. (Although it would be kind of fun to see a reaction similar Jeff's at Death Before Dishonor in today's outfit. I can't even imagine how the company would respond.)
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by King of Indy Style »

I would LOVE to see this come back, just to show that people don't want shitty ex-WWE midcarders and ex-wwe tag teams with shitty gimmicks taking up a spot actual roster members could use, but I don't see it coming back because people always pop for a surprise return/debut, and some people just like to accept mediocrity.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Mike Adamle »

I hope Anderson has a good showing. The fact you guys want people to shit on this before it's even happened is telling.
BlackLesnar wrote:Seriously though, I completely agree with Mike.
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mike Adamle wrote:Should've named this show "Masters of the Roll Up"
This is the best post ever by Adamle. I laughed my ass off at this.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Mike Adamle »

Also, a lot of you that want Anderson to fail are the same people that want Scurll to stay... so you want to shit on a match involving Scurll just because of his opponent? What if Scurll can bring the best out of his opponent and they both have a strong showing? Will you still be shitting on it?
BlackLesnar wrote:Seriously though, I completely agree with Mike.
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mike Adamle wrote:Should've named this show "Masters of the Roll Up"
This is the best post ever by Adamle. I laughed my ass off at this.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

Mike Adamle wrote:Also, a lot of you that want Anderson to fail are the same people that want Scurll to stay... so you want to shit on a match involving Scurll just because of his opponent? What if Scurll can bring the best out of his opponent and they both have a strong showing? Will you still be shitting on it?
Uh, unless I am mistaken I don't believe anyone has said directly they want Anderson to fail. Its more symptomatic of a larger issue of Scrull being fed a shitload of opposition that is nothing more than red herring.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Thelone »

Anderson has been so hot on the indy scene since he got shitcanned by TNA that I completely forgot he even existed, but yeah sure let's pretend he can bring something to the table because standards are just absurdly low nowadays. I mean, people seem to be fine with Cod Erodes getting a main event push, that's how low the bar is in 2017.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by supersonic »

No fucking way this would be tolerated a dozen years ago.

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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

supersonic wrote:No fucking way this would be tolerated a dozen years ago.

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It shouldn't be tolerated now.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

supersonic wrote:Anderson is a HUGE step down from Bully Ray, one of the best heels of the 2010s, and the Hardys, who were white-hot after just reinventing themselves. Anderson has done fuck all in the past few years to be considered worthy.
I do not understand why people thought Bully Ray was such a good heel. His promos were bad and his matches sucked.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

Oh boy! Lots of interesting stuff here!

I think there is a definite sense nowadays that fans want to know that they are not just being heard, but being listened to. That’s one thing that PWG has done so well. Roman Reigns is the most obvious example of this, where even fans who think Roman is decent or even pretty good in the ring (I fall into the latter group) will boo him out of the building because there are better guys on the roster who we would like to see in that role more, but we know that Roman is the corporate pick and thus his ascension is fait accompli, with no one else (or, perhaps more importantly, no one else that we like) having gotten a fair chance at that spot.
Of course, WWE is far from the only place where this has gone on. How many times has TNA crowed about how they were “putting more focus on the X-Division/Knockouts” only to continue to do the same exact thing they were doing before? One of the many miracles of TNA is how many TNA fans have swallowed that bullsh*t so many times.
In ROH, I think this takes a slightly different form. ROH has always been pushed on its workrate, so fans expect a certain level of ability. When a guy gets brought in there is natural pushback if he isn’t someone with a proven- or at least perceived- ability to have “ROH-quality” matches. That sort of thing is unavoidable, and is something that everyone will have to live with. As someone who remembers the older days of the promotion (a strange thing to say considering that I only became a fan in early 2008, but I managed to read most of the archives of the old forum), I tend to see this behavior as people trying to “protect the integrity of the product” or whatever. I see it as a well-meaning defense of what ROH should be rather than baseless contrarianism or an anti-WWE/TNA bias. In most cases, though, I don’t agree with it. I believe that pretty much everyone should be given a shot. But when they had their match and it sucked and fans chanted “DON’T COME BACK!” at Jeff Hardy and Krazy K and Dragon Soldier B and Gabe listened and they were never brought back. A guy like Gibson, on the other hand, used his opportunity to win over any doubters he may have had and earned a spot on the roster.
The reason this has come up as an issue more and more recently (although, in hindsight, it has kind of been brewing since Pearce left) is that we have started to see more and more guys who were given that first chance but failed brought back. In hindsight, Cornette’s continued use of guys like The Headbangers or his OVW dorks or, to a certain point, Haas & Benjamin, was an ill-conceived and ill-fated attempt to reeducate the fans to a 1970s/1980s southern-style product, and he felt that these were guys that he could trust to work that style in a way he thought would be effective, and, in a few years, fans would come to appreciate it. That didn’t happen.
Although these were not necessarily his sins, they are important to remember because they feed into the beginning of the Delirious Era, where there have been many workers who have been brought in time and again despite having put on extremely poor performances. Bull James is the most egregious example, as there is no way that either Gabe or Pearce would EVER have brought someone back after they were given fifteen minutes against the ROH World Champion and responded by sh*tting the bed. Cliff Compton did similar and yet kept being brought back. Brutal Bob could arguably be stuck in this category as well, as could Prince Nana as a manager. Somehow, Vinny Marseglia has a roster spot despite no one having ever expressed a desire to see him, and most people having expressed a desire not to. We say we don’t want to see these guys ever again and yet they keep being brought back, so it feels like we’re not being listened to.
This problem is unfortunately being compounded by guys who, while they put on acceptable or even good performances, are not guys who generate any excitement and thus fans get upset when they are constantly brought back (Stevie Richards is the best example here). Thus, when fans see a name like Ken Anderson or Sonjay Dutt or Bully Ray announced, they get annoyed because these are not guys that anyone is clamoring to see and yet they keep getting brought in. Not only are we not being listened to when we say we don’t want to see Bull Dempsey ever again, but instead they’re responding by bringing in even more Bull Dempseys (I’m not saying any of those guys are as bad as Bull is in the ring, but they bring the same WWE/TNA cast-off feeling with them).

