Why I'm Taking a Break

[Burnside]

After drifting away when Gabe left, I caught up with ROH again in late 2010 and have been watching faithfully ever since. I ordered every big show. I stuck with it through all the iPPV fiascos, the Cocomore Drupals, Joe Koff's "What do they expect for $15? They spend more than that at Starbucks", Mike Mondo's bitch sticks, Elgin's title run, all of Veda Scott's angles that went nowhere, the good and the bad. There was always enough to keep me interested.

There isn't enough right now, so I'm going to take a break. I thought I'd try to explain some of the reasons why.

1. Too many channel-changing characters. Anytime I see the Corino/Sullivan shit, Brutal Bob and Tough Tom or whatever that kid's name is, or anything Cheeseburger-related, I can't skip past it quickly enough. This stuff is getting a lot of time and it's just the dirt worst. Prince Nana and Veda Scott are also useless wastes of time - I've been trained by ROH to believe their angles don't matter and will never pay off in anything.

2. Awful, awful commentary. I'm a little behind with the TV. I watched the Lethal-O'Reilly title match last night. O'Reilly's shoulder had been injured by Cole earlier in the night. Everyone had urged him to call off this match and live to fight another day due to the bad arm, but he insisted on wrestling. The very clear, simple story of the first 10 minutes of this match was that Lethal felt bad about O'Reilly's injury and didn't want to take advantage of it and was trying not to target the arm. Because he was going easy on O'Reilly, O'Reilly kept getting offense on him. This was an important part of the face turn for Lethal. Kevin Kelly completely failed to notice or call this very simple and clear in-ring story. This lousy job is par for the course for Kelly who is such a WWF-style guy and never learned to focus on psychology or just the match in general. He is a Jim Ross wannabe who lacks everything that made Ross great.

3. Too many old guys. When the Sinclair Era started the average age of a guy on the roster had to be like 25 or 26. You had a few veterans (Corino, Haas, Benjamin) in the mix but that was really it and they stood out because of it. Now the upper midcard, particularly the tag division, is just clogged with these guys in their mid-to-late 30s and older on the downside of their careers (Kazarian, Shelley, Sabin, Kenny King, Caprice Coleman, Corino, Whitmer, etc.) Most of these guys consistently under-deliver in the ring, take spots that could go to more exciting talent, and aren't drawing anybody to the shows or attracting any PPV buys. And they're jobbing out their young talent to protect these people. It feels like they're there because of who they know, not what they bring, and ROH has never worked like that. If it were up to me I'd keep Christopher Daniels, Bobby Fish, and Silas Young (who can still go and are over), and Whitmer (one of the few actual heels they have). Everybody else over 35 needs to leave.

4. I want to say get a new booker but the Lethal/Cole/O'Reilly stuff is pretty great. I think Delirious can really only do one good angle at a time, though, so maybe somebody else should be booking the undercard. You can tell that shit like The Cabinet is going to take months and months to go absolutely nowhere.

5. Actually, fire Delirious. I just noticed that the latest idea for Jay Briscoe is that he and Mark are teaming with Toru fucking Yano to go after the 6-man titles. Jay Briscoe in any other promotion would be positioned as the #1 or #2 biggest draw. The Briscoes are a main event tag act. Jay Briscoe is a main event singles act. Toru Yano is an opening match comedy jobber. Like it or not, what this team says is "ROH's top guys = NJPW's bottom guys". To be clear: the 6-man titles aren't an inherently good or bad idea. If booked well, it can be good. If not, it won't.

6. Kyle O'Reilly's babyface character isn't emotionally connecting with anybody and won't work as the main event champ they're going to position him as in 2017. There are a lot of Davey Richards-esque warning signs.

[187_Joeism]

It was always fun arguing with you, hope you can find something else that you can enjoy and be positive with.

Something you mention are not going to change because ROH is a different company and it was back in the day and having to sign guys to contracts + having TV changes everything you can have a young roster and put them on TV you need people with experience and MCMG has been the best tag team thus far this year (One last arguee ). I had to take a break myself and finally release that even with is called the same this not the same ROH that one was and it never will be so is a case of if you can enjoy the current ROH or not because i don´t see much change happening with a different booker, they run the company the way they run it now.

