ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

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monster mafia
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by monster mafia » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:14 pm

Gedo.

ActionJeffson
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by ActionJeffson » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:34 pm

monster mafia wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:14 pm
Gedo.

famicommander
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:14 pm

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:17 pm
But would you rather have Gabe or Gedo?
Paul Heyman.

Failing that, Gedo.

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:58 pm

famicommander wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:46 am
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:18 am
AlexROH wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:18 am
Bye, bye Tempura Boyz:

Image
Is there any team that doesn't win those belts pretty much right away? Gedo has got to be the most overrated booker in the wrestling industry by miles.


Look at the other major bookers right now

ROH - Delirious
CMLL - Ultimo Guerrero and others
AAA - Vampiro and others
Impact - John Gaburick and others
WWE - Road Dogg, HHH, Vince McMahon, and others

I'd trade you all those dudes and a first round draft pick for Gedo.
I said Gedo was the most overrated, not that he was the worst. Aside from Hunter, none of those other guys are getting much praise for anything they do (and rightly so, in my opinion).

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:01 pm

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:17 pm
But would you rather have Gabe or Gedo?
Gabe. By miles. Gedo has an eye for talent, but other than that all he knows how to do is protect some guys and protect some moves. Gabe can do all of that while telling interesting stories.

YimYac
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by YimYac » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:37 pm

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:01 pm
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:17 pm
But would you rather have Gabe or Gedo?
Gabe. By miles. Gedo has an eye for talent, but other than that all he knows how to do is protect some guys and protect some moves. Gabe can do all of that while telling interesting stories.
Evolve is known for all those interesting stories they've told this year.

YimYac
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by YimYac » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:39 pm

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:18 am
AlexROH wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:18 am
Bye, bye Tempura Boyz:

Image
Is there any team that doesn't win those belts pretty much right away? Gedo has got to be the most overrated booker in the wrestling industry by miles.
They got a rockstar type reaction for the crowd. NJPW has desperately needed a top junior japanese tag team for years.

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:32 am

YimYac wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:37 pm
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:01 pm
Mr. Mojo Risin wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:17 pm
But would you rather have Gabe or Gedo?
Gabe. By miles. Gedo has an eye for talent, but other than that all he knows how to do is protect some guys and protect some moves. Gabe can do all of that while telling interesting stories.
Evolve is known for all those interesting stories they've told this year.
All of the stuff with Lee has been interesting to me, all of the stuff with Galloway was excellent, and I very much enjoyed both the Darby vs. Page feud and the Zack vs. Thatcher feud. Maybe "interesting" wasn't the right word so much as "nuanced."

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:33 am

YimYac wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:39 pm
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:18 am
AlexROH wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:18 am
Bye, bye Tempura Boyz:

Image
Is there any team that doesn't win those belts pretty much right away? Gedo has got to be the most overrated booker in the wrestling industry by miles.
They got a rockstar type reaction for the crowd. NJPW has desperately needed a top junior japanese tag team for years.
But Gedo had no way of knowing that would happen when he made the decision to put the belts on them. IMO it devalues the belts for everyone to win them right away.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:39 am

I agree that the tag booking should be better.

They should unify the heavyweight and jr heavyweight tag belts. Would make for some fresh matchups and open up some space on the cards for better feuds.

And I don't think they need three midcard titles. Unify the IC belt with the NEVER belt.

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Wilson
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Wilson » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:11 am

Big Red Machine wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:33 am
But Gedo had no way of knowing that would happen when he made the decision to put the belts on them. IMO it devalues the belts for everyone to win them right away.
Gedo excels in scouting and reutilizing talent after excursions. Hotshotting the belts on Hiromu or Okada didn't detriment their respective belts. Sho and Yoh came off really great--and I love their flashy Ghostbusters look--but you're right about the division in general. The only team who has been in a junior tag team title match that hasn't won the belt this year were Jado and Gedo. Purposefully established undercard belts are shameful things.

