ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

This is the place to discuss all the latest ROH news, announcements and events!
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Wilson » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:00 am

supersonic wrote:Observer:
Dalton Castle’s contract is up this month. WWE has shown great interest in him so it will take a major offer to keep him. Castle is a tremendous live show performer and would have superstar potential in WWE.
Dalton Castle is the big one to retain or release, at this point. ROH doesn’t really have another fresh singles wrestler that can be immediately billed as a top star other than him. If he leaves, the company is just stuck with cross-talent, veterans, projects that are years away from being made, and Matt Taven.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by monster mafia » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:24 am

give dalton castle a 2 year contract or im gonna burn lizards man house in the near future!

maybe im #broken too. :lol:

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by SweetDaddy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:28 am

Sinking ship.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:38 am

Dalton Castle to WWE would be awful.

Not just because it would be bad for ROH, which it obviously would be, but also because Castle is one od those guys I feel like would be wasted (moreso than normal) in WWE. His technical style, his flamboyant character(s), his connection to the fans, etc are just not things I see translating easily or at all in a WWE environment.

But again, I really don't see why anyone thinks this is surprising or a sign of a sinking ship that WWE essentially has its choice of ROH talent (except the Bucks and Lethal so far).

At any point in ROH's history, whether they were in a hot or cold period, whether the financials looked bad or good, 99.99% of wrestlers would go to WWE given the chance. The fact that they are able to retain ANYBODY WWE has on their radar is a miracle.

Castle leaving would be a massive creative/booking/roster depth problem but it doesn't mean ROH is a sinking ship. It means what we all already knew: WWE is still orders of magnitude bigger.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by King of Indy Style » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:15 am

I'd hope Dalton understands that the WWE would completely strip him of what made him so beloved in ROH, along with his moveset, and he'd be a shell of what he was in ROH.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by SweetDaddy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:29 am

He may know WWE will change things up but he's also in this business to make money and WWE's where the money's at.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Wilson » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:38 am

famicommander wrote:Dalton Castle to WWE would be awful.

Not just because it would be bad for ROH, which it obviously would be, but also because Castle is one od those guys I feel like would be wasted (moreso than normal) in WWE. His technical style, his flamboyant character(s), his connection to the fans, etc are just not things I see translating easily or at all in a WWE environment.
Dalton has always come off to me as an NXT showcase in an ROH ring. That was his appeal, and the crowds evidently wanted that energy in ROH. I agree that his charm might not work on Monday Night Raw, but it seems so wrong to imply that there is no current place for him in the WWE.
famicommander wrote:At any point in ROH's history, whether they were in a hot or cold period, whether the financials looked bad or good, 99.99% of wrestlers would go to WWE given the chance. The fact that they are able to retain ANYBODY WWE has on their radar is a miracle.

Castle leaving would be a massive creative/booking/roster depth problem but it doesn't mean ROH is a sinking ship. It means what we all already knew: WWE is still orders of magnitude bigger.
While most independent talent see the WWE as the major milestone, there is still a great case for any number of talent to remain on the independent scene to fortify their social capital or to install a legacy they can later return to in case of a release. Of course, ROH can counteroffer by levering potential benefits like a stress-free work environment, comradery, opportunities for general growth, and learn among a wide group of learned and exciting talent. It worked well in the past to keep Cole, O’Reilly, and Strong as long as they have, but, again, today’s NXT has their number on all of these. Really, is there any reason someone would choose ROH over NXT if NJPW isn’t already seriously interested in that talent?

So far, the intelligent consensus has read less that ROH is plummeting as fast as a sinking ship but is descending slowly, a stone house sitting on clay. It looks like ROH will continue to incur major pains if they keep to their current methods.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:21 am

I think ROH being less able to retain talent at the moment vs the past has more to do with WWE being more serious about signing ROH guys than anything else.

Of course nobody was going to jump to NXT when they were offering the likes of the Briscoes a couple hundred bucks a week to go there, but now that NXT is a touring brand and many ROH guys have proven to be valuable within WWE, the interest is more genuine.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to shrug off this situation ROH finds itself in but I'm not. I'm just saying that WWE has always had the ability to get anybody theu wanted; they're just actually serious about it now.

It's not all gloom and doom. Supercard of Honor was the most attended show in ROH history; 15th Anniversary was the most watched PPV/iPPV/VOD im ROH history; War of the Worlds New York was the fastest sellout in ROH history. They just announced another UK tour and a TV deal in India.

