Random ROH Classic Thoughts

[Big Red Machine]

Unpopular opinion:

I was doing my usual rewatch before a big show and I really enjoyed Final Battle 2009's main event.

I know, Black's booking was bad, the crowd was chanting shit and they could have done something similar in 40-45 minutes, but if you take out the context and sees it just like a match, it's a really good one worth the FB ME spot.

First time watching it was like meh, but this time I realized that it told a great story. It's not like the best thing out there but possible in the **** - ****1/4 range for me.

One bit of context you might be missing is that the show took place in the middle of a huge blizzard (I had tickets but couldn't get in from Jersey due to the snow), so people were also getting pissed off that the match was running so long because it would make their trips home even harder.

I haven't rewatched it in a long time, but I remember it being awesome (****-****1/4) minus that one segment of repeated count-out teases, which I think is what really hurt the match. If you take out that segment, I don't think the crowd turns on the match. I do agree that it was a worthy FB main event, quality-wise (and that whole show is pretty underrated, as the excellence of Bucks vs. Steenerico has gotten lost in the post-match angle, and I remember Hero vs. Kingston being pretty awesome as well.

[AlexROH]

Unpopular opinion:

I was doing my usual rewatch before a big show and I really enjoyed Final Battle 2009's main event.

I know, Black's booking was bad, the crowd was chanting shit and they could have done something similar in 40-45 minutes, but if you take out the context and sees it just like a match, it's a really good one worth the FB ME spot.

First time watching it was like meh, but this time I realized that it told a great story. It's not like the best thing out there but possible in the **** - ****1/4 range for me.

One bit of context you might be missing is that the show took place in the middle of a huge blizzard (I had tickets but couldn't get in from Jersey due to the snow), so people were also getting pissed off that the match was running so long because it would make their trips home even harder.

I haven't rewatched it in a long time, but I remember it being awesome (****-****1/4) minus that one segment of repeated count-out teases, which I think is what really hurt the match. If you take out that segment, I don't think the crowd turns on the match. I do agree that it was a worthy FB main event, quality-wise (and that whole show is pretty underrated, as the excellence of Bucks vs. Steenerico has gotten lost in the post-match angle, and I remember Hero vs. Kingston being pretty awesome as well.

Oh, didnt know about blizzard. Was really looking foward to your review but couldnt find it on your website.

Yeah, without that section this could have been a true classic with the stellar heel performance by Aries. And yes, gotta agree with FB being such an underated show

[Big Red Machine]

Unpopular opinion:

I was doing my usual rewatch before a big show and I really enjoyed Final Battle 2009's main event.

I know, Black's booking was bad, the crowd was chanting shit and they could have done something similar in 40-45 minutes, but if you take out the context and sees it just like a match, it's a really good one worth the FB ME spot.

First time watching it was like meh, but this time I realized that it told a great story. It's not like the best thing out there but possible in the **** - ****1/4 range for me.

One bit of context you might be missing is that the show took place in the middle of a huge blizzard (I had tickets but couldn't get in from Jersey due to the snow), so people were also getting pissed off that the match was running so long because it would make their trips home even harder.

I haven't rewatched it in a long time, but I remember it being awesome (****-****1/4) minus that one segment of repeated count-out teases, which I think is what really hurt the match. If you take out that segment, I don't think the crowd turns on the match. I do agree that it was a worthy FB main event, quality-wise (and that whole show is pretty underrated, as the excellence of Bucks vs. Steenerico has gotten lost in the post-match angle, and I remember Hero vs. Kingston being pretty awesome as well.

Oh, didnt know about blizzard. Was really looking foward to your review but couldnt find it on your website.

Yeah, without that section this could have been a true classic with the stellar heel performance by Aries. And yes, gotta agree with FB being such an underated show

I haven't gotten around to it yet (haven't even seen the show the night before), but it's one that has been in my queue for a while. New stuff keeps bumping it. I'm eagerly anticipating actually being able to hear Larry Sweeney, as I remember his audio on the iPPV being terrible.