[Wilson]

6 INSANE Reasons to Take a Break from ROH that You Should Know About

You did a good job capitulating the product’s current flaws, and you were even pretty generous about it too! Perhaps what’s worse is that I feel pretty certain that ROH will resist any large changes, as their internal team shrinks while still accruing more responsibilities. As the frontrunner for the Worst Weekly TV Program award and with dilatory storylines, now seems like a mighty good time separate from the product.

The ad-libbing-in-relation-to-wrestling-references demimonde is vastly robbed by your leave. See you in the great ROHWORLD FANTASY LEAGUE OF TRIUMPH in the sky.

[Brian1027]

Ever since the wrestlemania weekend shows this year I haven't taken so much of a break as just haven't been following as much. The TV hasn't been that good when I watch and the roster isn't what it used to be. And I'm not even comparing the roster to like the Gabe days I mean it isn't even as good as like 2012. I'm really scared whats going to happen to the company when/if the WWE signs a couple of guys who's contracts run out next.

When I think about why the roster isn't as good as it used to be I say "well NXT, LU, and Evolve are also signing guys to contracts where they can't work ROH," but then you see these guys that aren't signed to any of them who look great like Chris Dickinson or JT Dunn or Jason Kincaid and it's like why isn't ROH going after these dudes and instead using people like Caprice Coleman who can barely put on a good match.

I don't know what ROH needs right now, whether it's a new booker or not I can't say. Hopefully they figure things out soon though. It seems like things are sort of starting to change as I love them bringing in Scurll, Ospreay, and Dragon Lee, but if they don't have anyone good on the ROH roster to fight against then it means nothing.

[KL_]

I wonder why you didn't mention the 6-man titles in separate point
I don't think it's a big surprise that someone is taking a break from ROH. I am watching ROH and I will be, but 2016 is not good for Ring of Honor.

[Big Red Machine]

Hopefully they do something to win you back soon.

You did a good job capitulating the product’s current flaws, and you were even pretty generous about it too! Perhaps what’s worse is that I feel pretty certain that ROH will resist any large changes, as their internal team shrinks while still accruing more responsibilities.

This is the scary part.

[famicommander]

You make some points I agree with and some others I don't, but ultimately you don't have to justify your preferences to the rest of us. If ROH doesn't do it for you anymore, you don't owe it to them to keep watching.

Personally, I still think ROH's overall product is leagues better than WWE, NXT, TNA, or AAA and marginally better than CMLL. NJPW and LU are the kings for me as far as major promotions go, but ROH is still solid entertainment for me.

I wish Noah and AJPW were easier to follow for an American.

And then you have what are essentially still indies getting national exposure like Lucha Libre Elite and Paragon Pro Wrestling.

[Big Red Machine]

I wish Noah and AJPW were easier to follow for an American.

I actually found NOAH to be rather easy to follow last year. It's been much tougher this year. The Suzuki-Gun vs. NOAH framework definitely helps, though.

[famicommander]

I meant hard to follow in the sense that I find it difficult to consistently find their shows, not difficult to actually follow the action or story.

[WHG]

Sorry to see you go, Burnside. I've always enjoyed your posts more than virtually any other poster here. You've always brought fair opinions (agreed or not) and articulated them well.

I took a bit of a subconscious break this summer. I hardly watched the TV and BITW was the only show I ordered after Global Wars. The Lethal/Cole build got me back into it and I've been watching the TV every week, but I still haven't been getting every VOD (I ordered every one in 2014 & 2015). The new talent has me more hopeful than I've been in a while.

The great points you made were the cringy characters and the age of the roster. I agree with both of those points. The Cabinet has been terrible. The age thing happened gradually, but is really bad. It'd be interesting to look at the average age of the core roster from year to year. I bet it's as high as it's ever been. I think the AJ Styles return kind of innocently started it. He left TNA and showed up in ROH and it was great. Then Daniels came back and we were all excited to see Bad Influence in ROH. Then Shelley and Sabin (who I really liked, too) return...and ANX...and before you know it we're kind of ironically feeling like late 2000's TNA when they had a good young roster, but a bunch of older bigger names showed up and took the spotlight at the expense of the young guys.

