Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

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WHG
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by WHG »

Just my opinion, but EVOLVE is equally far from being a version of what ROH was as SBG's product is...just in different ways. I think people continually give Gabe a free pass because he had a few great years more than a decade ago. He's a terrible promoter and his booking has been hit or miss at best. People here would have murdered Delirious for the Thatcher title reign. He's also failed to capitalize on both the initial FloSlam buzz, two years worth of WWE support, and...say what you will...has fallen into the same trap ROH has of "drawing" (although that's kind of a stretch with WWN) with recent departures from other promotions rather than really building homegrown stars.

And don't credit him for Riddle. Everyone knew he was talented and he's admitted he was going to work ROH until the WWE told him to go to Evolve instead.
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supersonic
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by supersonic »

Evolve cannot touch peak ROH yet. That requires workrate, feuds, rivalries, title reigns, cross-promotional relationships, and roster bookings to all deliver.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

WHG wrote:Just my opinion, but EVOLVE is equally far from being a version of what ROH was as SBG's product is...just in different ways. I think people continually give Gabe a free pass because he had a few great years more than a decade ago. He's a terrible promoter and his booking has been hit or miss at best. People here would have murdered Delirious for the Thatcher title reign. He's also failed to capitalize on both the initial FloSlam buzz, two years worth of WWE support, and...say what you will...has fallen into the same trap ROH has of "drawing" (although that's kind of a stretch with WWN) with recent departures from other promotions rather than really building homegrown stars.
No one is saying that Gabe is a good promoter. No on has ever said that, because everyone knows that he's not. If you've heard Gabe talk about the way ROH expanded, he'll freely admit that most of it was Cary pushing him to do so (even as far back as going to Chicago). What we see now in EVOLVE looks exactly like what ROH would have looked like without Cary pressing Gabe to expand and they just kept running Philly, Boston, and NYC.

As for the booking, I couldn't disagree more. Thatcher's Title reign certainly wasn't good, but at least Gabe tried to do something with it via the Catchpoint feud. I definitely think it went on too long (although Thatcher missing about four shows towards the end due to a concussion probably had something to do with that), but I don't think it was terrible by any stretch of the imagination. But as I said, at least Gabe tried to do something interesting with it. It just didn't catch on as well as he would have hoped (I think Thatcher didn't do a good job of getting across exactly why he was "giving up" the title when he first did so and then his unwillingness to speak up for himself when Catchpoint would insult him and call him a coward throughout most of the spring really hurt the angle), but compare that to Jay Lethal's and it feels like Thatcher did a lot more. Thatcher appeared on 25 shows while champion (24 EVOLVE shows and 1 WWN Live Supershow) and defended the title on nineteen of those shows. Lethal appeared as the ROH World Champion on 46 shows, and yet he only defended the title 17 times on those shows. You'd think that Lethal would have done a lot more than Thatcher as champion but I can only remember Lethal having three real "programs"- the one against Roddy, which didn't even really have a conclusions, the one with Cabana, and the one with Cole. Everything else (including AJ Styles and Jay Briscoe) was just a one-off. Thatcher, on the other hand, feuded with Riddle, Gulak (and the rest of Catchpoint), and Zack, plus a lot of other title defenses in which the challenger was actually built up going into the match and it didn't seem like a foregone conclusion at all that he would retain.
As for EVOLVE not having any home-grown stars recently, I think Tracy Williams, Fred Yehi, and Timothy Thatcher all qualify, plus Ethan Page is getting his highest-profile exposure in the US. As for Riddle... yes, he is talented as hell, but so are a lot of guys and the difference between ROH and EVOLVE recently has been that EVOLVE has a booker that knows how to help talented guys get over while ROH doesn't.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

supersonic wrote:Evolve cannot touch peak ROH yet. That requires workrate, feuds, rivalries, title reigns, cross-promotional relationships, and roster bookings to all deliver.
I don't think cross-promotional relationships are necessary. They certainly help, but they're not a must-have.
Mr. Mojo Risin
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

WHG wrote:Just my opinion, but EVOLVE is equally far from being a version of what ROH was as SBG's product is...just in different ways. I think people continually give Gabe a free pass because he had a few great years more than a decade ago. He's a terrible promoter and his booking has been hit or miss at best. People here would have murdered Delirious for the Thatcher title reign. He's also failed to capitalize on both the initial FloSlam buzz, two years worth of WWE support, and...say what you will...has fallen into the same trap ROH has of "drawing" (although that's kind of a stretch with WWN) with recent departures from other promotions rather than really building homegrown stars.

And don't credit him for Riddle. Everyone knew he was talented and he's admitted he was going to work ROH until the WWE told him to go to Evolve instead.
Sorry BRM I have to agree with this.

Ethan Page may be getting a high profile shot for Evolve, but I don't see it man. He does nothing for me.

Gabe does get a free pass. I don't know man, I just can't get into Evolve. Something is just lacking for me personally. I think that Cary really knew how to handle Gabe with direction and he's not getting it. Evolve is what it is. I don't think it will ever grow beyond what it is right now. The WWE relationship is smoke and mirrors at this point. Triple H poached the guys he wanted and that was it.