Though I really disagree with your position on Gedo. The Tanahashi/Okada program itself can be made to be a case for a HOF discussion. Also, if I recall correctly, he has a huge part in agenting the top matches. Okada's success looks to me to be completely coauthored. If there is a factual relation between managing and having a mind for the business, Gedo belongs in the same discussion as Cornette or Heyman.

Some pretty good stories that happened in NJPW this year:
- Okada's yearlong undefeated streak was given to an up-and-coming EVIL
- Hiromu's two minute sprint through the face of the junior division
- Creating a program between Omega/Ishii which all had differing stakes, itslef a sub-plot to Omega/Okada
- Booking an evidently fantastic face/heel dynamic in Okada/Cody
- Rebuilding Bad Luck Fale in short order to put over Shibata as a major number one contendor
Big Red Machine wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:32 am
All of the stuff with Lee has been interesting to me, all of the stuff with Galloway was excellent, and I very much enjoyed both the Darby vs. Page feud and the Zack vs. Thatcher feud. Maybe "interesting" wasn't the right word so much as "nuanced."
More to that, I am appreciating that Doom Patrol has been built to be their prominent tag team in some time. ACH's story was also getting good before all that Troll Boyz folderol.

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Wilson
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Wilson » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:18 am

famicommander wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:39 am
And I don't think they need three midcard titles. Unify the IC belt with the NEVER belt.
I guess there is still movement to be made with the US belt before I can really make an opinion here, but NJPW doesn't seem like they can keep with with four singles titles if they're all chiefly under one promotion. Haven't been into the NEVER belt at all this year. It's been one of the worst singles belts in a major promotion, honestly. Unless it can be retooled for younger talent or for juniors-going-on-heavyweight that belt should be thrown in the dumpster.

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:55 pm

famicommander wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:39 am
I agree that the tag booking should be better.

They should unify the heavyweight and jr heavyweight tag belts. Would make for some fresh matchups and open up some space on the cards for better feuds.

And I don't think they need three midcard titles. Unify the IC belt with the NEVER belt.
I think the presence of the NEVER belt wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have so many. With both the IWGP Heavyweight and Intercontinental Titles being treated like world titles, it might help to have a mid-card singles belt as well. The problem is that with the US Title and NEVER six-man titles and two sets of tag titles running around, every match pretty much becomes a title match. I'd cut the six-man belts and US belt and unify the tag belts. Another possibility that might help but they'll NEVER do is shrink the stables. They could have more teams running around if CHAOS or Bullet Club were allowed to have more than one team at a time.

famicommander
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:08 pm

I'd rather see the Six Man titles stay.

And really, I don't like weight classes at all in wrestling. Why not just let Kushida wrestle Okada? Is Kushida beating Okada less believable than Omega beating, say, Bad Luck Fale or Davey Boy Smith Jr (just from a physical point of view, not as far as making sense in-storyline)?

I'd just have
IWGP (World) Championship (unify the Heavyweight and Jr Heavyweight belts)
IWGP Intercontinental Championship (unify the IC and NEVER Openweight belts)
IWGP United States Championship
IWGP (World) Tag Team Championship (unify the Heavyweight and Jr Heavyweight tag belts)
NEVER Six Man Tag Team Championship

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:16 pm

Wilson wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:11 am
Big Red Machine wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:33 am
But Gedo had no way of knowing that would happen when he made the decision to put the belts on them. IMO it devalues the belts for everyone to win them right away.
Gedo excels in scouting and reutilizing talent after excursions. Hotshotting the belts on Hiromu or Okada didn't detriment their respective belts. Sho and Yoh came off really great--and I love their flashy Ghostbusters look--but you're right about the division in general. The only team who has been in a junior tag team title match that hasn't won the belt this year were Jado and Gedo. Purposefully established undercard belts are shameful things.

Though I really disagree with your position on Gedo. The Tanahashi/Okada program itself can be made to be a case for a HOF discussion. Also, if I recall correctly, he has a huge part in agenting the top matches. Okada's success looks to me to be completely coauthored. If there is a factual relation between managing and having a mind for the business, Gedo belongs in the same discussion as Cornette or Heyman.