[Wilson]

Right, the Final Battle main event had another overrun, plus it was the second Tyler Black time limit draw that year, and his chase was at that point running on fumes. The decision felt like a lack of creative direction metastasizing over the course of one night. Other than the booking, it was a pretty good match (from what I recall). Tyler was probably one of Aries's best opponent during his return.

[Big Red Machine]

Right, the Final Battle main event had another overrun, plus it was the second Tyler Black time limit draw that year, and his chase was at that point running on fumes. The decision felt like a lack of creative direction metastasizing over the course of one night. Other than the booking, it was a pretty good match (from what I recall). Tyler was probably one of Aries's best opponent during his return.

Yeah, the decision to do a draw was absolutely terrible and served no purpose. Aries had spent the past few months finishing up his feuds with all of his other challengers (Petey, Delirious, Aries, Cabana, Omega) and they had already set Roddy up as a challenger for Tyler with the SOTF finish, plus Tyler finishing the year with the title win when he started it with a non-title win over the champ would have bookended things perfectly.

[Montana]

Finished 2002, and I have to say I was quite impressed, and I’m not sure why. Shows that were under the radar, ending up being great.


Favorite shows
Round Robin Challenge
Final Battle
Road to the Title
Era of Honor
Honor invades Boston

Favorite Matches
Samoa Joe vs Low Ki
Daniels vs. Danielson vs. Low Ki
Michael Shane vs. Paul London Street fight
Low Ki vs. AJ Styles
Danielson vs. Low Ki
Amazing Red vs. Low Ki
Daniels/Morgan vs. SAT
Jay vs. Mark Briscoe
I’m sure I’m forgetting a few… but these are just off the top of my head.

Thoughts on Roster / storylines:

Samoa Joe , Low K and Amazing Red…. Everything they did was great. So good in the ring, and interesting to see their careers 18 years later today.

ROH Title - I didn’t like how this all played out. I was good with Low Ki winning the belt….but why in the hell would he lose it like 1-2 shows after he won it?!? Let alone losing it to Xavier. Xavier was alright, but felt like he had more “the look” and less about being the best in the ring. The other thing was that it was odd Daniels would help Xavier win….Shouldn’t Xavier have helped Daniels win?? Then at Final Battle, it was weird how the title match was on, before the #1 contenders match.

Xavier - As mentioned above… I don’t get it. Maybe being around at that time, people saw something else. He wasn’t bad, but I just didn’t see he’s world champ material at the time compared to the other talent on the roster. Saw the post in this thread about Gabe using him knowing he wasn’t the #1 heel, thus the demand to see people beat him. Maybe it worked at the time, but in retrospect, probably not.

Bryan Danielson , Christopher Daniels, & AJ Styles - Great year for these guys as well. They all showed a lot of veteran skill in the ring, even Daneilson, who wasn't wrestling as long.

SAT and Quiet Storm - I was pleasantly surprised by the ROH tag division , and especially these teams. I’m sure they had 1-2 more matches that were in my favorites. Really impressed by SAT. They were doing the MCMG and Young Buck type spots, years prior. They reminded me a bit of Lucha Bros too.

CM Punk, Colt Cabana - They were a bit sloppy in 2002, and the best in the Midwest thing , seemed to work out.

Steve Corino – great on commentary... Back in the day I watched ECW, but towards the end, I think I lost access to watching, so I never really got to see much COrino in the ring, in his prime. Of the few matches he had so far seems alright but I’ll be keeping my eye on him moving forward.

Christopher Street Connection - I didn’t quite get why they were popular / unpopular. Seemed a bit much.

Paul London – Not sure if others felt this way, but he was a bit sloppy in 2002. I get he was a young wrestler, and you can honestly see his growth from the first shows, to the later. Felt like his strengths were his extreme risk he took. Was a little disappointed with his 2002, but I probably had high expectations going in, compared to comparing him to a student.

Texas Wrestling Alliance – I wonder if ROH would have succeeded without the Texas Wrestling alliance. They really gave the company some excellent depth. Spanky and Michael Shane were pretty solid in 2002. Danielson was great, and London shows signs of improvement. Seems like Michael Shane is being groomed for the next big thing in ROH.

