Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

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Big Red Machine
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

BurningHammer wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote:What in the hell was the purpose of booking Briscoes vs. PBK to go to a no-contest?

Hell... we had six matches on that show that were announced in advance, and of those we had one no-contest and one f*cking distraction finish. Can we please stop it with this stupid bullsh*t dirty booking? Like.. does Delirious really think that in 2017 people are going to be outraged that Cole distracted Daniels and caused him to lose a wrestling match and thus will buy the PPV? COME ON! Just let the #1 contender beat the jobbers with the terrible name and have Cole attack him after the match or something if you want to do an angle.
Why are these booking decisions bad, to me they make sense and actually promote and help story lines/characters running through shows, the fact is just attacking him after the match is just bullshit samey booking as the other stuff you are being annoyed about. These types of booking just satisfy everyone involved. You seems to think wrestlers aren't the ones being a problem here and it's just Delirious.
Specific to Briscoes vs. PBK? Because Lee is LEAVING THE COMPANY so why the hell wouldn't you have him put someone over on his way out?
As for the general complaint: because ROH was built on clean finishes. That's that the "Honor" in "Ring of Honor" means. There differences between having Cole cause Daniels to lose via distraction and having Daniels win and then Cole attacking him after the match:
1. Daniels, the #1 contender, wins his match
2. We get a clean finish
3. I don't know about you, but for me, there is a lot more heat in assaulting a man who has just wrestled a match than there is in showing up and not touching him, and him losing because he got distracted.
As for me assuming that Delirious is the problem and not the wrestlers: HE'S THE BOOKER. It's his job to determine the finishes.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

BurningHammer wrote:
Brada wrote:Not booked. Weird. Dirty Andy Dalton did a great job teaming with Titus. They actually let him get quite a bit of offense in against War Machine. He might be worth looking at.
He has improved a lot since his time in Noah, he really found his aggression and also his body and it's helped him alot and I think he has something to give any promotion now. I would certainly like to him more of him now and I hope that's going to come.
Has he stopped doing those stupid "dirty" spots like licking shoes and crap?
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by BurningHammer »

Big Red Machine wrote:
BurningHammer wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote:What in the hell was the purpose of booking Briscoes vs. PBK to go to a no-contest?

Hell... we had six matches on that show that were announced in advance, and of those we had one no-contest and one f*cking distraction finish. Can we please stop it with this stupid bullsh*t dirty booking? Like.. does Delirious really think that in 2017 people are going to be outraged that Cole distracted Daniels and caused him to lose a wrestling match and thus will buy the PPV? COME ON! Just let the #1 contender beat the jobbers with the terrible name and have Cole attack him after the match or something if you want to do an angle.
Why are these booking decisions bad, to me they make sense and actually promote and help story lines/characters running through shows, the fact is just attacking him after the match is just bullshit samey booking as the other stuff you are being annoyed about. These types of booking just satisfy everyone involved. You seems to think wrestlers aren't the ones being a problem here and it's just Delirious.
Specific to Briscoes vs. PBK? Because Lee is LEAVING THE COMPANY so why the hell wouldn't you have him put someone over on his way out?
As for the general complaint: because ROH was built on clean finishes. That's that the "Honor" in "Ring of Honor" means. There differences between having Cole cause Daniels to lose via distraction and having Daniels win and then Cole attacking him after the match:
1. Daniels, the #1 contender, wins his match
2. We get a clean finish
3. I don't know about you, but for me, there is a lot more heat in assaulting a man who has just wrestled a match than there is in showing up and not touching him, and him losing because he got distracted.
As for me assuming that Delirious is the problem and not the wrestlers: HE'S THE BOOKER. It's his job to determine the finishes.
The thing is with clean finishes you need excellent booking to carry it over to really form stories and generally you aren't going to get that in any promotion, "shitty" booking like this just allows for stories to easily progress, this is one situation where Kayfabe really hurts everyone because in all honesty you should be pissed at the wrestler and honestly you probably would be if you didn't know about a booker.