Some pretty good stories that happened in NJPW this year:
- Okada's yearlong undefeated streak was given to an up-and-coming EVIL
- Hiromu's two minute sprint through the face of the junior division
- Creating a program between Omega/Ishii which all had differing stakes, itslef a sub-plot to Omega/Okada
- Booking an evidently fantastic face/heel dynamic in Okada/Cody
- Rebuilding Bad Luck Fale in short order to put over Shibata as a major number one contendor
I didn't even realize Okada hadn't been pinned in a year.
The stuff you mentioned is all very good, though I don't think I would call any of it particularly great, other than the Omega/Ishii subplot to Omega vs. Okada, and even that I had a bit of an issue with.
Gedo does certain basic but important things very well, including protecting his stars (though I'd argue that he is way overprotective of Tanahashi at this point), keeping his finger on the pulse of the fanbase, and utilizing his talent in roles on the card that fit them well. But there are other basic but important things that I think Gedo does extremely poorly.

My biggest gripe with Gedo's booking is that unless there is a title changing hands, things don't have consequences.
In last year's G1 Tama Tonga betrayed Bad Luck Fale, going back on their plan that would have almost certainly guaranteed Fale a spot in the G1 finals. The year before that AJ Styles did something similar to Fale, and even poked him in the eye and cheated top beat him. In both instances they were right back to being friends the next day. This year we saw Omega and Tama Tonga get into a screaming match about Omega's perceived selfishness at the expense of the group. Nothing has come of that, either.
Yano kicked Okada in the balls and tried to cheat him out of a match in this year's G1 (and I'm sure he's done the same other CHAOS members in the past). How has he not been kicked out of the group yet? All of the Jr. Heavyweights in Suzuki-Gun just randomly started to attack each other with weapons and kick each other in the nuts on the final day of this year's BOSJ B Block. And the next day they're all back together like nothing ever happened.
Fale destroys Darryl and nothing comes of it. How do you not build to a match between those two off of that? If the issue is that they're in different weight classes, then why not actually use the "Openweight" part of the NEVER Openweight Title and have that be your loophole to get the match made, with Hiromu getting revenge on Fale by taking the title from him?

Or you have a situation where a guy pins a champion and doesn't get a title match. Suzuki did jobs for EVIL, Omega, Yano, and Elgin in the G1, but only Elgin has gotten a title shot yet, and only Yano has had one announced. Meanwhile, one of New Japan's biggest shows of the year just went by with no one getting a title shot. Same story with Tanahashi and Ibushi. Why did that match not happen at KOPW instead of that pointless tag match? Okada went all three shows of the Destruction Tour without defending his belt. How the hell has no rematch for Omega been announced yet even though he pinned Okada in the G1 and his last title shot against Okada went to a time limit draw? If you're not going to book a follow-up match, don't have the champion do a job!
And speaking of guys who have pinned Okada, Ishii pinned Okada in last year's G1 and still hasn't gotten a title shot yet. the only explanation I have heard for this is that they're in the same stable and therefore won't fight each other, but that's idiotic. Why can't they? They're both babyfaces, so why can't they have a nice clean title match against each other?
That's a big part of the reason that I'm skeptical that this EVIL push will go anywhere. Naito is already the top dog in LIJ, so there just isn't a spot at the top of the card for EVIL. And Bullet Club has Omega, CHAOS has Okada, Taguchi Japan has Tanahashi, and Suzuki-Gun has Suzuki, so unless he's going to form his own stable, I honestly don't see anywhere for him to go up to.

With the exception of Okada and Tanahashi (which was a very long-term thing with relatively few components), every time Gedo has tried to tell a story, I have found it extremely wanting. The whole redemption of KUSHIDA earlier this year I thought was extremely rushed-through, and the thing he did with Tenzan, Liger, and Nagata, in their final G1s was terrible. By jobbing them out the way he did, he told us that not only were our heroes too old to still go anymore, but they did so poorly this year that they probably should have given up after last year. That's not a fun or entertaining story, and especially not after the things they did with Kojima giving Tenzan his spot so Tenzan could have one last shot in the G1.