Another compounding factor is the presentation in ROH. WWE’s attitude has always been “we’re doing what we want and we’re just going to ignore the fact that you don’t like it… unless we decide to do something you want, in which case we’ll take credit for listening to you.” TNA’s has always been to claim that they’re doing exactly what the fans want while just doing what they want to do instead. ROH’s, up until rather recently, has always been more open. Under Pearce and especially under Gabe it felt like the attitude was “this is what we are doing. We really hope you enjoy it. Please let us know if you don’t.” While Cornette’s attitude was “this is what I’m doing, dammit, so learn to like it” he always felt very open about explaining why he was doing what he was doing. Even if you thought he was dead wrong in his conviction that his way would work in the end, he was at least willing to help you understand why he felt that it would.
Under Delirious there hasn’t been any sort of communication between the fans and the office, other than the occasional comment from Joe Koff, who appears to either be unaware of the way fans feel or completely unwilling to acknowledge it in any way. In and of itself this sort of thing is really to be expected, and ROH has gotten quite lucky that it has had bookers who felt like they were willing to engage with the fans so readily either to take their pulse or to at least explain their own point of view. What makes this so problematic, however, has been the shift in the presentation of the product, especially on the television.
It used to be that when a guy was brought in the first few times the announcers would be right up front that this was a try-out. They’d frame it in a kayfabe way, of course, but everyone understood that if this guy put on a good performance he would be brought back the next time ROH was in that region. If he didn’t then we probably wouldn’t see him against for a couple of years. What we currently get, however, is that someone shows up on TV and we’re told how great they are and how much potential they have and then they have a dull, short match on TV and the announcers gush all over them as if they had just done something wonderful. We are told over and over again that Jay Lethal is definitely the greatest ROH World Champion of all time, despite the fact that I have not seen any single person who isn’t an ROH announcer express that opinion. A guy “took the champion to the limit” in a fifteen minute match when we’ve seen that champion go twice as long. Someone got a “career-changing win” even though they’re still in the same spot six months later. The presentation of the product feels like it has shifted from a more open, honest product to a WWE-style “we will say whatever suits are purposes at this moment and we expect you to take it as fact.” They write articles on the website about how great it is that Marty Scurll is defending the TV Title against “international stars” like Sonjay Dutt and Ken Anderson” but most fans are saying “No. That’s not great. I want to see Marty have a real feud.” ROH has gone from a company that feels like it listens to its fans to a company that feels like it expects its fans to listen to it.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