The Briscoe’s - So far good matches with Jay and a good storyline between Mark and Jay. I am honestly quite surprised just how good 18 year old Jay Briscoe is. I assume he had top notch training, and if he didn’t he’s a natural.

Donovan Morgan - Actually never heard of him before watching this year, and I was pretty impressed. Worthy of being ROH tag champ, with a pretty solid roster of tag wrestlers.

Carnage Crew, Natural Born Sinners, Da Hit Squad, Dunn and Marcos, - They were alright. The tag division didn’t seem as fleshed out just yet. Almost like too much going on; rather than establishing a couple key tag teams.

Crowning a Champion - A bit of a disappointing show, after the first few.

Abdullah the Butcher - Not for me. I hate that type of wrestling, and glad ROH did not go too far in that direction. Also, I can’t believe he is 79 and still alive. Great for him. I’m just surprised of someone of that size, that put his body through that much punishment, is able to live that long.

Ring of Honor should really have a hall of fame. Such a who’s who of wrestling, with so many great contributions to the company. You could easily induct 2-3 wrestler per year for a while.

[supersonic]

It's a while away, but 2009 will be thoroughly tarred and feathered when I reach it on the Lapsed ROHbot. Some absolutely appalling roster moves in addition to the booking up and down the card.

[Chrisvegas27]

Does anyone have fightful because its behind a pay wall on what was pushed to change during the talent meeting back in november

[Montana]

(Wrote this about a month or two ago)

Just finished watching all of 2003 shows for ROH; and it had some high high’s and some low low’s. In comparison to 2002… I felt 2002 was much more consistent for the average show. So to be fair, ROH had like 12 shows in 2002; and 24 in 2003 (Or about that). Still a good year, by all means.

The Good:
Samoa Joe - Great ROH championship reign. Every title defense was good.
The Rise of CM Punk – early on, it was easy to detect that CM Punk was something special.
Raven vs. CM Punk feud. These guys had a great feud that kept going most of the year.
Glory By Honor, Death Before Dishonor and Main Event Spectacles were probably 3 of ROH’s best shows to date.
Rise of the Briscoes… this came late in 2003; but seems like the right call, at the right time. If not sooner.
The Crowds – The fan were really into these shows.
Too many good matches to list!

The ok-mehh
The low-mid card talent had a lot more average wrestlers. Outkast Killers; Backseat Boys, Carnage Crew, 15x Special K, Slyk Wagner Brown, Slugger; Fast Eddie.
ECW injection… while I’m sure in 2003 this was pretty cool…today it hasn’t aged well. Raven was used well… but guys like Justin Credible & Steve Corino didn’t really add a whole lot to the product.
Field of Honor…. Idk… I could take or leave this concept. Had some good matches; but wasn’t something I was overly excited about.

The Bad
Special K - This hurt the overall product in my opinion. It was just too much; for a low card act. Their Rave party was dumb.. and just too much going on. Really think ROH missed on this one.
Lack of some ROH favorites ; Bryan Danielson, AJ Styles, Briscoe Brothers, SAT, Low Ki Not sure if it was injuries or what, but seemed like they missed over 40% of the shows. Plus Michael Shane, Paul London, and Brian Kendrick all went to WWE.

CM Punk lost his next match; after winning the feud with Raven. Felt very odd.

The Ugly
The fake Riot at 1st Anniversary Show

All in all; 2003 was a good year. It established some new major players. Most angles/storylines were good. I think I were watching this in 2003, it would have been awesome mostly. So far; 2004 seems to be aging much better for me. I'm about half way through.

[cgstong]

Great recap of 2003. Hope you do this for 2004!

[supersonic]

ROH had no high-quality follow-up for London's departure, Red's injury, and the Dog-Collar match after DBD. That period stretching until spring 2004 has so many holes in it. Perhaps Low Ki should be blamed for not doing the job to Homicide as agreed at Main Event Spectacles; perhaps that would've made firmly placed Homicide in the role left empty by London, a role that Styles and Danielson couldn't commit to filling at that time.

