Random ROH Classic Thoughts

[Wavelet Transform]

Those crowds moved on to any combination of AEW, NJPW, PWG, and WWE (NXT and depending on who is pushed and how, the main roster as well) in the past decade or so.

I may dig into this to a significantly greater degree one day. WrestleMania XXX weekend in NOLA confirmed to me that the ROH of the 2000s no longer lived on in ROH, but at the time in WWE. Even TNA (until the gravy-train ran out in late 2013 starting with Styles) for a brief time, had to some degree what ROH once had.

Those crowds were also the evolution of the ECW crowds. Those same fans who were well-versed on the business, who weren't interested in what WWE wanted to feed them, and with very high expectations.

There will NEVER be an ROH audience again that screams "DON'T COME BACK!" at someone who comes in and stinks up the joint, as happened at Best of American Super Juniors Tournament. My evidence for that is the amount of talents ROH has brought in over recent years and not gotten the slightest bit of controversial pushback, other than the exception of Cass & Enzo. In the 2000s, no way would a lazy sack of shit like Bull Dempsey had survived; he'd have been eaten alive similar to Jeff Hardy 2003. No way would a washed-up, completely irrelevant Mr. Kennedy had been welcomed to any degree, other than to be absolutely humiliated by an ROH favorite.

Agree w/ all this and would add that it's hard to remember how truly different, important, and revolutionary ROH felt in the wrestling landscape of 2002-2006. Yes, we had TNA, but their booking has always been spotty and they always had a hard-on for washed up ex-WWE guys - both factors made TNA seem low-rate and, for lack of a better word, impure compared to ROH.

I'd never anything remotely close to matches like Danielson/Joe, Danielson/Nigel, and Joe/Ki because there simply wasn't anywhere you could unless you were a tape trader. I distinctly remember being blown away by just the chain wrestling in Danielson/Nigel from Unified. It also helped that everyone involved in ROH put everything they had into the company. Of course, there was the wrestling, but Gabe used to write pages just to get people hyped for a B-show. That level of effort was needed because the company was always on the verge of collapse in a way it hasn't been since Sinclair bought ROH.

Plus, ROH looked after the fans. I remember driving hours to a show in Dayton and got lost on the way because I was a dumb kid. I got there about 2 matches in and raced over to pick up my 4th row will-call ticket. The people staffing the table couldn't find it and could tell I was stressed and anxious to get into the show and they picked up a chair and put me in the front row.

BRM from the wrestling revolution captures what ROH was in that time in a fine column:

http://www.thewrestlingrevolution.com/u ... e.php?id=9
"In my humble opinion, Ring of Honor has been greatest wrestling promotion that has ever existed. Who else has given fans such a wonderful combination of in-ring action, characters, promos, storytelling, and booking with real, satisfying finishes and a reputation for innovation and excellence on such a consistent basis for so long? The over eight-year body of work from October 2003 through November 2011 put together by the wrestlers and bookers of Ring of Honor was a period of excellence in just about every aspect of the art form of professional wrestling unparalleled in history up to that point and likely never to be outdone or even equaled in the future. During this time ROH was the strong in-ring undercard of PWG, the creativity and optimal utilization of each individual talent of ECW, the willingness to expose audiences to foreign talent of WCW, the fealty to logic of your favorite territory, the roster depth of modern New Japan, the drive to prove that "we are the promotion you should be paying attention to" of the late 2004-2006 Dusty and D'Amore Era glory days of TNA, the "I can't wait to see what happens at the next show" atmosphere of Attitude Era WWF, and the devotion to superb action with clean satisfying finishes and no bullsh*t of 90's All-Japan, all rolled into one. "

[Montana]

Really good article by Big Red Machine.

Really captures what made ROH special in the 2000’s and where things changed. While I don’t agree with everything... It’s a good critical look at ROH, and certainly something ROH current management should read and analyze it.

While disagreeing with ROH commentary on Jay lethal, their goal was to project him on par or better than the ROH legends. What do you want the current announcers to say?? How much better Joe/Bryan/Punk are then Lethal when they haven’t been in the company in 5-10 years and little chance of returning.