As for AD I still think he has those little bits he does but considering how it all works in Japan, it kind of really get him over, it's never really been a huge issue for me, his ring work I just never dug but like I saw his Noah stuff and it really moved him a level and hopefully that transfers into his US stuff.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

BurningHammer wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote:
BurningHammer wrote:
Why are these booking decisions bad, to me they make sense and actually promote and help story lines/characters running through shows, the fact is just attacking him after the match is just bullshit samey booking as the other stuff you are being annoyed about. These types of booking just satisfy everyone involved. You seems to think wrestlers aren't the ones being a problem here and it's just Delirious.
Specific to Briscoes vs. PBK? Because Lee is LEAVING THE COMPANY so why the hell wouldn't you have him put someone over on his way out?
As for the general complaint: because ROH was built on clean finishes. That's that the "Honor" in "Ring of Honor" means. There differences between having Cole cause Daniels to lose via distraction and having Daniels win and then Cole attacking him after the match:
1. Daniels, the #1 contender, wins his match
2. We get a clean finish
3. I don't know about you, but for me, there is a lot more heat in assaulting a man who has just wrestled a match than there is in showing up and not touching him, and him losing because he got distracted.
As for me assuming that Delirious is the problem and not the wrestlers: HE'S THE BOOKER. It's his job to determine the finishes.
The thing is with clean finishes you need excellent booking to carry it over to really form stories and generally you aren't going to get that in any promotion, "shitty" booking like this just allows for stories to easily progress, this is one situation where Kayfabe really hurts everyone because in all honesty you should be pissed at the wrestler and honestly you probably would be if you didn't know about a booker.
The thing is that I don't see these sorts of finishes as progressing stories at all. The story is that Cole is the challenger and Daniels wants his title. How does Cole distracting Daniels to cause him to lose a meaningless match to someone else affect that story in any way? 99% of the dirty finishes we get in ROH nowadays will at best tread water, never mind the ones like this one that don't actually do anything. I don't mind dirty finishes when it advances the story (though I'd prefer to avoid something really crappy like a DQ in the main event except on rare occasions). The match between War Machine and The Addiction at War of the Worlds Tour: NYC had a good finish for where they wanted to go. But that's not what we get in ROH most of the time nowadays. We get dirty finishes that exist solely for the purpose of being a dirty finish and could be avoided by just doing a post-match angle instead (or in other cases just not booking the guys in question against each other)... and you don't even have to do any angle at all. What's wrong with just having Daniels win and cut a promo? I realize that that doesn't progress the story either (other than Daniels winning matches going into PPV puts him on a hot streak and makes him seem more likely to win), but at least it's a clean finish.

Yes, the death of kayfabe has hurt the business in this way, but a good booker can adapt with the times. People don't like "dirty" finishes or DQs or count-outs nowadays, so a good booker will minimize the amount of them he/she books, and especially somewhere like ROH that is built on the promise of not having them.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Memphis Mark »

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
They should not have book Lee at all. The best thing to would have been for Taylor to come and say Lee was afraid of the Briscoes and no showed . Then , Taylor new partner could have hit the ring and starting brawling with the Briscoes... Plenty of talent in Texas that could have booked just for one or two shots.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

Memphis Mark wrote:
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
They should not have book Lee at all. The best thing to would have been for Taylor to come and say Lee was afraid of the Briscoes and no showed . Then , Taylor new partner could have hit the ring and starting brawling with the Briscoes... Plenty of talent in Texas that could have booked just for one or two shots.
Or they could actually deliver on the advertised match and have the guy on the way out do the job, then do this exact same thing on the next show.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by AlexROH »

Both VODs from Dallas and San Antonio are now available at ROHWreslting.com
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Brada »

Alex, I'm interested in your thoughts on Fish-Rush when you get the chance to watch it.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by AlexROH »

Brada wrote:Alex, I'm interested in your thoughts on Fish-Rush when you get the chance to watch it.
I'm going to star the ME of Undisputed Legacy. Here in Spain is 23:30h, so I'll watch Honor Reigns Supreme tomorrow, I hope.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by AlexROH »

The card of Undisputed Legacy looked pretty good; but in the end, I didn't like the show at all. It wasn't the worst show I've ever seen or something like that; but all felt average. The Riccabonni/Silas duo on commentary worked. I like them. Ian is a better commentator than I first thought. Hope Silas Young isn't regular. He does it well, but after his hard work at the end od 2016 I would love to see him in a good position as a wrestler in the card.