[Montana]

ROH had no high-quality follow-up for London's departure, Red's injury, and the Dog-Collar match after DBD. That period stretching until spring 2004 has so many holes in it. Perhaps Low Ki should be blamed for not doing the job to Homicide as agreed at Main Event Spectacles; perhaps that would've made firmly placed Homicide in the role left empty by London, a role that Styles and Danielson couldn't commit to filling at that time.

Ok...interesting.... Yeah... the shows and product were good; but exactly it seemed like when London left and after DBD... it felt like something was missing. If nothing else; they did a great job building Homicide, Joe, and CM Punk in 2003.


I should have my thoughts on 2004 coming very soon. Watched all the shows and started watching 2005 now.

[Montana]

2004 Review

I will say 2003, really set up a nice 2004. I think my expectations were may little high for 2003, and they were a bit underwhelmed, but 2004 met and exceeded my expectations. Mostly all positives things to say about 2004; with very little negative.

The Good:

Samoa Joe’s Reign - Probably the best championship reign, I’ve ever witnessed in like almost 30 years of watching. Every championship match delivered. Every night Joe delivered. Really liked the different challengers with different approaches. Losing to Austin Aires was really an interesting / memorable way to way the title. Austin was only with the company for 7-8 months prior to winning; and was deemed the one to dethrone the champ, that had numerous worthy challengers.

CM Punk - From 2003 to 2004 he went from a ton of potential to bonafide something special. While his face turn wasn’t perfectly done; I think he proved he could do heel/face and the fans bought it. Delivered in the ring too in 2004.

Punk vs Joe Trilogy – Need I say more

Homicide/Danielson/Low Ki – really helped solidify the main event scene

Rottweilers - Ki’s return was awesome…really well done.

Rise of Generation Next – Felt kind of over night; but they were given the ball and they ran with it.

Embassy – Fun to watch…although I’m not sure they can do all the stuff today, they did back then.

Nigel/Walters/Whitmer/Maff/Jay Lethal - Very solid Mid Card guys who delivered in the first or last match.

Foley / Steamboat - Interesting and entertaining stuff here.

The Ehh – OK

Special K wasn’t nearly as bad this time around, but still not great.

Toward the end, they had a few DQ/run in matches.


Overall 2004 was an outstanding year; and not only delivered, but also set things up well heading into 2005!

[Montana]

2005 Year in Review

Arguably the greatest year in Ring of Honor History. You have the Summer of Punk, which was one of the greatest storylines/runs in ROH history. Joe vs. Kobashi arguably one of the greatest independent matches of all time. You have the rise of James Gibson and Bryan Danielson. Some of the best feuds in ROH history and timeless clips like Jack Evans jumping off the steel cage. This year had it all… well… just about.

In my opinion 2005 had the highest of highs for ROH. It also had some questionable booking, erratic storylines, and a lackluster tag division, and a lot of talent in and out. The good clearly outshines the bad. As ROH runs more shows per year; it’s hard to keep the quality up. Especially with folks coming in and out. Here nor there I’ll get into the Good and Bad of 2005.