I've also found the general booking of the G1 and BOSJ to be pretty bad. The right guys finished in the top two of the blocks and the right guys won the G1, but the booking of the blocks themselves have been lackluster at best. His general idea is always to try to keep pretty much everyone close so that we don't know who will win until the end, but that strategy is defeated by the fact that he always books it so that it almost always comes down to the two guys in the main event on the final day of block play pretty much gives it away once the cards are announced, and he books the last few days like an idiot by having pretty much everyone else get mathematically eliminated on the second to last day instead of the last day that rather than having all of the matches (or at least four out of five) on the final day of block play mean something, it's only the main event and maybe one other match where the outcome has any affect whatsoever.

I'm also not thrilled with this while thing going on where top singles titles are rarely defended (there is no reason for Okada to only defend his belt once in six months), and as noted above, the booking of all three tag divisions is pathetically sloppy.
Wilson wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:11 am
Big Red Machine wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:32 am
All of the stuff with Lee has been interesting to me, all of the stuff with Galloway was excellent, and I very much enjoyed both the Darby vs. Page feud and the Zack vs. Thatcher feud. Maybe "interesting" wasn't the right word so much as "nuanced."
More to that, I am appreciating that Doom Patrol has been built to be their prominent tag team in some time. ACH's story was also getting good before all that Troll Boyz folderol.
My hope is that there is more to tell with that. I think it would have been great to have Page do something to get himself fired rather than just have him disappear, which could put some fear of G-d back into ACH and making start behaving like the self-important dick he was back in May before all of this Troll Boyz stuff started.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:09 pm

Man, I prefer Gedo but BRM really makes a compelling case with his analysis of the faults in Gedo's booking, all of which​ make sense to me.

Nobody is doing any shit right now totally buzzworthy like Golden Age ROH, ECW, or the early days of the nWo.

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:11 pm

It might sound like an odd thing to say and I know it will never happen, but I think the best thing that could possibly happen for New Japan would be for Jim Cornette to come in as Gedo's assistant booker.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:29 pm

Jim Cornette is gigantic seven year old that lives in 1974. He's still great on the mic and he knows a lot of history but his views on modern wrestling are frankly embarrassing. Not to mention he has a long history of assault charges. He doesn't belong in civilized society, let alone a major wrestling promotion in 2017. He's still so butthurt about that scumbag Russo taking his job that he called Kenny Bolin bragging about hiring someone to kill Russo. Nobody knows if Cornette actually hired the guy, but Bolin took it seriously enough that Russo now has a restraining order and Cornette ended a 40+ year friendship with Bolin.

The industry needs to leave people like Cornette and Russo in the past.

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:06 pm

famicommander wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:29 pm
Jim Cornette is gigantic seven year old that lives in 1974. He's still great on the mic and he knows a lot of history but his views on modern wrestling are frankly embarrassing. Not to mention he has a long history of assault charges. He doesn't belong in civilized society, let alone a major wrestling promotion in 2017. He's still so butthurt about that scumbag Russo taking his job that he called Kenny Bolin bragging about hiring someone to kill Russo. Nobody knows if Cornette actually hired the guy, but Bolin took it seriously enough that Russo now has a restraining order and Cornette ended a 40+ year friendship with Bolin.

The industry needs to leave people like Cornette and Russo in the past.
But all of that aside, I think he would bring ideas to progress stories a little more quickly, and/or ideas for undercard stories, and also he would cut down on the bullsh*t and terrible refereeing in all of the matches.

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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by BurningHammer » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:03 pm

The last thing New Japan really needs is a new booker, they are having huge success under Jado and Gedo, stories are progressing new stars are now being made and accepted by fans generally. Gedo keeps things simple enough that every crowd from each country can buy into and understand, that right now is perfect for them. Especially with having such a match based style it compliments the booking, if the matches didn't deliver then there would be more of an issue.

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