In The Golden Years Gabe was winning Booker Of The Year for The Wrestling Observer. Rightfully so. I am trying to figure out how Gabe was able to take that group of guys and be canonized for his work, but Evolve guys aren't getting the same type of recognition. I am still waiting for ACH to take the next step there under Gabe. Keith Lee? He was riding a wave of momentum before Evolve. Riddle is a once in a decade phenomenon that would succeed in any place. What is Gabe doing different now with Evolve, despite what the core group of fans think, that he has been unable to capture the same success he had with ROH?
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AlexROH
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by AlexROH »

EVOLVE is a good promotion, but I'm with Mojo here, I don't see it growing in the future. They don't draw well and their shows are just for a very little part of the audience (people like me), and that's not how you make your company grow. He has a lot of great talent and their shows always have great matches, but I don't see it as a evolved ROH.

Ethan Page? He hasn't improved, he's doing the same heel work he did in AAW two years ago when Josh Alexander got injured. It isn't something new, it's just the same thing but with more exposure.
King of Indy Style
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by King of Indy Style »

Here's an interesting question: Do you think that the WWE connection helps or hinders EVOLVE? I can see both sides of the issue, but I'm curious what others think.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
WHG wrote:Just my opinion, but EVOLVE is equally far from being a version of what ROH was as SBG's product is...just in different ways. I think people continually give Gabe a free pass because he had a few great years more than a decade ago. He's a terrible promoter and his booking has been hit or miss at best. People here would have murdered Delirious for the Thatcher title reign. He's also failed to capitalize on both the initial FloSlam buzz, two years worth of WWE support, and...say what you will...has fallen into the same trap ROH has of "drawing" (although that's kind of a stretch with WWN) with recent departures from other promotions rather than really building homegrown stars.

And don't credit him for Riddle. Everyone knew he was talented and he's admitted he was going to work ROH until the WWE told him to go to Evolve instead.
Sorry BRM I have to agree with this.

Ethan Page may be getting a high profile shot for Evolve, but I don't see it man. He does nothing for me.

Gabe does get a free pass. I don't know man, I just can't get into Evolve. Something is just lacking for me personally. I think that Cary really knew how to handle Gabe with direction and he's not getting it. Evolve is what it is. I don't think it will ever grow beyond what it is right now. The WWE relationship is smoke and mirrors at this point. Triple H poached the guys he wanted and that was it.

In The Golden Years Gabe was winning Booker Of The Year for The Wrestling Observer. Rightfully so. I am trying to figure out how Gabe was able to take that group of guys and be canonized for his work, but Evolve guys aren't getting the same type of recognition. I am still waiting for ACH to take the next step there under Gabe. Keith Lee? He was riding a wave of momentum before Evolve. Riddle is a once in a decade phenomenon that would succeed in any place. What is Gabe doing different now with Evolve, despite what the core group of fans think, that he has been unable to capture the same success he had with ROH?
I definitely agree with the assessment that Gabe works best with someone like Cary who knows how to handle him. Cary pushing for new markets made Gabe have to up his game because Gabe understands the importance of making a good first impression.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that EVOLVE is as good as ROH's golden years (which I would actually push out to at least 2008, and with a bit of a down year in 2009 creatively, I thought 2010 and most of 2011 were quite excellent as well). What I am saying is that EVOLVE is the place where the philosophy is most similar to that. I do happen to think that it's the best booked product out there, but that's because there are a lot of little intricacies in the product that I enjoy. I love the way the shows flow to minimize downtime, the intricate segments that get across about eight things in one segment, and the feeling that anyone can win any match, and the way Gabe keeps his heels from going too far over the moral event horizon so that it doesn't seem weird that someone would kayfabe cheer for them (Page being the lone exception, which just makes him stand out all the more).
EVOLVE is a different animal from the old ROH. It has gravitated a lot more towards the "real sports" feel, which I like (though as long as there is some illusion put up that the company is making an effort to be fair- like pre-2016 ROH would- then that's good enough for me), but the philosophies that helped make the old ROH successful are alive and well in EVOLVE right now (and really not too many other places in the world), including the sort of openness with the fans. It feels like Gabe is listening. Delirious isn't.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote:EVOLVE is a good promotion, but I'm with Mojo here, I don't see it growing in the future. They don't draw well and their shows are just for a very little part of the audience (people like me), and that's not how you make your company grow. He has a lot of great talent and their shows always have great matches, but I don't see it as a evolved ROH.
Don't get me wrong: I don't see it growing much, either. I can see their average attendance going up by maybe twenty-five fans a year, every year, into perpetuity. But as PWG has proven, if you can cover your costs with what you're selling (and that includes FloSlam money here, too) then that's perfectly fine to keep you in business.
AlexROH wrote: Ethan Page? He hasn't improved, he's doing the same heel work he did in AAW two years ago when Josh Alexander got injured. It isn't something new, it's just the same thing but with more exposure.
Which is what I said. He's getting his highest-profile exposure so far.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by Big Red Machine »

King of Indy Style wrote:Here's an interesting question: Do you think that the WWE connection helps or hinders EVOLVE? I can see both sides of the issue, but I'm curious what others think.
I can't see how it hurts. Maybe it chases away some people who are so vehemently anti-WWE that they won't touch anything WWE has touched, but those people are few and far between.
The Dragon Saga
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Re: Something I Miss About the Sapolsky Era Fans

Post by The Dragon Saga »

EVOLVE is barely a ripple in the ocean that is the world of professional wrestling. If anyone thinks different, their clueless.

ROH, booking issues asides, has done more as a business this year thus far than EVOLVE has done in probably its entire existence.
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