The Good
- Iconic moments , angles , incredible roster, this had a mix of the best of Ring of Honor for sure. Probably the best roster of all time for a 1 year span.
- The Summer of Punk. How incredible was it that Punk finally captured the belt; AND turned heel in one of the greatest promos in ROH history. Everything about this run was great, and booked to perfection. Really liked how Christopher Daniels returned here to get his revenge.
- Samoa Joe - Thought he booking was solid in 2005. They kept him relevant and a big deal.
- Bryan Danielson – Did an Incredible job with the belt. Really liked how he turn, and how it slowly turned heel.
- Roderick Strong and Jack Evans were awesome. I don’t know how they didn’t get the tag belts here; but probably the greatest tag team to never win the belts together. My guess is that they were supposed to win at Final Battle; but Jack Evans couldn’t compete so they went with Strong and Aires. Don’t believe ROH referenced Evans being hurt for Final Battle though. Evans does do a 3 month tour of Japan in April 2006.
- The Embassy – Really good heel faction. Thought Shelley and Abyss were nice additions… and Toliet Paper…how fun!
- James Gibson had a nice string of matches.
- Joe vs. Kobashi - What an incredible match.
- Colt Cabana really stepped up when Punk left.
- Less / No more Special K.
- Rise of Jay Lethal – Again really good booking to bring him up; and make him a player.
- Steel Cage warfare – The highlight of Evans jumping off the cage is the one people remember; but equally impressive in that match was him doing a double jump moonsault off the top of the cage to Jimmy Rave I think; then splashing down on someone in the ring. That was DANGEROUS.
- The last 4-6 shows of the year; felt like they gained some momentum
- Homicide and Cabana has the making of an all time great feud. I need more clotheshangers; and drano in today wrestling.
- Manhattan Mayhem – One of the best ROH shows of all time… or wrestling show all together for that matter. Great matches, balanced, and well paced. Stands the test of time.
- Survival of the Fitttest – May have been the best one of all time.
- This probably flys under the radar; but Milano Collection AT was a real nice under card additional towards the end of 2005. Some nice forgotten matches to solidify the undercard.
- Kenta vs. Low Ki - I’m pretty sure this wasn’t rated as 5 stars; but the fans were certainly chanting it after the match; if that gives you any indication.

The OK to Ehh
- A lot of world title changes, from Aires, to Punk to Gibson to Danielson. While I liked Aires/Punk wins; I thought Gibson was too much; only to leave.
- Missed Opportunities - Punk vs. Christopher Daniels could have been built up to a really big match; and that just kinda fizzled. Generation Next kicking Shelley out; that whole thing was kinda oddly done. Austin Aires was white hot with the belt; and kinda got derailed. I think just having a lot of guys in and out; hurt some of the long term storytelling.
- Steve Corino coming in here. He’s in’ He’s out. Never really stays long enough to gain traction.
- Pure Championship … while It had champions in 2005 (Walter, Jay, Joe, Nigel) … it was kind of an afterthought a bit. Good matches; but nothing really THAT memorable.
- Rottweilers… good but inconsistent
- Final Battle … This had some INCREDIBLE “dream” matches - but wasn’t really the climax to any long feuds. Literally no matches on the card; were like grudge matches even. The closest was probably Joe and Lethal in a 4 way with Christopher Daniels and BJ. Still a strong show; but as a final year end climax show; it wasn’t that one show that wraps it all up. Final Battle was used a bit different back then, to be fair. Steel Cage Warfare was more of the “go home” show for the year with the Embassay vs. Generation next feud ending; a big Joe vs Lethal match; and Corino/Homicide.
- The year started out a little slow… up until about Manhattan Mayhem.
- Best of 5 series with Danielson and Homicide. I may need to go back and watch; but this felt kinda spaced apart. So Homicide won 1 in JAN 05; they split in FEB 05; Danielson wrestled 4 other matches between March and April; then mid april resume the feud with a Dragon win; and in May was the climax where Dragon won. So like the Trios tournament and Best of Super Juniors were kind of in the middle of the feud. While it was good; it wasn’t great.


The Bad
- Tag Division. Rolling into 2005; Maff & Whitmer were probably going to have an awesome run. Then Maff was exiled…. And Jimmy Jacobs steps in. Him and Whitmer was alright. Dropped to Carnage Crew; and back to Whitmer and Jacobs. Then Sal and Mamaluke. I’ll go out on a limb and say this was arguably one of the worst year for tag teams. Briscoes missed the whole year, due to motorcycle accident. Dunn and Marcos were highly featured. It’s mind boggling with how much talent they had on the roster; and the tag divison was this lackluster. Like I said; Roderick Strong and Jack Evans could/would have helped a ton. Looks like Strong/Aires winning is a good sign heading into 2006. (Maybe it was just the other stuff that that good, that it made this division look bad… not quite sure)
-
- Dojo students…aka jobbers. No Thanks
- Colt Cabana being murdered one show; then wrestling on the next show in a tag match : (