Montana wrote:I'll play devil's advocate. I think it's a different day and time than the earlier years of ROH. Before they didn't have a television / PPV deal. Before they did have every other major wrestler company in the world, raiding talent. They now need to put regular talent on contract.
The issue isn't putting talent under contract. It's spending money to bring in (which usually means they are at least looking at someone) and, in other cases even sign sub-par talent rather than making any effort, either creatively or financially, to go after and/or keep the next set of up-and-coming indy guys under contract.
Montana wrote: Now, i'm about a year behind on DVDs, but I have to believe those guys you mentioned were more special appearances. Bull Dempsey was coming off a decent run in NXT, and spending time in one of the best training opportunities there is. I think it'd be smart for ROH/TNA to at least consider any talent let go by WWE developmental. Ken Anderson...probably a little past his prime, but a recognizable star. Could have been a huge star in the business. I'd want to see him in, at a live show but not sure how much value as a full time star. I didn't know ROH brought in spirit squad...and i dont know which members, but i assume it was Mikey / Kenny. Mikey had a solid run a few years back. Kenny i see as having a lot of potential, and never really living up to it. My biggest issue with it, would be the spirit squad gimmick.
I thought Mondo's run was terrible and that he is possibly the most annoying human being to have ever set foot in ROH, and that includes Johnny Fairplay... and Mondo was supposed to be a babyface.
Montana wrote: Would it really be fair to completely boo someone like Bull out of the building? Without giving him a shot? Now, if they come in, and completely can't hang, and they get brought back.... Well, that's a problem.
This is exactly what happened. He had an atrocious match with Cole and then an eve worse match teaming with Corino against Whitmer and Martinez. Then they brought back for the Philly tapings a few weeks afterwards and even stuck him in an angle with Silas Young and BCB, which resulted in him being brought back for a third show at the next set of TV tapings.
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:I think the Cornette Era is responsible for the exodus of Sapolsky Era fans. It caused me to leave for a while. Attendance was down. The majority of those fans I don't think came back. I don't think there is many of us from the original forum that post here.

Sadly though, I don't think those days will be back. While I loathe the corporate entity in any form, its purchase was necessary for ROH to survive and thrive. Thus a new breed of ROH fan was born. I used to work with a guy who watched ROH with his kids and didn't know jack shit about the early stuff.

This newer breed of ROH fan has been conditioned by SBG to accept the bookings of heels and faces. Heels preety much cheat no matter what to win in the big matches. In the Sapolsky Era that wasn't an option. The best example I can use is when Nigel was the Pure Champion. Nigel used the rules under that title as a successful heel to make it such an interesting presentation. God damn you wanted to see him lose the title, but by the end of the match he retained and looked like the smartest mother fucker in the building. That was an exceptional and creative way to capture heel heat. Big Red Machine likes to point out lazy booking by Delirious and I agree with him 100% of the time. This is the antithesis of lazy booking and could still go over with the current fan of ROH.
I don’t think that SBG is in any way to blame. So far as we know, they just write the checks. The newer breed of fan has been conditioned to accept an overabundance of cheating and bullsh*t finishes by WWE (and in many cases probably TNA as well). Delirious’ major mistake has been to go along with that rather than take advantage of what should be a major opportunity to show why ROH is different. To make sure that anyone who tunes in knows that we’re not going to give you a bullsh*t finish because we don’t want either guy to lose, but we still booked the match anyway to trick you into watching it with the false promise that you’d get to find out who the better wrestler is at the end.
And that line of thinking is all completely independent of ROH’s history as the place where we don’t screw our fans on finishes, because a first-time viewer probably wouldn’t know about that aspect of ROH (although the name does seem very weird if you don’t have it). To long-term fans, the preponderance of cheating and bullsh*t finishes is a signal that ROH is abandoning what we loved about it. The thing that made it different. It is ROH making the exact same mistake that TNA did in its quest to aggressively capture WWE’s audience: They became WWE and not an alternative to it.
As has been said here before, ROH’s current financial success is despite the booking, not because of it. ROH crowds have always risen steadily in every market so long as they put on decent shows each time, and that was before they had TV (and if the market didn’t grow, they stopped going there after a few tries). Even during the Cornette Era I think most of the poor numbers were places they were trying to run for the first time rather than old markets going down like we’ve been alarmingly seeing recently in Chicago, plus some big drop-offs in places like Atlanta, Hopkins, and San Antonio, which had seemed like up-and-coming ROH markets. Many markets would probably be going up right now if they were given shows that were booked in such a way as to feel like the shows they were watching mattered. People are going to most shows nowadays to enjoy seeing the matches. They used to be coming in not just for the action but in order to see what would happen.

And, for the record, I don’t even mind cheating that much, as long as it is followed up on in a responsible way. If The Addiction keep screwing reDRagon out of the tag titles because Chris Sabin keeps interfering then that’s fine (so long as you keep those finishes out of the main event)… if you end the feud by booking a cage match so that Sabin can’t interfere (in other words: as long as we get a payoff where the better team does actually win in the end). Wrestling is supposed to be a kayfabe combat sport, so if someone cheats, it should be in the best interests of the company to book a rematch, and because this is pro wrestling, we can set up stipulations to prevent the controversy that marred the previous match from happening a second time.
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote: So which begs the question: Do we wish ROH was put to rest years ago and romanctize about a bygone era? Or do we dig our heels in and wait for the product to return to a former glory it most likely will never return to?
This is quite the difficult question. Personally, I think the answer is to continue following peripherally until things get better, because a version of that old product does exist nowadays. It’s called EVOLVE.
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