1. Gresham vs Ferrara [***1/4] - This was the surprise of the night. Gresham is an awesome wrestler and he made Ferrara look great. Well-worked match with a cool and different finish. I wish ROH would give Jonathan better matches.

2. Tempura Boyz vs Addiction [***] - Fun little match. It's weird to see The Addiction working full babyface; but Daniels looks so happy with his role. Sho & Yo started bad in ROH, but now they are getting used to the north american style. Good match. I don't like this thing of someone distracting his rival during the match and then going for a Roll-Up win. Post-match was interesting with some tension between Kaz and Daniels.

3. The Kingdom vs War Machine & Jax Dane [***1/2] - Solid title match. I really like The Kingdom. Taven is a great midcarder, TK O'Ryan has a bright future and Marseglia... urgh. I think he is a nice wrestler, but oh, I hate so much his "character" (?). I don't know who the hell told him that doing the idiot in the ring and look like a stupid was a good thing. Everybody worked fine; Dane is still a bad wrestler, but when he is teaming with other two wrestlers he only have to do his thing. The only problem I have with this is that Rowe is possible leaving. He's the better man in War Machine and I would hate soooooooo much seeing Hanson & Dane as War Machine 2.0.

4. Lethal vs Castle vs Fish [***] - This was the most dissapointing match of the night. I felt very frustrated. This had the potential to be MOTN and they gave only 9 FUCKING MINUTES to their TOP CONTENDERS match. Oh men! I'm so angry with this. Action was fine, but nothing special. A slow spotfest.

5. Romantic Touch vs BJ Whiter [**] - Funny for what it was. Your standard intermission match. Now that Kevin Sullivan has left ROH, I hope we can see a great heel tag team in BJ & Punishment. I think it could be something interesting.

6. The Briscoes vs Lee/Taylor [***1/4] - I've read a lot of bad thing about the end of this match. For me, it wasn't something bad and it made a lot of sense. The match was what you can expect from these two team, a brawl. At the end, as we've seen in the past, Briscoes and PBK "needed" to go to another level and used chairs and tables. I liked Taylor's work. I don't see him as a singles wrestlers, but he could be fine in a trio or with the correct tag team partner. Lee said goodbye to ROH with the classic spot throught a table.

7. Donovan Dijak vs Cody [***3/4] - MOTN. Great neck work by Cody. Great sellying by Dijak. Solid well structured match. I'm not the biggest fan of Cody Rhodes, but he worked fine here. Btw, I've always talked gold about Dijak and it makes me feel sad see him leaving. Hope he gets a good push in EVOLVE.

8. Bullet Club vs MCMG [***] - Meeeeeeeeeh. This was a spotfest, the talent was there, but it was kindda boring. Aside from Lio and White, everybody was working slower aka house show mode. I'm tired of this Bullet Club thing and I'm tired of Adam Cole's laziness in the ring. They are good wrestlers, but we need a storyline. ROH needs to do more segments, promos and all that kind of stuff in order to get people invested in their feuds and storylines. Whitout that the matches feel empity. They need to work in some storylines. Lio & White are great as tag team and I hope this new Generation Next or MCMG Army works. Adam Page is pretty good too, the finish stretch was awesome with Page doing at the same time the assisted Tombstone and Rite of Passage.

Don't waste your money with this show. It isn't bad but it isn't worth 2 and a half hours of your life. Hope Honor Reigns Supreme is better than this.