All in all; to me 2005 had more good-great things than any year before. It also had more OK-Bad stuff as well. All in all; comparing 2004 and 2005 like kind of like which type of cheesecake you like best. Personally I think I preferred 2004; which to me was a bit more consistent and balanced top of bottom. 2005 was still an incredible year…and probably the highest highs the company has reached. 2005 ROH almost had too much top talent. What a year though…. Really looking forward to 2006. I gotta imagine Roddy/Aires kill it as tag champs; as well as Bryan Danielson. Hasn’t been teased yet; but I know the CZW/ROH feud is coming too. Really looking forward to seeing that fold in “real time” 15 years after. Also some of my favorite ROH shows of all time are in this year; so yeah… looking forward to 2006 : )

Also , side note… I am blessed to be able to watch the DVD versions of these. While HonorClub is improving; I really enjoy the continuity of each show ; one after the other. Plus the music, crowd, unedited footage. It’s really a treat to watch and go back in time. My first show was from 2007 and I was hooked from there. I know I’ve seen every show since 2007; but don’t recall; at what point I started watching them in order. I guess my plan is to keep going for a while. Certainly will be harder/longer to watch these not being on lockdown; and especially once I get vaccinated. With all that being said; I really hope they get as much of the footage these for shows on honorclub as possible. The backstage promos; the 2000’s techno music; as close to the real experience as they can; without copyright claims.

[supersonic]

There was no excuse for what happened to the tag belts in 2005. So much ennui could've been avoided by just crowning Evans & Strong at Weekend of Thunder. There's not one match the Havana Pit Bulls had that was as thrilling as Romero & Homicide teaming up at Joe vs. Punk II against Evans & Strong.

Even with Maff & Whitmer winning and Maff being fucked off, Sapolsky didn't give a full effort to get Jacobs & Whitmer over in the summer. I have it on good authority that the brief switch to Carnage Crew was a "gold watch" for them - notice that once they wrapped up their program against Dunn & Marcos, that was their swan song.

Furthermore regarding Carnage Crew - they had no juice left once the Dunn & Marcos program ended. In what I believe to be sourced from Jacobs (but not directly to me), Sapolsky said they could either get the "gold watch" or stick around, because after the D&M program plus the "gold watch," what more could be done with Carnage Crew? CC decided to go with the tag belts because they are described as "belt marks." I believe Loc's Twitter profile biography confirms that to be true - https://twitter.com/HCLoc1?s=20

*RABBIT HOLE FANTASY BOOKING ALERT*

Spoiler: show

Give me the book going into 2005, and once Maff has to fuck off, I believe I can make Jacobs & Whitmer truly get over. I keep everything as is through April.

Manhattan Mayhem - Evans & Strong dethrone Jacobs & Whitmer in a show-stealer. (The following week on SmackDown, Jacobs gets squashed by Eddie Guerrero.)

Having lost the straps and humiliated on a national network TV broadcast, Jacobs brings a darker side out immediately. I think at Final Showdown, I have Jacobs & Whitmer go over Cabana & McGuinness when the latter team has a breakdown of egos, perhaps McGuinness attacks Cabana. Jacobs is happy to capitalize and accept the "cheap" victory, while maybe Whitmer has some reservations about it.

Nowhere to Run - Evans & Strong successfully defend the straps in a show-stealer against the unlikely duo of Delirious & Shelley. In consecutive weeks, the tag titles have now brought down the house, elevating their prestige.

New Frontiers - Jacobs & Whitmer win an extended squash over Steen & Generico. I imagine it to be a ***-ish gem.

Death Before Dishonor III - Generation Next leaves the show empty-handed. Not only does Punk dethrone Aries in the main event and turn heel, but underneath, Jacobs & Whitmer reclaim the tag straps from Evans & Strong. Evans realizes he needs to be seasoned in Dragon Gate, having been the weak link that was pinned. However, in this match, Whitmer embraced more of the newfound heel tendencies of Jacobs. While not a full-fledged vile heel turn (as that is saved in the main event for Punk), the fans and especially Strong aren't happy with Jacobs, who breaks the Code of Honor in the post-match and tries giving Evans some additional punishment. Jacobs goes on to explain that he hasn't forgotten about GeNext taking orders from Shelley in 2004 and bullying him.