I feel like people forget just how far ROH has come since 2013. 2016 was certainly a down year compared to 2015, but it was still way better than any year prior as far as attendance and overall visibility. You can't have the best year you've ever had every single year.

I still feel like most of the problems facing ROH are not financial in nature.

Yes, the talent drain is real and attendance is softer than two years ago, but you have to figure they're spending less on talent with so many names leaving and being replaced by the likes of Gresham and Gordon.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by AlexROH » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:05 pm

famicommander wrote:I think ROH being less able to retain talent at the moment vs the past has more to do with WWE being more serious about signing ROH guys than anything else.

Of course nobody was going to jump to NXT when they were offering the likes of the Briscoes a couple hundred bucks a week to go there, but now that NXT is a touring brand and many ROH guys have proven to be valuable within WWE, the interest is more genuine.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to shrug off this situation ROH finds itself in but I'm not. I'm just saying that WWE has always had the ability to get anybody theu wanted; they're just actually serious about it now.

It's not all gloom and doom. Supercard of Honor was the most attended show in ROH history; 15th Anniversary was the most watched PPV/iPPV/VOD im ROH history; War of the Worlds New York was the fastest sellout in ROH history. They just announced another UK tour and a TV deal in India.

I feel like people forget just how far ROH has come since 2013. 2016 was certainly a down year compared to 2015, but it was still way better than any year prior as far as attendance and overall visibility. You can't have the best year you've ever had every single year.

I still feel like most of the problems facing ROH are not financial in nature.

Yes, the talent drain is real and attendance is softer than two years ago, but you have to figure they're spending less on talent with so many names leaving and being replaced by the likes of Gresham and Gordon.
Financially ROH is great. They are doing good attendance numbers and they are selling DVD/VODs, but the product in getting worse. I know that it is impossible to grow if you use the old DVD show formula from years ago, but I don't want "another TNA". I mean, TNA was different back in the day. It had its problems and shitty bookings, but the product felt fresh. Then, they started growing and they thought that the only way to become a bigger promotion was a transformation into a WWE 2.0.

I'm not saying that ROH is going to hire Bischoff and Hogan lol, but the product has become meh. There are some strong shows and some very good matches, but, in general, ROH has become just another company in the market. Doing what everybody does, and each team, with a weaker roster. That's the problem with ROH. Yeah, maybe they are doing fine from a financial standpoint, but the product/booking has no direction and that, in the long term, is the worst thing that could happend to a proffesional wrestling promotion.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Wilson » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:41 pm

@famicommander

First off, let me say that I think you make valid points. I know the current evidence of stability is hard to prove against. And I am confident you are not merely defending the company for the sake of fan bias, however:
I know it sounds like I'm trying to shrug off this situation ROH finds itself in but I'm not. I'm just saying that WWE has always had the ability to get anybody theu wanted; they're just actually serious about it now.
My central disagreement with your posts is that this argument precludes any responsibility on ROH for losing talent. That wouldn’t explain Cedric Alexander, Michael Elgin, ACH, Lio Rush, or Keith Lee. ROH can be blamed for rendering talent through years of uncomplimentary booking. ROH can be blamed for their contract tampering cases which build roadblocks between companies that should have oblique yet mechanically sound passages. ROH can be blamed for their deeply weird fixity with Johnston.

Finances are probably well enough with Sinclair, at some point that is the minimum I expect with the company. Even though I find them attaining the well enough for some time, I still would say that the company is on shaky foundation. The company drew well at a Wrestlemania coattail with a ladder match starring the Hardyz and War of the Worlds is always built on the stilts of New Japan talent. The Hardys are gone. Events without New Japan are hurting their market. The Young Bucks and Cody are their only big stars (of course, Young Bucks being among the biggest stars at this level). New Japan is creating an American market. Non-PPV markets are shrinking. PPVs/VODs are quickly becoming undesirable formats. For such a corporately conservative company, these are glaring hazards. Discrete accomplishments don’t expunge or redeem the flaws.

My biggest concern is creative. Weak creative and the lack of building stars always deeply injures promotions. We’re seeing trouble in both departments. Given ROH’s revealing track record, I don’t expect either to improve. And that, to me, is trouble.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:18 pm

I am not saying ROH is without blame with respect to the talent drain, I just don't think it's the primary factor. The booking, creative, talent relations, etc are all contributing factors and areas where ROH can and should improve, no question. What I'm saying is that those issues in a vacuum probably wouldn't drive the exodus we've seen in recent years; especially if WWE wasn't calling.