Final Rating: 5,5 / 10.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by The Dragon Saga »

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
Here's a question... if you were Keith Lee, would you have allowed yourself to take the pin? Would you have agreed to do the job? Do you not think that Gabe would have spoken to Lee about how to deal with that situation should it arise?
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by trufreedom »

The Dragon Saga wrote:
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
Here's a question... if you were Keith Lee, would you have allowed yourself to take the pin? Would you have agreed to do the job? Do you not think that Gabe would have spoken to Lee about how to deal with that situation should it arise?
I could see this if Lee and Taylor had jobbed to Ferrara and Cheeseburger, sure. But there's not a tag team in the country that loses any credibility jobbing to the Briscoes.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

The Dragon Saga wrote:
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
Here's a question... if you were Keith Lee, would you have allowed yourself to take the pin? Would you have agreed to do the job? Do you not think that Gabe would have spoken to Lee about how to deal with that situation should it arise?
Other than it's been an established tradition for decades that guys going out the door get pinned, I think someone getting protected going out the door is ridiculous.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

The Dragon Saga wrote:
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
Here's a question... if you were Keith Lee, would you have allowed yourself to take the pin? Would you have agreed to do the job? Do you not think that Gabe would have spoken to Lee about how to deal with that situation should it arise?
I'm pretty sure Gabe (or any other modern promoter) would have told him to do whatever the booker says.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by The Dragon Saga »

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
The Dragon Saga wrote:
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:It's cut and dried. Delirious fucked up. Lee should have gotten pinned and had the living shit beat out of him by The Briscoes. Would lend more credence to Taylor getting a new partner.
Here's a question... if you were Keith Lee, would you have allowed yourself to take the pin? Would you have agreed to do the job? Do you not think that Gabe would have spoken to Lee about how to deal with that situation should it arise?
Other than it's been an established tradition for decades that guys going out the door get pinned, I think someone getting protected going out the door is ridiculous.
It's Gabe. Gabe would cut off his right hand if it meant an ROH show went wrong.
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by AlexROH »

Well, I've just finished Honor Reigns Supreme. Such an entertaining show. Good first half with a phew interesting things and an awesome second half with Lio vs Fish being my favourite match of the weekend. There was a new guy announcing the matches (during Undisputed Legacy was the same that was as SOTF last year). His name is Ricky. For being his first time he wasn't bad at all. Riccabonni/Young on commentary again. Good work again. Now let talk about the matches:

1. Dijak vs Castle [***1/4] - Fine opener. Knowing that it was one of the last two matches of Dijak made me feel sad. I would have loved to see him in a bigger or better match. You see here your standard opener. Castle is getting strong victories going into the title match at SCOH, but his matches aren't good at all. He works in house show mode everytime. He needs a great match against a great wrestler, like he had with Roddy 1-2 years ago (oh, I miss Roddy a lot). Fun for what it was.

2. War Machine vs Andy Dalton & Titus [***] - Better match than I expected. Andy Dalton worked his ass off. He moves pretty well in-ring. Loved his selling.

3. Cody & Cole vs The Addiction [***] - Ergh, it was a match. I hate so much seeing Cody do a promo in the middle of the match. Why the hell do you have to do an easy promo in the middle of the match? It makes no sense to me. Plus, people still love Cody and he doesn't work well the matches as heel. This surprisme a lot, bc his work as heel in WWE was pretty good. Adam Cole getting another victory doesn't feel well. They are bulding the Anniversary match like Daniels is winning the whole thing. You know, he always loose and all of that stuff. Hope Save_Us_Kaz appears and cost him the title. He works well (Daniels) but he's old and doesn't need a world title run in 2017. Average match.

4. Hangman Page vs Jay Lethal [***1/4] - These two have great chemistry in the ring. Lethal is a great wrestler and Hangman Page looked motivated here. I still think he has a lot of potential to be a great mid-uppercarder. Entertaining match. The problem here is the BC shitty interferences and the time (it was just 8-10 minutes long). They tried to sell this as a big win for Page, but it wasn't.

5. Ferrara vs Sho vs Gresham vs Dane [**] - This was one of the strangest Four Corner Survival matches I've ever seen, because of the random people here. Classic formula with the three little guys working against the big guy. I hate Dane. He is BAD in the ring. He just do a bad spear and a fucking awful Samoan Drop. Hope Gresham start getting better matches soon.

