The General ROH Complaints Thread

This is the place to discuss all the latest ROH news, announcements and events!
Big Red Machine
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

Burnside wrote:I liked the ether finish. There, I said it.

I do think Cornette was better with logic and continuity than Delirious, but holy shit did he book some stuff nobody wanted to see.

Who was the main booker for the first half of 2011? Lagana? That's the last time I thought it was really good.
The ether finish would have worked better if it was a regular match and it was a dastardly heel thing to do. The problem was that they did it in a Fight Without Honor where it isn't illegal, and perhaps more importantly, is not a finish that meets the expectations for the level of violence expected from ROH's ultimate feud blow-off.
Vanilla Gorilla
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Vanilla Gorilla »

dhads7161 wrote:I've got some complaints about TV and I think they're legitimate. Why show nothing but Honor Rising content heading into Global Wars? Should have had two Road Rage episodes from SCOH weekend. There were two big feuds paid off, and the return of Cabana that led to the Global Wars main event, and the four way tag also had Global Wars implications. Then done the Honor Rising content instead of the shit they've been airing the last few weeks.
yeah, wtf is that? awful before and after the PPV - give new content on your TVs. Not old stuff from February before and best of Jay Lethals and Bullet Clubs after
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STITCHES
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by STITCHES »

That's been my complaint about ROH for a while now. The TV episodes are often extremely hit or miss, meanwhile the PPV cards tend to be matches I've seen before (i.e. the opponents are recycled, not the content itself). I know, I know. Storylines. Whatever. After a while, I'd like to see something fresh from a leading edge indy company that historically has earned a reputation for BEING fresh.

That said, Bullet Club might save ROH. If you're going to be like everyone else by writing a program riddled with fuck finishes and presenting a naive roster that can't overcome a stable of 4 heels (who we love to hate or hate to love anyway), at least bring in the big guns. Smart move.
Fawrules
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Fawrules »

Burnside wrote:I liked the ether finish. There, I said it.

I do think Cornette was better with logic and continuity than Delirious, but holy shit did he book some stuff nobody wanted to see.

Who was the main booker for the first half of 2011? Lagana? That's the last time I thought it was really good.
Though a step down from that time frame, I thought 2014 as a whole was pretty darn good for the most part. The current trappings of the booking didn't get to be too much of a common occurrence until early 2015.
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Brada
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Brada »

Burnside wrote:
Brada wrote:Is acknowledging the fact that everyone has different opinions, and just being OK with that not an option?

If someone likes everything ROH is doing, cool!

If someone has a problem with booking, talent, whatever....is just not watching an option for you? Or is it much more meaningful to come on a message board and direct your issues there?

This is all bringing a new meaning to Wrestling is rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllll
So, if I'm following you...

1. Everyone has different opinions, and people should be okay with that.

2. It's fine if you like everything about ROH.

3. If you don't, you should stop watching Ring of Honor and shouldn't post here (?)

Not sure #3 quite works with #1.

Good point Burnside. 3 and 1 don't go together, you are right. I guess, in a nutshell, I just don't get why someone would continue to watch if they aren't enjoying the product with so many other viable options available.

Just my two cents.
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Burnside
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Burnside »

I'm giving them until Labor Day to turn it around. If they don't, then, yeah, NXT for me.
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STITCHES
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by STITCHES »

That's really not much time, man.
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Burnside
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Burnside »

STITCHES wrote:That's really not much time, man.
It's been quite bad since June 2015, so I've already given them almost a full year.

I actually decided around New Year's that I'd tap out if they hadn't gotten their act together by Best in the World, but I will stick around through the end of August because I'm scoring the fantasy league.

There is literally nothing they're doing right now that I find exciting or interesting.
187_Joeism
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by 187_Joeism »

Just for the curiosity, what would need to happen for you to keep watching? In that short period of time i don´t see any major changes happening.

If you stop watching and with you caring that much for storylines i think Lucha Underground or PROGRESS are better choices than NXT, NXT specials are awesome but the TV is just decent. Bunch of squashes & some good matches from time to time.
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jordidebaas
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by jordidebaas »

If you care about logic, LU is probably the worst thing you can watch
I was in the front line when we battled page 15
187_Joeism
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by 187_Joeism »

If you care about logic just stop watching wrestling and watch sports :lol:
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Burnside
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Burnside »

187_Joeism wrote:Just for the curiosity, what would need to happen for you to keep watching? In that short period of time i don´t see any major changes happening.

If you stop watching and with you caring that much for storylines i think Lucha Underground or PROGRESS are better choices than NXT, NXT specials are awesome but the TV is just decent. Bunch of squashes & some good matches from time to time.
For me wrestling is largely about anticipation. Building to big matches and making me excited to see them - give me something to look forward to. I haven't seen a good build in Ring of Honor since Briscoe vs Lethal last year, and I can't think of a single match Ring of Honor could present right now that I'd be excited to see.

