What ROH can do to keep their talents?
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:18 pm
So, some ROH talents left the company this couple of months. What ROH can do too keep them in the company?
The best place for Ring of Honor discussion!
https://rohforum.site/
thecubsfan wrote:just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.
Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.
Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.
I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.
Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.
The problem here is that its Kaz, a guy no one wants to see contending for the World title. Look by all accounts Kaz seems like a cool guy. But fuck, is this seriously where this promotion is at?supersonic wrote:thecubsfan wrote:just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.
Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.
Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.
I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.
Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.
Joe Lanza wrote:
20 years ago, Paul Heyman tried to convince people that they didn't want to be in WWE or WCW.
10 years ago, ROH pushed some guys well enough to create legitimate money earning indie stars and created a culture of artistically satisfying wrestling to where some guys put off legitimate opportunities to move on (Danielson).
Ultimately, no matter what con or what angle you take, your most talented people are going to eventually take the money. The difference now compared to ROH a decade ago, is you have the power of contracts to lock people in. They could lock down people in their 20's who aren't interested in WWE at this point in their lives (Ospreay's current tact) or vice versa (ACH four years ago), lock them in for 2, 3, 5 years or whatever, and know exactly long they have to build money drawing story arcs.
The problem, is when they have guys like this, your ACH's and Lio Rush's and Donovan Dijak's and Kyle O'Reilly's and whoever else tickles your personal fancy as a potential real player, is that they never seem to have any sort of plan, and if that's obvious to Joe Lanza or thecubsfan or your average barricade slapper, then it's obvious to ACH and Lio Rush and Donovan Dijak and KOR.
When people feel like they are given legitimate opportunity and are being rewarded for working hard and getting over, it creates whatever level of loyalty that can reasonably exist with WWE looming over their shoulders.
I don't know what the fuck ROH is doing now, it may very be what you are saying in building around old dudes who aren't going anywhere (Kaz, Daniels), dudes WWE doesn't want (Colt, Briscoes), and dudes who aren't interested in WWE (Bucks, Cody R), but something tells me with how quickly some guys look around and figure out that they don't want to stick around (Keith Lee), that it's more of a case of not having a plan and maybe even the older guys knowing how to stroke the office more effectively.
Another issue is recruitment. The seminar route is starting to show its deficiencies when Gabe, who is really still their direct competitor in many ways, is plucking Sammy Guevara and the artists formerly known as Dev Corp and Ethan Page and Fred Yehi and whoever else tickles your fancy as a potential player off of the indie scene.
TL;DR - If choosing to not push younger wrestlers because you know they'll walk anyway is an actual strategy, then just blow the whole thing up.
RobViper13 wrote:You can't overlook the fact Gabe gets guys to work obscenely cheap (OBSCENELY!) because he sells them on the fact he's the only guy that can get them into WWE & that is a legit selling point for many guys who see that as their destination. Whether that is wrestlers being dumb for believing that or Gabe doing a great Paul Heyman sell-job is an issue probably best debated elsewhere... but the fact is that goes through the mind of a wrestler when making a decision about their future. Work obscenely (OBSCENELY!) cheap for a guy who has a WWE connection or work cheap for a company that WWE isn't on good terms with & will want to lock you into a contract that could hurt you long term?
Joe's right, talented people are eventually going to take the money. But ROH has money. How they are using it seems to be the underlying issue.
Kaz vs. Daniels for the title is exactly the type of feud that you can stick on an iPPV with a strong semi-main, but there is no way this feud should be main eventing a normal PPV- or really even be on the card if one (maybe if you had a Ladder War or something that would sell the show on its own but they don't). It's the sort of feud that a pre-2015 regime would have blown off at a Glory By Honor or some similar show, but the current mindset almost guarantees that if it happens it will be a PPV main event because they've proven themselves incapable of effectively building more than one challenger at a time, and if the focus of your TV for two months is Daniels vs. freakin' Kazarian in 2017, people are just going to tune out.Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:The problem here is that its Kaz, a guy no one wants to see contending for the World title. Look by all accounts Kaz seems like a cool guy. But fuck, is this seriously where this promotion is at?supersonic wrote:thecubsfan wrote:just for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to defend ROH.
Adding Kaz to the Bullet Club makes some sense. We all assume Adam Cole is done in ROH sometime after WM weekend, which is about the time this thing is going to air, so the number of active members isn't going to increase for long. ROH was going to need another singles guy to replace him, and can't assume Cody or even Omega are going to be around enough to fill that role. (It could end up being Page, but then some one else has to be in Page's spot.) ROH Is going with Daniels as a top singles guy, so Kaz is going to be most useful as a heel challenger and could use being part of the top heel group to give him some credibility. There's too many Bullet Club people when you consider everyone in NJPW, but most of those guys are not in ROH much. ROH's in a spot where they can only consider what's best from them, and it'll only be the Bucks, Page and Kaz as full time Bullet Club people there, with the likes of GOD just filling out PPVs.
Kaz - or really anyone - joining the Bullet Club dilutes the concept, but the much bigger problem is *ROH appears to be building the company around 46 year old Christopher Daniels for at least the next several months*. That's diluting the concept of ROH itself. ROH's used to be about breaking the new great stars and now will be centered around - in storyline if not also in reality - a guy at the end of the line and barely hanging on. It's such a tonal shift that I'm not really sure what ROH is about at this point. It's also a really convenient metaphor for the state of things. Daniels is much better than he should be at his age, but Daniels on top in 2017 is like ROH running ROH reunion shows before they've gone out of business.
I don't think ROH is doing this to be malicious or because they don't get that adding more people to the Bullet Club is a bad nWo like thing. I think they're just so broken that they see this as one of the better available options. I know Dave's reporting on ROH is like the third rail of Wrestling Twitter, but suppose ROH really does believe it's problems are simply "there's no way we can compete with WWE on anyone they want" like he keeps saying. Going with Daniels & Kaz as a big feud makes sense with that mindset, they're too old for WWE to want. Cody & Colt make sense to use in a big way because they're unlikely to want to go to WWE. And, conversely, if you totally believe WWE can take who they want, maybe you don't invest in the guys you think WWE wants like Dijak because you'll lose them anyway.
Rich and Lanza went thru the ROH roster of guys who are good hands or far away from WWE and saw it as an issue. I think they're right, but maybe ROH sees that sort of roster makeup of solid hands and guys a long way from making to WWE as a positive, as a group of guys they can tell long term stories around without worrying about everyone leaving right after. It's defeatist and self fulfilling in a lot of ways, but that seems like ROH's current attitude.
When I started the thread of Daniels as ROH World champion is was the thought that it would be a nice interim run for a guy that deserved it. Now it appears that may be to the contrary and actually might be an extended run. Fuck me.
I am seriously wondering if this promotion is going to be around in a few years.
85Live wrote:I honestly dont think that Daniels is winning the belt. Kaz will screw him. And in a "passing of the torch"....watch Daniels counteract the Bullet Club for Castle to overcome Cole in Fla.
Just my opinion.