Also disagreed on Evolve really taking over that spot. Yes, they got Keith Lee from ROh, but it was seen as a foot in the door to Wwe, where ROH was just a different destination. While, I enjoyed evolve, especially the live shows, it never was on Par with ROH, even at Evolves highest points. They did have the feel/spirit/effort of the old ROh days... in 2015 just too much competition. Plus never being stable to hold enough talent.

I think in 2021, I’m still a bit surprised by the lack of appreciation for ROH as a whole. I do think most of the hate, is just folks wanting more of the old ROH. While the spirit has changed, the overall product and vision hasn’t changed that much. The wrestling landscape has certainly changed. I hope the reset is the shoot in the arm ROH needs.

Also, hats off to Tony Kahn... as he’s putting his all into AEW. Good or bad... you can’t say he doesn’t try, and tries to do the right thing. He steps out from behind his desk, he’s likable. I feel like “the experience” is a step in the right direction, but also feels like as a leader Joe Koff needs to step up a bit more. He’s certainly made the right moves in 2020. Ian and Quinn really feel like the faces of ROH, and that’s not a bad thing at all... it’s just almost zero fans know who Joe Koff is. Maybe he doesn’t want to be the “old guy” holding back a hip/young product... but like ... you gotta push and promote the product.

[indyfan]

Can anyone confirm this...i read on Facebook that ROH mutes in ring promos from older shows? i only use honorclub for 2011 to present since i own all the dvds before this

[Montana]

From what i've seen....

The music is muted. They've updated the shows match by match; so stuff like good times good memories or backstage promos; havent been added. Not sure if/when they will. Think they are working on the matches for now is my guess. I assume there are a few in ring promos sprinkled in there, i just haven't seen any yet.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

[supersonic]

That's incredibly shitty to not even include backstage segments. Stick with the original DVDs... there are ways to get them.

[Shanahan]

From what i've seen....

The music is muted. They've updated the shows match by match; so stuff like good times good memories or backstage promos; havent been added. Not sure if/when they will. Think they are working on the matches for now is my guess. I assume there are a few in ring promos sprinkled in there, i just haven't seen any yet.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

Glad i have every dvd up until 2017.

[classic-cabana]

That's incredibly shitty to not even include backstage segments. Stick with the original DVDs... there are ways to get them.

Easy to get them pretty cheap as well, scroll past the ridiculously overpriced ones, they are there.

The way old shows are being put up is weird and probably not an ideal or pleasant viewing experience for a newer fan wanting to work through earlier years. Rather than complete shows (even with music muted and promos edited) its just individual matches you have to select, they don't autoplay. There's no flow to any of the shows.

[Montana]

My guess is they will add the promos and stitch things up; once all the matches are re-recorded. Although maybe they won't. I'd like them to simply have like one stream per show. The match select is nice too; but if you want to watch a full show; say Manhattan Mayhem; you have to click in individual matches. The other thing is that the shows are listing out of order. You'd have to look at the dates listed on each match; instead of just having the date on the show itself (Or numbering the shows in chronological order) These would be my bare minimum.

Probably quite a bit far fetched; but i think it would be pretty cool for ROH to try and edit in; modified music tunes for a majority of wrestlers. Add crowd noise. Maybe some new commentary as needed... or alternative commentary. Surely SBG could afford of A/V College interns to make it happen. Have a couple old & new announcers record generic lines for wrestlers entering the ring; OR dub old audio. Doesn't seem that difficult; but is it worth the effort to them??

OR just outsource the work of recording/uploading; someone would do it from home; for a reasonable cost i'm sure. Many people are stuck at home. I'd estimate it would take about 825 hours to re-record every live show from 2002-2010. That's about 5 months worth of work for 1 person at 40 hours. If you have a few people working it that time cuts down quick. Shouldn't take 10 months; but i assume they have someone like Ian; or a staff member doing it in their free time; for not enough compensation.

I also would have preferred they just start at 2002 and work forward from there.