Here's what I think they could do right now to keep me watching:

- Do Lethal vs Cole and give it a great build. Lethal, Cole, and Jay Briscoe are the only singles stars they have right now, and Briscoe has worked with the other two too much. Young Bucks are also stars, but they have no worthy opponents.

- "What have we got for Jay Briscoe" should be the first or second question asked at every single booking meeting. He is the closest thing they have to Steve Austin and needs to be used much, much better. Take all the time wasted coming up with stupid bullshit for Veda, Nana, Moose, Cheeseburger, Corino, etc to do and devote all that time to making sure Jay Briscoe is being booked correctly. I think the best option for Jay right now is a singles feud with either Fish or O'Reilly.

- Loosen up the reigns on the promo style. The promos are, for the most part, way too safe, bland, and generic. Many of these guys are more interesting and cut better promos in other promotions or when left to their own devices shooting promos on their own that only appear online, not on TV. The way they are produced on TV is making the characters way less interesting than they should be. I don't know who is producing the promos at the TV tapings, but it's either Delirious or Kelly. That person needs to be removed from doing that job.

- Get Corino out of the booth. For me, I don't think he's ever going to work. He's just so wrong about everything. He regularly kills heat by not being serious about anything except his own maudlin angles, and his comedy is 90% miss for me. The "SUPERKICK" screaming is just flat-out physically unpleasant.

- Kevin Kelly is perfectly acceptable when he's in there with Nigel carrying him. I'm not asking him to be completely different, just maybe 20% less 90s WWF announcing style (which I recognize is all he knows). It's Ring of Honor, you're allowed to call a few moves and holds.

- Fix the finishes. PPV main events must all have clean finishes for the next year. Also, even the matches that do have clean finishes tend to end 3-5 moves after they should. Sometimes it's okay to end the match the first time you hit a finisher. You don't have to kick out until the finish becomes anti-climactic.

- Tell good stories. "We're letting the fans decide" is the weak excuse offered when people have no idea how to tell a compelling story to an audience. Game of Thrones doesn't let the fans decide. Walking Dead doesn't let the fans decide. Paul Heyman didn't let the fans decide. Gabe Sapolsky didn't let the fans decide. Breaking Bad didn't let the fans decide. Joss Whedon doesn't let the fans decide. The fans are fans, not bookers. Bookers should do their job and tell me a compelling story. The idea that that is impossible because of "how the fans are now" is total bullshit. I think NXT gets this right, or at least better. ROH has really lost control of this in a very similar way to how WWE has. Booking-wise, the only thing ROH is really doing better than WWE is that at least in ROH the wrestlers aren't portrayed as subservient to Joe Koff's children.

Lucha Underground I've tried but it doesn't really work for me. I only get the Spanish language version. I do speak some Spanish, but of the commentators I can generally only understand Vampiro; Savinovich screams too quickly for me. But I don't think it's really a language issue as much as not really liking the style. I do love Dario Cueto though.
187_Joeism
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by 187_Joeism »

I watched the Spanish version and it was better than the english but not for much, i don´t like Savinovich either so is nothing relate to the language.

Of your list i don´t have a problem with most of the things, the most i disagree is with Corino i love him & Kelly a lot, only the finishes i agree they need to fix, the only thing there that i can see happening is Cole vs Lethal and i hope they build Cole first before doing that so i will miss arguing with you.
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Big Red Machine
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

Fawrules wrote:
Burnside wrote:I liked the ether finish. There, I said it.

I do think Cornette was better with logic and continuity than Delirious, but holy shit did he book some stuff nobody wanted to see.

Who was the main booker for the first half of 2011? Lagana? That's the last time I thought it was really good.
Though a step down from that time frame, I thought 2014 as a whole was pretty darn good for the most part. The current trappings of the booking didn't get to be too much of a common occurrence until early 2015.
I actually thought there was a good solid year and a half or so from about late 2013 to mid 2015 where the show was pretty fantastic. It was very rare that they had an episode that wasn't at the very least "very good" with most of them being pretty great.
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Thelone
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Thelone »

Brada wrote:Good point Burnside. 3 and 1 don't go together, you are right. I guess, in a nutshell, I just don't get why someone would continue to watch if they aren't enjoying the product with so many other viable options available.

Just my two cents.
I haven't watched a full ROH show since ASE last year and stopped watching the TV show regularly in June I believe. I still watch the occasional buzz-worthy match (getting pretty rare though), "hot" angle or whatever trainwreck is up this week, but I don't bother with much else these days.