Carnage Crew never challenge for the tag titles, let alone win them. Period.

Instead, to really get Jacobs & Whitmer over as killers, they decimate Dunn & Marcos sometime in July, taking advantage of the Ring Crew Express being savagely attacked by Carnage Crew. Vicious submissions from Jacobs compliment plenty of head-droppings and rag-dolling from Whitmer. Jacobs even teases using a spike after the match, but Whitmer perhaps talks him out of it.

The Homecoming - Jacobs & Whitmer successfully defend the tag titles against Low Ki & Homicide. Obviously, Homicide does the job, but this is the first "main event" tandem to gun for the belts in years. The Rottweilers escalate the building darkness of Jacobs, and perhaps the highlight of the match is him and Homicide teasing a battle between the spike and the ghetto fork.

Over the next several months, more marquee tandems challenge and fail to dethrone Jacobs & Whitmer. Rave & Shelley give a great effort, reigniting the Jacobs vs. Shelley feud of the past couple years. It's a refreshing chapter too, with Shelley now being part of the Embassy; neither team is afraid to break the Code of Honor on each other, especially after the war Jacobs & Whitmer already had against Low Ki & Homicide. While not the full-blown war that GeNext has with the Embassy, Jacobs & Whitmer do have what turns out to be a program against the reformed babyface faction, beating different tandems in more title defenses... except for one particular pair. But as GeNext finds an ally in Styles, the Phenomenal One even teams with them to challenge Jacobs & Whitmer, only to fail to win back the belts he once held.

I'll even have Kendrick remain a babyface through his entire 2005 run. Depending on who'd be available, I'd have his swan song at Dragon Gate Invasion be doing the honors for Jacobs & Whitmer, who send him packing back to WWE after he and his partner fail to dethrone them.

Also, this is my main event for Showdown in Motown - Jacobs & Whitmer successfully defending against Sabin & Styles. It's a match that showcases top Michigan names, and uses the boost of TNA's jump to SpikeTV the month before to further elevate the tag titles. (In the semi-main, Danielson successfully defends against Daniels - this shows good faith from TNA to allow its contracted talent to do the honors for ROH's champions, both on the same card.)

Around this time, Lacey gets thrown in, but Jacobs & Whitmer remain tag champs the rest of the year. Mamaluke & Rinauro never even team up, let alone win the tag straps. The run of Jacobs & Whitmer finally comes to an end (as does their program against GeNext) at Final Battle, being dethroned by the tandem of Strong & Aries. In the post-match, Aries acknowledges the torment that Jacobs endured from them in 2004, and that he holds no ill will for the past several months, and puts over Jacobs & Whitmer for elevating the tag titles; GeNext makes amends with Jacobs, which is shockingly accepted. (Lacey convincing Jacobs to betray Whitmer is saved for 2006.)

I'd also consider booking this if the stars lined up on the right card, with the storyline credit going to Lacey and Prince Nana for putting their teams together: Generation Next vs. Jacobs, Whitmer, Rave, & Shelley. This would be mind-blowing, as Shelley and Jacobs are reunited for one night only due to having a common enemy in GeNext.

With this booking, we learn where we failed with John Walters, who while Pure Champion, was squashed by Chris Masters on WWE TV, resulting in Walters being fucked off almost immediately. Instead, we make lemons out of lemonade - Jacobs being destroyed by Eddie Guerrero turns out to be a key catalyst in his evolution towards becoming a psychotic, emotionally damaged victim of bullying that started the year before against GeNext.