Guess that's the end of my rant. Guess if nothing else we should we happy at least the matches are up there; for the most part.

[classic-cabana]

I also would have preferred they just start at 2002 and work forward from there.

They did. If you go to vault section on Honor Club there is Year One, first 10 shows up to Scramble Madness. "Full" shows, able to watch in one go without need to select relevant matches, so the intent was definitely there once upon a time.

Era of Honor Begins has most promos intact I believe (just scanned through now). Da Hit Squad/CSC stuff rightfully edited out.

I understand how time consuming it would be but when you're promoting your service as 'more than a network' I'd expect a bit more effort, especially when your library (as great as it is) is all you have.

[Montana]

I also would have preferred they just start at 2002 and work forward from there.

They did. If you go to vault section on Honor Club there is Year One, first 10 shows up to Scramble Madness. "Full" shows, able to watch in one go without need to select relevant matches, so the intent was definitely there once upon a time.

Era of Honor Begins has most promos intact I believe (just scanned through now). Da Hit Squad/CSC stuff rightfully edited out.

I understand how time consuming it would be but when you're promoting your service as 'more than a network' I'd expect a bit more effort, especially when your library (as great as it is) is all you have.

Interesting... Yeah, that's more what i was looking for. I thought they would put that under the ROH Event section; as that's where's they've been adding the matches. I wonder when they added that Year One material. I seemed to recall they had some limited content before 2020; when they were adding matches. Either way; 10 of 275 shows is kind of a drop in the bucket.

[Wavelet Transform]

Maybe some new commentary as needed... or alternative commentary.

Or, for an even better experience w/ the 2002 shows, an option to have no commentary.

Some (all?) of the 09 shows have a no commentary option and it makes for a different viewing experience. There've been times in ROH when the commentary has been exceptionally good and makes the product better (current product, the Prazak/Leonard years) and other times it actively detracts from the viewing experience (2002 shows, Corino/Kelly era).

[Montana]

2006 – Year in Review

Just finished watching all the events from 2006; and what a year it was. Surprisingly; (or maybe not) this was the most difficult year to watch and get through. I’ve seen several big 2006 events; and I’ve always thought 2006 was the best year for ROH; and it’s certainly arguable. 2006 has many iconic moments for the promotion. The fan base is rabid at this point, and ROH was hitting on a lot of cylinders, despite losing a major star in CM Punk in 2005. Why was it difficult in watching?? Not sure if it was just the increase in shows; OR more other wrestling back on. I think more the latter. Either way;

The Good:

ROH vs. CZW feud and Cage of Death - Everything about this was perfect; and one of the best angles in wrestling history. An invasion angle done right, go figure. The grand finale was outstanding as well.
Awesome shows: (Better than our Best, Unified, Final Battle, etc , etc) Think you have some of the most stacked shows In ROH history. Arguably the best shows in history.
Great Feuds (Danielson / Nigel, Homicide vs Cabana / Cornette vs. Homicide, ROH vs. CZW, Jacob vs. Whitmer) - Again; some of the best feuds in the history of wrestling, not just ROH.
Danielson making stars with his title reign - While BD had a very good title reign; I wouldn’t classify it as “special”. The first half of 2006; the ROH /CZW feud dominated the main event angle; and while he was champion; not all title defenses were special to me. The second half it certainly picked up. What was MORE special about his run ; but getting other wrestlers over. Working with Nigel and Homicide. Those guys were insanely over after, and BD had helped elevate them.
Davey Richards - He was good since day 1, in my opinion. I like his style/ intensity. Thought he was a great addition to an already stacked roster.
Dragon Gate 6 man - Amazing match, need I say more.
Homicide and Nigel - As mentioned in the Danielson comment, these guys got WAY over. Homicide was on an Steve Austin like push; too bad that didn't end up better.
Roster additions (El Generico, Eddie Edwards, Jason Blade, Davey Richards, Brent Albright, Shingo, Kenta, larry Sweeny, Chris Hero) They’ve added some really talented wrestlers this year.