To be fair though, I'm pretty much on a break right now from pro graps. NXT took a nosedive in the last year or so and the uninspired build towards Takeover Dallas was the last straw, New Japan isn't for me and I gave up on my World sub a few months ago, and I still have a bunch of Shimmer DVDs lying around that I can't bother to watch or review because the last few shows I saw sucked hard.
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187_Joeism
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by 187_Joeism »

You could try AAW, EVOLVE, AIW or some UK companies or wXw TheLone, they are in the great moment right now, you also have Stardom World on youtube now for example (I can´t buy it here on Spain but i think is available on Belgium). I really don´t know what you enjoy in wrestling because i don´t have any material that you enjoyed to look for something similar but i´m sure you could find some company that you enjoy.
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STITCHES
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by STITCHES »

Burnside wrote:For me wrestling is largely about anticipation. Building to big matches and making me excited to see them - give me something to look forward to. I haven't seen a good build in Ring of Honor since Briscoe vs Lethal last year, and I can't think of a single match Ring of Honor could present right now that I'd be excited to see.

Here's what I think they could do right now to keep me watching:

- Do Lethal vs Cole and give it a great build. Lethal, Cole, and Jay Briscoe are the only singles stars they have right now, and Briscoe has worked with the other two too much. Young Bucks are also stars, but they have no worthy opponents.

- "What have we got for Jay Briscoe" should be the first or second question asked at every single booking meeting. He is the closest thing they have to Steve Austin and needs to be used much, much better. Take all the time wasted coming up with stupid bullshit for Veda, Nana, Moose, Cheeseburger, Corino, etc to do and devote all that time to making sure Jay Briscoe is being booked correctly. I think the best option for Jay right now is a singles feud with either Fish or O'Reilly.

- Loosen up the reigns on the promo style. The promos are, for the most part, way too safe, bland, and generic. Many of these guys are more interesting and cut better promos in other promotions or when left to their own devices shooting promos on their own that only appear online, not on TV. The way they are produced on TV is making the characters way less interesting than they should be. I don't know who is producing the promos at the TV tapings, but it's either Delirious or Kelly. That person needs to be removed from doing that job.

- Get Corino out of the booth. For me, I don't think he's ever going to work. He's just so wrong about everything. He regularly kills heat by not being serious about anything except his own maudlin angles, and his comedy is 90% miss for me. The "SUPERKICK" screaming is just flat-out physically unpleasant.

- Kevin Kelly is perfectly acceptable when he's in there with Nigel carrying him. I'm not asking him to be completely different, just maybe 20% less 90s WWF announcing style (which I recognize is all he knows). It's Ring of Honor, you're allowed to call a few moves and holds.

- Fix the finishes. PPV main events must all have clean finishes for the next year. Also, even the matches that do have clean finishes tend to end 3-5 moves after they should. Sometimes it's okay to end the match the first time you hit a finisher. You don't have to kick out until the finish becomes anti-climactic.

- Tell good stories. "We're letting the fans decide" is the weak excuse offered when people have no idea how to tell a compelling story to an audience. Game of Thrones doesn't let the fans decide. Walking Dead doesn't let the fans decide. Paul Heyman didn't let the fans decide. Gabe Sapolsky didn't let the fans decide. Breaking Bad didn't let the fans decide. Joss Whedon doesn't let the fans decide. The fans are fans, not bookers. Bookers should do their job and tell me a compelling story. The idea that that is impossible because of "how the fans are now" is total bullshit. I think NXT gets this right, or at least better. ROH has really lost control of this in a very similar way to how WWE has. Booking-wise, the only thing ROH is really doing better than WWE is that at least in ROH the wrestlers aren't portrayed as subservient to Joe Koff's children.
I agree with this. 100%. ROH needs to leave their fans wanting more, not wishing something else happened instead.
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

Burnside as usual makes excellent points. Wrestling itself is not rocket science here. It's simple. This guy or guys fucking hate this guy or guys and here's a story we're going to tell you. Like Burnside said, it's the anticipation that makes or breaks a good booker. Perfect example of this is when Gibson won the title from Punk. That was brilliantly booked. Punk was leaving and soon, but was he going to take the title with him? The 4 way for the title would feature a recently returning Christopher Daniels, mainstay Samoa Joe, Gibson, and Punk. After Punk knocks Gibson out early with an apparent match ending head wound, then the shocking exits of Joe and Daniels, we were left to wonder would Gibson return? Then Gibson limped down the aisle to his music and the match resumed. Crowd is going absolutely apeshit and pops even harder when Gibson wins. The whole thing was great booking and excellent use of anticipation.
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STITCHES
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by STITCHES »

Or even just the raw spontaneity of things. Remember that 8-man tag match with both Briscoes on opposite sides? They faced off, turned around, beat the fuck out of everyone else and left. That's hilarious! Or the CZW vs ROH feud. That kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore and I wish it did.
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JTGrasby
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Re: The General ROH Complaints Thread

Post by JTGrasby »

The ROH product just feels so... cold right now. There's nothing that grabs my attention. That's bad, especially when they're heading into one of their biggest shows of the year.
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