And I've made many similar arguments about ROH needing to modernize and grow up a bit with regards to content distribution, pricing, and just generally fixing their website. They need a better video player, they need a streaming service, they need a monthly subscription, they need to keep their TV listings/roster/news sections updated, they need to do a better job on social media, they need to feature the weekly Youtube shows prominently on the website, etc.

As for current ROH stars, I think you're selling Lethal, the Briscoes, and Daniels short. I think they're all legitimate draws and if any/all left it would show in the attendance.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by LJimmy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:00 pm

So Dave has been saying that WWE are avoiding ROH names due to tampering threats, yet he is now claiming that WWE is very interested in signing Castle when his deal expires. Something is very fishy here. Me thinks ROH is planting B.S. stories in order to keep finding ways to further delay people who have left from going to WWE. This could be to claim that WWE is still tampering even if they're are and have no interest in Castle.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by SweetDaddy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:38 pm

I agree that ROH has kept their bell cows {Briscoes, Lethal, Bucks} and I know that wrestlers jumping from promotion to promotion has been part of the game since day 1.

My problem is with the piles of shit they're replacing these top hands that are leaving with.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by SweetDaddy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:54 pm

Let me ask you all this.

No matter when you first started watching ROH something caught your eye that made you continue watching.

If you had never seen a ROH show in your life and you watched the next TV show would you continue watching?

I doubt I would.

Its like the girlfriend you had that put it on you thick and good every day and bought you a ps4 and took you to Wrigley Field and 3 years later she had gained 60 lbs and bitched every breath.

You stay with her hoping the good times will come back but the reality is they rarely if ever do.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Wilson » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:04 pm

famicommander wrote:I am not saying ROH is without blame with respect to the talent drain, I just don't think it's the primary factor. The booking, creative, talent relations, etc are all contributing factors and areas where ROH can and should improve, no question. What I'm saying is that those issues in a vacuum probably wouldn't drive the exodus we've seen in recent years; especially if WWE wasn't calling.
Fair enough.
famicommander wrote:As for current ROH stars, I think you're selling Lethal, the Briscoes, and Daniels short. I think they're all legitimate draws and if any/all left it would show in the attendance.
Maybe. Draws aren't that easy to prove unless in obvious cases. The Briscoes, Lethal, and Daniels are essential to the fabric of all the ROH shows. It would hurt in many ways to remove them, but placing who they are today in another promotion probably won't generate that much fanfare. But, yes, ROH has done a great job of keeping them, and has done great to build them in past years, especially Lethal and Jay Briscoe.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:23 pm

SweetDaddy wrote:Let me ask you all this.

No matter when you first started watching ROH something caught your eye that made you continue watching.

If you had never seen a ROH show in your life and you watched the next TV show would you continue watching?
.
I would.

I enjoy pro wrestling and I think ROH's TV show has better wrestling than Raw, Smackdown, or Impact. I think NJPW is the best promotion in the world right now while Lucha Underground is the best wrestling TV show, but ROH is still enjoyable. It's only an hour, it's on free and cable TV here, they don't bog down half the show with recaps and replays, the commentary is at least generally tolerable, there aren't any celebrities or announcers getting matches on PPV cards, there are still quite a few guys I'm a fan of performing there, etc. I can criticize the creative as well as the technical aspects of Ring of Honor and still enjoy the show. To say they can and should be better than they are right now doesn't mean you have to condemn the product entirely.

In particular I have enjoyed pretty much every show so far in 2017, and I consider it a marked improvement over the latter parts of 2015 and almost all of 2016.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by rovert1 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:56 pm

The Castle/WWE story is false and a planted story. Not worth discussing.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by SweetDaddy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:24 pm

I know that WWE's the NFL of wrestling but I agree that NJPW is currently the best product.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:26 pm

rovert1 wrote:The Castle/WWE story is false and a planted story. Not worth discussing.
Planted by whom, and to what end?

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Wilson » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:40 pm

famicommander wrote:
rovert1 wrote:The Castle/WWE story is false and a planted story. Not worth discussing.
Planted by whom, and to what end?
Russia. Dezinformatsiya.

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