6. Bobby Fish vs Lio Rush [****] - Amazing match! Finally some great ROH wrestling in 2017. These are two of the best wrestlers in the company and worked a big match. It was (more or less) a 20 minute match. Fish did his limbwork to the leg. Lio sold everything great and did a great comeback. Great job in commentary calling the moment when Fish had Lio in the Knee Bar, both Silas and Ian remembered well the SOTF finals. The last Super Falcon Arrow looked fuking amazing. Go a see the match, Lio Rush is the future of wrestling!

7. The Kingdom vs Search & Destroy [***1/2] - Sabin, Shelley & White had a ton of great matches in the last two/three months of 2016. I was really looking to this title match and they delivered. Jay White had another awesome performance and The Kingdom worked as a union. I like the trio a lot. The finish made sense. I think Search & Destroy are going to be the next champs, but they are waiting for a bigger stage, like a PPV or something, so the DQ was the right decission. Another match, with a clean finish and more time should be awesome.

Cody/Lethal segment - Cody is out to introduce the Bucks, just like he did during the main event in SA. Lethal came and the brawl in the crowd. I liked their little match at FB. It looks like they are building a final match, a Street Fight or something like that. It would be a cool way to end their feud and give Lethal a big victory again. I don't when will this match take place, Anniversary? SCOH? Manhattan Mayhem?

8. Briscoes vs Bucks [***3/4] - Good, not great, main event. When The Briscoes and The Young Bucks are facing you know they are going to give you a great match. I was looking for something more, I mean, they've had a lot of great matches before and I thought this was going to be better. The first fall was a fine tag match. The auto-DQ of the second fall made sense too. The Briscoes said on their promo (the one with Papa Briscoe in their house) that they'll force DQ if they could because they prefer a No DQ. Last fall was the problem for me. Yeah, there was a lot of cool spots and nearfalls, but all the interferences (again Page) and the ref bumbs... It's a No DQ match, but it felt unnecessary, IMO. Again, it's a good match, maybe you'll enjoy more if you love No DQ matches, but it wasn't my cup of tea. At least they gave them like 25 minutes, which is cool.

Good show by ROH here. It wasn't the best VOD I've seen, but it entertained me a lot. The first part is a little average, as I said before, and the last three matches are awesome (in differents ways, that is always something cool).

Final rating: 7 / 10
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

The Dragon Saga wrote:
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
The Dragon Saga wrote: Here's a question... if you were Keith Lee, would you have allowed yourself to take the pin? Would you have agreed to do the job? Do you not think that Gabe would have spoken to Lee about how to deal with that situation should it arise?
Other than it's been an established tradition for decades that guys going out the door get pinned, I think someone getting protected going out the door is ridiculous.
It's Gabe. Gabe would cut off his right hand if it meant an ROH show went wrong.
Do we have any evidence for this, or are we just making assumptions?
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

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AlexROH wrote:Well, I've just finished Honor Reigns Supreme. There was a new guy announcing the matches (during Undisputed Legacy was the same that was as SOTF last year). His name is Ricky. For being his first time he wasn't bad at all.
I haven's seen the VOD yet Alex, but I was live at the show. I am surprised you thought that. This guy was VERY uncomfortable in his role. After the first 2 matches, he had to be directed by Riccaboni all night, his pitch was bad, he referred to falls as "bouts" in the briscoes-bucks match, he tried to announce Jax Dane before they even cued his music, without trying to be mean to the kid, he was just really out of his element.

Hopefully moving forward, there will be a different face handling the ring announcing duties when Bobby Cruise isn't scheduled. I hope the new guy gets more favorable reviews. ;)
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Re: Official Undisputed Legacy/Honor Reigns Supreme Thread

Post by Brada »

AlexROH wrote:

2. War Machine vs Andy Dalton & Titus [***] - Better match than I expected. Andy Dalton worked his ass off. He moves pretty well in-ring. Loved his selling.
Agreed one thousand percent. Andy Dalton should be in the TPT this weekend without a doubt. Give this guy a deal ROH. He is the PERFECT example of a good indy talent with experience just sitting out there, ripe for the taking....they should jump on him now.
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