The OK -

Samoa Joe - He was used pretty good in 2006; but certainly not the “star” of the show in 2006. In sure him being in TNA played a role in that. An amazing wrestler; just the year didn’t revolve around him as much.
The Tag Title scene - I have mixed feelings on this. Some of the time this was really good; and other times; it was just kinda there. Aires/Strong had a solid run; but never the focal point. King of wrestling and Daniels/Sydal were worthy champions as well; but just wasn’t on par with the Best of what ROH had going on in 2006, IMO.
Jimmy Rave - Really good worker here in 2006; and seems like the fans still didn’t really respect him. Seems like a relevant storyline here could have gone a long way for him. Hell, maybe even winning SOTF this year.

The Bad
Jim Cornette’s mouth - A majority of his statements has aged REALLY bad. I’m not an overly sensitive person; but a lot of what he said then, can’t be said today. A bad look, looking back.
ROH Students - While I see why they are valuable to ROH; they just were about 3-4 steps behind the current roster. It’s typically not hard to tell who can be a star in the business; and it seems like the door is open to anyone that pays, is what I felt.
Delirious - I’ve got mixed feeling on this too. It’s not SO MUCH , that we won survival of the fittest; it’s more WHO he beat; and What they did with him after he won. He literally won the title shot; and without 30-40 he was beat by Steve Corino right before his title shot with Bryan Danielson , where he lost too. Seemed like Austin Aires would be the better choice here.



All in all 2006 was an excellent year; but had it flaws like every other year. I think you can really argue 2004/05/06 were all the greatest years and only personal preference on what is truly the best. They finished the year with a red hot Homicide winning the title so ROH SHOULD have a lot of momentum heading into 2007. I did start to see some things in 2006; that worries me a little for the future. More students, more women’s wrestling.. on the other hand; how do you even follow up a year like this. Excited to see guys like : Homicide, Nigel, Rave, Delirious, Danielson, in 2007!

[indyfan]

Man... 2006 is my favourite year but yeah theres so many shows. I loved Jimmy Jacobs character development as it started in 2006 as it went through into 2007.

[DougN]

All in all 2006 was an excellent year; but had it flaws like every other year. I think you can really argue 2004/05/06 were all the greatest years and only personal preference on what is truly the best. They finished the year with a red hot Homicide winning the title so ROH SHOULD have a lot of momentum heading into 2007. I did start to see some things in 2006; that worries me a little for the future. More students, more women’s wrestling.. on the other hand; how do you even follow up a year like this. Excited to see guys like : Homicide, Nigel, Rave, Delirious, Danielson, in 2007!

Love this write-up. Excellent stuff. Quick thoughts:

ROH vs CZW is literally the best inter-promotional feud of all time and ROH used it to elevate their own stars in a direct and meaningful way.

Disagree on Davey Richards. I thought he was one of the worst parts of 2006 in my eyes and the KENTA protege angle was very cringe-y to me. Once he did a tag team with Rocky and then Eddie, he improved leaps and bounds. But before that, he just felt like a guy copying Japanese wrestling with no context. And before anyone says anything, I know the same thing can be said about a lot of ROH guys and indy wrestling in general, but Davey very blatantly does this and in hindsight, you can see the different stages of him in 2006 vs 2011 and see why it didn't work.

Adding Chris Hero to the mix in 2006 is low key one of the best decisions in ROH history. There's this weird history of him and Gabe. Hero thinks Gabe didn't book him because he already had Punk, Cabana, and Ace Steel, but there have been rumblings for 20 years that Gabe slammed his style of wrestling. And Hero did change in ROH, but regardless, Hero in ROH was amazing and much needed.

Samoa Joe in 2006 is kind of sad at times because you can see him holding back in matches. I get why. I understand everything. It's just sad at times.

I liked the tag scene, but it wasn't the stacked division it would become in 2007, 2008, and onward. I did like the storyline they started playing up sometime in the early summer (timeline could be off) where they said none of the champions had lost in 2006 yet. Made it all feel special.