Hope to see you back soon. More importantly, I hope something changes because they're driving fans away right now and it's becoming apparent in the attendance numbers.

[Big Red Machine]

I meant hard to follow in the sense that I find it difficult to consistently find their shows, not difficult to actually follow the action or story.

Ah. I can usually find one every two months or so on DailyMotion.

[BlackLesnar]

Burns your caustic wit is always a joy to read and I can relate to ROH's 2016 inciting ennui but some of these are just weird.

4. I want to say get a new booker but the Lethal/Cole/O'Reilly stuff is pretty great.

What the fuck man that debacle is tip-top of the shit list! Never before did ROH slap the World Title on someone solely so that they could lose it, they've been better bookers than that for 15 years.

[Big Red Machine]

Burns your caustic wit is always a joy to read and I can relate to ROH's 2016 inciting ennui but some of these are just weird.

4. I want to say get a new booker but the Lethal/Cole/O'Reilly stuff is pretty great.

What the fuck man that debacle is tip-top of the shit list! Never before did ROH slap the World Title on someone solely so that they could lose it, they've been better bookers than that for 15 years.

Huh. I actually never thought about this title reign like this. When you put it like that it does sound bad. I think that a better way to think about this is that Cole getting the belt is a necessary part of the story of Kyle's win.
That being said, I think ROH does need to set up some good challengers for Cole (preferably guys who somehow play into the Bullet Club angle) so that it doesn't feel like the only thing Cole did is drop the belt to Kyle.

[HonorLives]

I like you Burnside, but did you have to open a whole topic to explain this? And then 2 guys ask for a review of a few shows and nobody gives them an answer because who gives a damn. Hum, okay.

I "love" the fact a large percentage of this board's posts are about stuff I consider meaningless (CONTRACTS ARE EXPIRING OH MY, New Japan hurts ROH, the trios titles are bad no matter what they do with them) and then when it comes to actually discuss the product... only a few people have something to say.

I think this board should be about ROH, especially what happens in the ring and not outside, and it's kinda sad when Burnside's retirement topic (again, I don't dislike you) and useless subjects get more buzz than what actually matters.

[Wilson]

I like you Burnside, but did you have to open a whole topic to explain this? And then 2 guys ask for a review of a few shows and nobody gives them an answer because who gives a damn. Hum, okay.

I "love" the fact a large percentage of this board's posts are about stuff I consider meaningless (CONTRACTS ARE EXPIRING OH MY, New Japan hurts ROH, the trios titles are bad no matter what they do with them) and then when it comes to actually discuss the product... only a few people have something to say.

I think this board should be about ROH, especially what happens in the ring and not outside, and it's kinda sad when Burnside's retirement topic (again, I don't dislike you) and useless subjects get more buzz than what actually matters.

Are you referring to the query of which Road to Best in the World shows are worthwhile? The reason for the scarce responses were that scarcely anyone had ordered the shows.

Burnside is/was a valuable member of the community and I’m sure most people would rather have an explanation rather than not. Despite your protesting of the general idiom of the board, you did not successfully argue anything stated in the original post, which, more than most posts lately, discussed ROH in a broad sense. In contrast, your post was an ad hominem accusation of the tone found in various threads without adding more to the discussion. In other words, you were complaining.

If people are unsatisfied with the product, it should be reflected in the product’s message board and vice versa. I’m not sure if you were visiting here last year, but the latter was very evident during the build to Best in the World 2015, limning the general positivity of the product both in per commenter’s volubility and in the variety of commenters. Sure, some of the negativity is supernumerary, however I think the dissatisfaction with ROH is mostly warranted.

Also, I find your decision to individuate Burnside and criticize the succeeding responses (mostly of farewells and best wishes) after said poster has confirmed to leave as pretty curious--in other words very, very dubious.

