What ROH can do to keep their talents?

This is the place to discuss all the latest ROH news, announcements and events!
Post Reply
Seosi
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:51 pm

What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Seosi »

So, some ROH talents left the company this couple of months. What ROH can do too keep them in the company?
@seositw
User avatar
Wilson
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:05 am
Location: US Northeast

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Wilson »

With the executive positions remaining as they are now, I honestly don't know--nor do I have faith.
User avatar
Brada
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:05 am
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth, Texas
Contact:

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Brada »

Depends on who you are referring to?

It depends on the talent. For example, Lio Rush? Nothing. I just think its natural progression for him to make a move that will springboard him to the next level.

In the case of say a War Machine, I think the Lance Hoyt injury could play a part in them staying. I think a healthy run at the top of the tag scene in NJPW is something they are interested in. With KES being down and out now, NJPW is in need of another dominant team. War Machine fits that role. Combine the activity they can have between the two companies, I think they stay.

It would have been fun to see The Briscoes and KES in Orlando. Best wishes to Lance Hoyt in his recovery.

Adam Cole- he has the bright lights of taking a stab at NXT in his sight. I don't think ROH could offer him a darn thing that would get him to stay.
Memphis Mark
Posts: 667
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Memphis Mark »

ROH can keep anybody they want , they just have to pay out Young Bucks money to them. Of course that would make the company unprofitable. So I guess ROH will just just pay a handful of top guys that they perceive to be draws and continue to cycle in and out cheaper guys . In the long run it going to be hard to continue to grow the company.

I wonder how much of a locker room problem the Bucks contracts have cause ROH ?
Roque11
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:27 pm

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Roque11 »

I see Dijack eventually returning if he doesn't have a long term deal with Flo. He's just loyal to Beyond Wrestling and doesn't want to leave there right now.

I think War Machine are all but confirmed for New Japan. Not only are they booked Honor Rising, but people have seen them on posters for the late March/early April tour.

With Kyle just wait until New Japan starts announcing get line ups for their March and April shows.

Finally, I'll bet that come Spring time all the twitter insiders will start claiming that the Briscoes are WWE bound. Just watch.
ROHfan2002
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:07 pm

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by ROHfan2002 »

It really shouldn't be a huge problem right now. I say it shouldn't, but it clearly is.

Look, ROH have lost a lot of talent in the last four months. But to remain positive, that means they should have a lot of money to entice new talent with. Money they were already spending, so it shouldn't effect the bottom line that much for Sinclair.

You should be able to go out there and get two new talents for the money you were paying a O'Reilly. Dijak? Another guy. ACH, another guy. Elgin, Cole, Fish? They probably were not cheap.

Financially, if you lose this talent, you should have a nice bank of cash to entice new guys in. This is independent wrestling. How many guys could say no to a deal where you make 30-40 grand a year?

There has to be some talent in Evolve and PWG that has no real shot at WWE and would like to make that money.

Take the negative of losing talent, and make it into a positive. It really should be easy.
User avatar
supersonic
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 8:53 pm
Location: Edgar Martinez Dr S
Contact:

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by supersonic »

thecubsfan wrote:just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.

Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.

Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.

I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.

Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.
SweetDaddy
Posts: 298
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:13 am

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by SweetDaddy »

You know how you keep talent?

Pay them.
Mr. Mojo Risin
Posts: 2400
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:37 am
Location: Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

supersonic wrote:
thecubsfan wrote:just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.

Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.

Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.

I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.

Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.
The problem here is that its Kaz, a guy no one wants to see contending for the World title. Look by all accounts Kaz seems like a cool guy. But fuck, is this seriously where this promotion is at?

When I started the thread of Daniels as ROH World champion is was the thought that it would be a nice interim run for a guy that deserved it. Now it appears that may be to the contrary and actually might be an extended run. Fuck me.

I am seriously wondering if this promotion is going to be around in a few years.
User avatar
supersonic
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 8:53 pm
Location: Edgar Martinez Dr S
Contact:

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by supersonic »

Joe Lanza wrote:
20 years ago, Paul Heyman tried to convince people that they didn't want to be in WWE or WCW.

10 years ago, ROH pushed some guys well enough to create legitimate money earning indie stars and created a culture of artistically satisfying wrestling to where some guys put off legitimate opportunities to move on (Danielson).

Ultimately, no matter what con or what angle you take, your most talented people are going to eventually take the money. The difference now compared to ROH a decade ago, is you have the power of contracts to lock people in. They could lock down people in their 20's who aren't interested in WWE at this point in their lives (Ospreay's current tact) or vice versa (ACH four years ago), lock them in for 2, 3, 5 years or whatever, and know exactly long they have to build money drawing story arcs.

The problem, is when they have guys like this, your ACH's and Lio Rush's and Donovan Dijak's and Kyle O'Reilly's and whoever else tickles your personal fancy as a potential real player, is that they never seem to have any sort of plan, and if that's obvious to Joe Lanza or thecubsfan or your average barricade slapper, then it's obvious to ACH and Lio Rush and Donovan Dijak and KOR.

When people feel like they are given legitimate opportunity and are being rewarded for working hard and getting over, it creates whatever level of loyalty that can reasonably exist with WWE looming over their shoulders.

I don't know what the fuck ROH is doing now, it may very be what you are saying in building around old dudes who aren't going anywhere (Kaz, Daniels), dudes WWE doesn't want (Colt, Briscoes), and dudes who aren't interested in WWE (Bucks, Cody R), but something tells me with how quickly some guys look around and figure out that they don't want to stick around (Keith Lee), that it's more of a case of not having a plan and maybe even the older guys knowing how to stroke the office more effectively.