Tag Titles matches that occur as a result of this booking:
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. Evans & Strong - Manhattan Mayhem (title change)
Evans & Strong vs. Delirious & Shelley - Nowhere to Run
Evans & Strong vs. Jacobs & Whitmer - Death Before Dishonor III (title change)
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. Dunn & Marcos - early or mid July (complete squash thanks to Carnage Crew)
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. Low Ki & Homicide - The Homecoming
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. Kendrick/whoever - Dragon Gate Invasion
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. Rave & Shelley - mid October
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. GeNext/Styles combinations (but not Strong & Aries)
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. Sabin & Styles - Showdown in Motown
Jacobs & Whitmer vs. Strong & Aries - Final Battle 2005 (title change)

Take a look at that list and tell me that wouldn't elevate the tag titles. That Nowhere to Run show-stealer. Low Ki & Homicide. Rave & Shelley. Kendrick's swan song. Sabin & Styles... in the main event over Danielson vs. Daniels! GeNext challenging over and over again until they find the right tandem to finally get closure against Whitmer and especially Jacobs. And it perfectly lays the groundwork for the inevitably violent split between Jacobs and Whitmer.

[Wavelet Transform]

Manhattan Mayhem is such a good show - I've probably watched that more than any other wrestling show. Something for everyone, great matches, and great angles. Also, Cabana jackassing around NYC for GTGM is one the funniest bits in ROH history.

[Wavelet Transform]

Agree 100% on the value of watching on DVD too. It's a time-warp for sure, but the music alone adds so much. Havana Pitbulls coming out to "Bulls on Parade" made them seem like killers. Obviously, the Dragon "Final Countdown" entrances were something special too.

[Montana]

While i was watching these DVD's i thought to myself how is ROH different today vs. then. The biggest difference i've noticed was the crowd reactions; and how special that makes it. While; the crowds are still decent; it wasn't like it was back then. You had rabbid fans... and all the fans were into it. I don't think the wrestling has changed THAT much. Certainly more similar alternatives today in NXT/AEW; but the in ring product; hasn't changed tremendously. You don't have jack evans doing multiple flips off cages; BUT the consistent in ring product is still there; imo. While the talent like Bryan Danielson/CM PUnk/Samoa JOe are future hall of famers; the current ROH talent holds it own; for what it is. Look at Joe vs Punk compared to Lethal vs. Taven in a 60 minute match. While both great in different ways.

It's amazing how much the fans can add to a match. Look at Villain Enterprises vs. MExasquad 6 man titles.... many considered it to be the best match of 2020 for ROH; and a big reason for that was the crowd. So hopefully when ROH resume's they can work to get that live fan experience back to closer to what it was. It's probably a complicated equation; but the talent is there to make it happen.

[supersonic]

Those crowds moved on to any combination of AEW, NJPW, PWG, and WWE (NXT and depending on who is pushed and how, the main roster as well) in the past decade or so.

I may dig into this to a significantly greater degree one day. WrestleMania XXX weekend in NOLA confirmed to me that the ROH of the 2000s no longer lived on in ROH, but at the time in WWE. Even TNA (until the gravy-train ran out in late 2013 starting with Styles) for a brief time, had to some degree what ROH once had.

Those crowds were also the evolution of the ECW crowds. Those same fans who were well-versed on the business, who weren't interested in what WWE wanted to feed them, and with very high expectations.

There will NEVER be an ROH audience again that screams "DON'T COME BACK!" at someone who comes in and stinks up the joint, as happened at Best of American Super Juniors Tournament. My evidence for that is the amount of talents ROH has brought in over recent years and not gotten the slightest bit of controversial pushback, other than the exception of Cass & Enzo. In the 2000s, no way would a lazy sack of shit like Bull Dempsey had survived; he'd have been eaten alive similar to Jeff Hardy 2003. No way would a washed-up, completely irrelevant Mr. Kennedy had been welcomed to any degree, other than to be absolutely humiliated by an ROH favorite.

[famicommander]

I'm with you on Bull Dempsey but didn't Ken Anderson get brought in for Milwaukee and another really close by show? No way he'd get booed in his home town regardless. If they'd booked him in New York, Philly, Baltimore, or Boston I think Anderson would've been booed out of the building at any point in ROH history.