[HonorLives]

Burnside is/was a valuable member of the community and I’m sure most people would rather have an explanation rather than not.

Despite your protesting of the general idiom of the board, you did not successfully argue anything stated in the original post, which, more than most posts lately, discussed ROH in a broad sense. In contrast, your post was an ad hominem accusation of the tone found in various threads without adding more to the discussion. In other words, you were complaining.

He is and I like him, I wrote it twice already. I'm just amazed that this topic gets people to talk more than an actual event or a storyline. Can I express it?

So the guy explains why he's leaving and I should tell him I don't agree with him? He won't even read it because, you know, he just left.

[Big Red Machine]

Burnside is/was a valuable member of the community and I’m sure most people would rather have an explanation rather than not.

Despite your protesting of the general idiom of the board, you did not successfully argue anything stated in the original post, which, more than most posts lately, discussed ROH in a broad sense. In contrast, your post was an ad hominem accusation of the tone found in various threads without adding more to the discussion. In other words, you were complaining.

He is and I like him, I wrote it twice already. I'm just amazed that this topic gets people to talk more than an actual event or a storyline. Can I express it?

So the guy explains why he's leaving and I should tell him I don't agree with him? He won't even read it because, you know, he just left.

1. The reason no one answered the request for show Road to BITW show reviews is that myself and a few others had already done so in a recent topic.
2. If you think this thread is getting more discussion than any of ROH's storylines, I don't think you've been reading the board at all lately. There has been much lively discussion over the Lethal/Cole/Kyle direction, the Bullet Club angle, the upcoming Ladder War, the Trios Titles, etc. If you would like more storyline-based discussion, the you've tuned in at the wrong time of the month because the episodes of TV to set up the next bunch of storylines haven't started airing yet, and we're just coming off of a PPV.
3. Similarly, there haven't been many discussions of actual shows because there haven't been many lately. DBD was a few weeks ago, the TV tapings after it haven't started to air yet, and the FOH VOD only went up within the last 48 hours, so most people haven't had time to watch it yet. Before that, the last show was over a month ago.
4. If you don't consider discussions about who might be coming/going, or how ROH books/portrays itself in relation to its international partners, or how ROH best utilizes both its own talent and the foreign talent they bring in to be "actually discussing the product" then I think your definition of "discussion of the product" is WAY too narrow.

[The Dragon Saga]

B
What the fuck man that debacle is tip-top of the shit list! Never before did ROH slap the World Title on someone solely so that they could lose it, they've been better bookers than that for 15 years.

So we're ignoring Eddie's title reign just so they could play up Davey being jealous and taking it from his best friend because it was his time? Okay.

[Big Red Machine]

B
What the fuck man that debacle is tip-top of the shit list! Never before did ROH slap the World Title on someone solely so that they could lose it, they've been better bookers than that for 15 years.

So we're ignoring Eddie's title reign just so they could play up Davey being jealous and taking it from his best friend because it was his time? Okay.

That's what Eddie's reign was in hindsight. At the time, though, people were questioning whether ROH would really give Eddie such a short reign, and a lot of people felt that the outcome of the BITW match was anything but certain, with possible scenarios including either guy winning clean, either guy turning heel to win, or ether guy losing clean and then turning heel right afterwards.

[Wilson]

He is and I like him, I wrote it twice already. I'm just amazed that this topic gets people to talk more than an actual event or a storyline. Can I express it?

So the guy explains why he's leaving and I should tell him I don't agree with him? He won't even read it because, you know, he just left.

You say that you won’t write in direct response to the original poster, yet there were various you’s written in your above post, which is very direct discourse.

Above all else, I think you should be able to express your thoughts, as long as these expressions are without abuse, calling out, contriving members into contingents, or hindering the thread or forum. On this occasion, I think you are culpable of a few of these matters.

My last thoughts on this are that Burnside wrote this rather humbly and without excessive corrosiveness (perhaps this is what you’ve been finding on the board lately?). I’m glad this topic was made. I think it benefits the forum.