Jim Cornette -- he's just aged bad in general. I'm going to be super jaded considering how he corrupted the company when he had control. Less said about Cornette, the better.

ROH students -- agree for sure. I didn't mind them too much, but it's kind of telling that the only one to ever get actually good from the ROH school was Rhett Titus. A lot of the other guys are super enjoyable, but were never anything special. There was this weird trend in the early 2000s where if you had five years of experience, you were deemed okay to be the head trainer of a wrestling school. CM Punk debuted in March of 1999 and less than five years later, he was head trainer of the ROH Dojo. And Punk is awesome, I just find it odd that you would want to be trained by someone still considered new to the scene. It's not just him. Danielson was head trainer of some California school in 2001.

Delirious -- I loved his run with Danielson for the belt. I thought it was amazing. But I have to agree -- him winning Survival Of The Fittest was dumb. My gut feeling is they did that because Danielson was hurt during the time period and it would be an "easier" match than having Matt Sydal win. Of the card though, Jimmy Rave probably should have won so it could have given more legs to his feud with Nigel. I'd say Jimmy Rave, Matt Sydal, or even Davey Richards, who I didn't like but was clearly being groomed for the future.

Overall, I think ROH was at its best from Manhattan Mayhem 2005 (or around there) to Final Battle 2008 (right before Adam Pearce started throwing shit at the wall). Of this peak though, 2006 stands out as a HUGE milestone for them (see what I did there?). A lot of it comes from Danielson. I did think his title reign was special. It had so much buzz when it was going on and I think 2006 was the biggest year for DVD sales in company history. I could be wrong -- I think Shane Hagadorn said that somewhere. Joe-Kobashi sold more individually, but in 2006, practically every card was must see on DVD. Outside of Danielson though, it just felt like a lot of guys were really coming into their own -- Nigel, Briscoes, Claudio, Sydal, Jimmy Jacobs -- and there were a ton of new faces that made you excited about the future.

My only true negative on 2006 is that after Glory By Honor, a lot of the momentum was lost. I think it stems from people expecting KENTA to win the title there and when he didn't, they knew it was going to be Homicide at Final Battle so it took a lot of the urgency out of the shows in between. But there's still some top-notch stuff there that it doesn't bring down 2006 as a whole.

[Wavelet Transform]

I don't see mentions of the "who's the best champion" storyline that was running for first 8 months or so of 2006. This was around the time I got into ROH and thought it was cool, liked that there were viable arguments for all three. Also always enjoyed Gabe's cheesy shilling of it on commentary "ROH has the BEST champions! WHO will be able to take the belts off of these GREAT champions?". In retrospect, Nigel was never dethroning Dragon in the U.K., but the build was great. Nigel beats Dragon at Pure Rules, Dragon beats Nigel in a straight match, rubber match to see who the best is.

Tag title scene was awesome in 06 too, major rebound from 05. Aries/Strong re-establish the credibility of the belts with great matches and beat everyone until the evil CZW team shocks the world and steals the titles. The Daniels/Sydal reign was unnecessary - could have just put the belts on the Briscoes after KoW, but I guess the Briscoes needed to heels for the matches w/ Joe/Homicide.

Incidentally, the Briscoes feuding w/ like half the roster around August/September of 06 is another great little gem of a storyline.

[DougN]

Briscoes became the Briscoes we know and love in 2006. They were really solid and good before, but they took it up a level in 2006 and then got the ball in 2007.

[Chrisvegas27]

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[indyfan]

Briscoes became the Briscoes we know and love in 2006. They were really solid and good before, but they took it up a level in 2006 and then got the ball in 2007.

Yeah i can agree with this. i loved their stuff until they left in 2004. But when they came back, they just belted out great matches with everyone

[Montana]

Finished watching the Table match between Brent Albright and BJ Whitmer; and i knew it was a good match; but i'm still impressed. That has to be the best tables match i've seen. Such a great match, that gets kinda lost of the history of ROH.

[DougN]

Brent Albright is a guy that got lost in the shuffle in ROH. He was like a better version of Michael Elgin to me, not in style or look, but in role within ROH.