Another issue is recruitment. The seminar route is starting to show its deficiencies when Gabe, who is really still their direct competitor in many ways, is plucking Sammy Guevara and the artists formerly known as Dev Corp and Ethan Page and Fred Yehi and whoever else tickles your fancy as a potential player off of the indie scene.

TL;DR - If choosing to not push younger wrestlers because you know they'll walk anyway is an actual strategy, then just blow the whole thing up.
RobViper13 wrote:You can't overlook the fact Gabe gets guys to work obscenely cheap (OBSCENELY!) because he sells them on the fact he's the only guy that can get them into WWE & that is a legit selling point for many guys who see that as their destination. Whether that is wrestlers being dumb for believing that or Gabe doing a great Paul Heyman sell-job is an issue probably best debated elsewhere... but the fact is that goes through the mind of a wrestler when making a decision about their future. Work obscenely (OBSCENELY!) cheap for a guy who has a WWE connection or work cheap for a company that WWE isn't on good terms with & will want to lock you into a contract that could hurt you long term?

Joe's right, talented people are eventually going to take the money. But ROH has money. How they are using it seems to be the underlying issue.
The Dragon Saga
Posts: 2855
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 11:06 am
Location: Ireland

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by The Dragon Saga »

That last part stands out to me. "How they are using it...". If KOR was offered a reported $86,000 to stay in ROH, for what I can only assume was a one-year deal - who knows, maybe two with $43,000 each year - then that's a lot of money you can use to bring guys in, and not guys like Josh Woods or John Skylar either, guys who are making even a little bit of noise on the indies, who could draw if even a few fans to shows when ROH tours their local areas - see Jax Dane for example. They should keep using him whenever they to the Texas double shot because he's a local guy who's familiar to fans in that area.

I think this is still somewhat being blown out of proportion a little bit. You still have Dalton Castle available whenever they want to use him, and even though everyone seems certain Daniels is next to get the title, while that would be a feel good moment and all, Dalton I think is the most likely due to his popularity and the fact he seems to want to be in ROH. There are only so many spots available to top guys, you still have Jay Lethal, The Briscoes, The Bucks this coming summer, you got older guys who can draw in fans and who people like seeing, like Daniels, Colt, Kaz or even Sonjay now.

If I were ROH, right now, I'd focus on three guys - Marty Scurll, Dalton Castle and Will Ospreay. I don't know what weird contract Ospreay signed, but he shouldn't be in England doing a silly iPPV the weekend ROH does TV in Pittsburgh, he should be in Pittsburgh being put over heading into the PPV.

I'm reading a lot of good stuff about Josh Woods from last night, a Matt Riddle-esq style but with a much better look and a bit of personality too apparently. If that's the case, don't wait until the end of the TPT, just sign him to a two year deal now and start building him, stick him with Bobby Fish and make him the new KOR. There are options, ROH just needs to see them.
Image
Big Red Machine
Posts: 4376
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Big Red Machine »

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
supersonic wrote:
thecubsfan wrote:just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.

Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.

Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.

I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.

Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.
The problem here is that its Kaz, a guy no one wants to see contending for the World title. Look by all accounts Kaz seems like a cool guy. But fuck, is this seriously where this promotion is at?

When I started the thread of Daniels as ROH World champion is was the thought that it would be a nice interim run for a guy that deserved it. Now it appears that may be to the contrary and actually might be an extended run. Fuck me.

I am seriously wondering if this promotion is going to be around in a few years.
Kaz vs. Daniels for the title is exactly the type of feud that you can stick on an iPPV with a strong semi-main, but there is no way this feud should be main eventing a normal PPV- or really even be on the card if one (maybe if you had a Ladder War or something that would sell the show on its own but they don't). It's the sort of feud that a pre-2015 regime would have blown off at a Glory By Honor or some similar show, but the current mindset almost guarantees that if it happens it will be a PPV main event because they've proven themselves incapable of effectively building more than one challenger at a time, and if the focus of your TV for two months is Daniels vs. freakin' Kazarian in 2017, people are just going to tune out.
User avatar
Wilson
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1802
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:05 am
Location: US Northeast

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Wilson »

What’s so sobering in this thread is ROH’s inmost inconfidence of them creating stars. No one introduced to the company past the Top Prospect Tournament in 2011 has won the ROH Title. That’s six years. That’s the entirety of the SBG administration.
User avatar
Brada
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:05 am
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth, Texas
Contact:

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Brada »

That is definitely not a good statistic. They really need to do something to change that.
85Live
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:00 am

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by 85Live »

I honestly dont think that Daniels is winning the belt. Kaz will screw him. And in a "passing of the torch"....watch Daniels counteract the Bullet Club for Castle to overcome Cole in Fla.

Just my opinion.
User avatar
Brada
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:05 am
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth, Texas
Contact:

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by Brada »

85Live wrote:I honestly dont think that Daniels is winning the belt. Kaz will screw him. And in a "passing of the torch"....watch Daniels counteract the Bullet Club for Castle to overcome Cole in Fla.

Just my opinion.

This prediction is spot on and I agree 100%. I wish they would have flip flopped Fish and Castle in terms of title matches, and put Castle at Hammerstein, and give Fish the shot in Orlando and Fish win the belt there.

Will be cool to give Dalton Castle the ball to run with.
User avatar
supersonic
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 8:53 pm
Location: Edgar Martinez Dr S
Contact:

Re: What ROH can do to keep their talents?

Post by supersonic »

Go back to the roots behind the scenes instead of being toxic and centered around political self-preservation.
Post Reply