ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

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Brada
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Brada »

Joe Koff needs to go if anyone wants change. I just don't understand his strong allegiance to Hunter.
FanSinceHDNet
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by FanSinceHDNet »

Brada wrote:Joe Koff needs to go if anyone wants change. I just don't understand his strong allegiance to Hunter.
More markets, bigger crowds, record revenue, largest viewing audience ever, etc. This, from what just about everyone has said, is a period of record growth for ROH since he took over full time from Cornette which is over four years ago now. That's four straight years presumably of being in the black which, compared to what Cary Silkin said on Cabana's podcast, is four more years than ROH had before. Final Battle just drew an unexpectedly large number, too, did it not?

Until attendance and interest drops and the affiliates ratings drop and the PPV buys drop, I don't know that there's a real great business case for anyone to go.
Memphis Mark
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Memphis Mark »

FanSinceHDNet wrote:
Brada wrote:Joe Koff needs to go if anyone wants change. I just don't understand his strong allegiance to Hunter.
More markets, bigger crowds, record revenue, largest viewing audience ever, etc. This, from what just about everyone has said, is a period of record growth for ROH since he took over full time from Cornette which is over four years ago now. That's four straight years presumably of being in the black which, compared to what Cary Silkin said on Cabana's podcast, is four more years than ROH had before. Final Battle just drew an unexpectedly large number, too, did it not?

Until attendance and interest drops and the affiliates ratings drop and the PPV buys drop, I don't know that there's a real great business case for anyone to go.

Great post. Business is still good , so Delirious is not going anywhere. I would imagine that Delirious has convince Joe and Greg that the talent is not important in the overall scheme of things . They are merely interchangeable pieces that can easily be replaced via the training camps. I don't agree but that appears to be what going on in ROH.
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AlexROH
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by AlexROH »

FanSinceHDNet wrote:
Brada wrote:Joe Koff needs to go if anyone wants change. I just don't understand his strong allegiance to Hunter.
More markets, bigger crowds, record revenue, largest viewing audience ever, etc. This, from what just about everyone has said, is a period of record growth for ROH since he took over full time from Cornette which is over four years ago now. That's four straight years presumably of being in the black which, compared to what Cary Silkin said on Cabana's podcast, is four more years than ROH had before. Final Battle just drew an unexpectedly large number, too, did it not?

Until attendance and interest drops and the affiliates ratings drop and the PPV buys drop, I don't know that there's a real great business case for anyone to go.
The economy in ROH maybe be great, yeah. But we, the fans, want a better product. I know they are a company and they will do whatever generates more money, but I want better in ring work, I want better storylines, characters... I want people on backstage and back in the office doing things well thinking in their audience. ROH needs to improve a lot of things.

Is like WWE, yeah, they are doing a lot of money but I can't care less about their product. I wouldn't mind having better shows and a lower audiencie. The main problem is that ROH want to grow more, and if they wanna arrive a main stream big audience their product need to change. I know it, but I fucking hate it. ROH wouldn't work on a bigger scale. I don't want them to become the TNA of 10-13.

2017 isn't looking good for ROH. With Koff/Delirious in charge nothing will change. Two years ago At least we has great world-class talent wrestlers that delivered Great matches.

I hate that being a bigger company in the USA means being a WWE 2.0. Look at EVOLVE, they are awesome but they have an smaller audience, just like ROH used to have.

I'll support this company and I will watch the shows, but men, they need to change.

(I needed to say everything that was going throught my mind).
SweetDaddy
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by SweetDaddy »

There's more than enough talent available to ROH to put forth a quality 1 hour a week show and a PPV every now and then.

I just don't believe in the talent ROH seems to be bringing in.

As a 30 year plus rasslin fan I'm judgemental and it takes quite a bit to pop me but when I first found ROH it got me.

I told me wife "I've found the good shit".

It seems to me like the roster has progressively gotten worse since that day to the point that now when it comes to non NJPW talent you have very little to choose from.

The bell cows are still there in Lethal, The Briscoes, and the Bucks but who's left to give us a fresh fued with?

Hell they're having trouble fielding an announce team let alone a quality roster.

ROH is apparently making money so interest must still be good but lets see how long it stays good with Lio Rush, The Tempura Boys, and The Kingdom keep getting prime spots.
famicommander
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by famicommander »

I think it's time for Delirious to go for more reasons than one but I am generally still enjoying the product more than any other major promotions save NJPW and LU. It's just lost that edge it had a few years back.

But all it takes is one hot feud or angle to reignite it. Especially considering ROH isn't fighting just to stay alive like TNA, LU, NOAH, and AAA have been recently.

I don't think Koff is going anywhere but he's going to have to step up and do something about Delirious eventually. If he doesn't want to fire him, let him keep running the Dojo, appearing occasionally on random cards, and maybe work as an agent or producer. But it's become clear that Hunter is wearing too many hats as ROH has grown up in recent years.
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AlexROH
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by AlexROH »

Is Lio Rush leaving ROH soon? I hope not. He's facing Marty Scurll this weekend and he just posted on YouTube an extrange promo about his future if he looses the match. I think he's going to win since it's just a Proving Ground and ROH needs to push some young talent. Plus, ROH RT the promo, so it would be part of an storyline.

However, I think he won't be at SCOH because he's announced for CZW's Best of the Best. But, correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't he been working for CZW almost every month since he arrived to ROH last year?

Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote:I don't think Bauer is right with the Sullivan thing.
I hope he's not right about the reasons they're not using Sullivan anymore, because if he's right it means not only did they fire someone due to a perceived political threat, but it means that they actually thought this Sullivan sh*t was good... and that they fired him due to a perceived political threat even though they thought it was good.
Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine »

FanSinceHDNet wrote:
Brada wrote:Joe Koff needs to go if anyone wants change. I just don't understand his strong allegiance to Hunter.
More markets, bigger crowds, record revenue, largest viewing audience ever, etc. This, from what just about everyone has said, is a period of record growth for ROH since he took over full time from Cornette which is over four years ago now. That's four straight years presumably of being in the black which, compared to what Cary Silkin said on Cabana's podcast, is four more years than ROH had before. Final Battle just drew an unexpectedly large number, too, did it not?

Until attendance and interest drops and the affiliates ratings drop and the PPV buys drop, I don't know that there's a real great business case for anyone to go.
Attendance has been dropping, though. One of the reasons everyone said ROH was growing was that they were putting up unexpectedly good numbers like drawing 1,000 in Hopkins in April 2015 despite no one thinking Hopkins was anything close to a 1,000 ticket market for ROH. They never did close to that again. Even the next show- SOTF Night 2, no less, drew less. There are very few places where attendance hasn't been down over the past two years, and most of those are decently small buildings that they are selling out (or coming close to it) and thus only holding steady. The Observer had San Antonio's numbers well down from what it was in 2015. Florida is down from 2015, and the number they put up in 2015 was pretty terrible for an ROH show in 2015. They only drew 700 in freakin' CHICAGO. That should be a huge f*cking warning sign.

The "more markets" thing doesn't matter unless they pull good numbers in the new markets. They can keep going to Florida and Nashville and Vegas all they want, but that's not a good thing unless they draw better there. Is it really good to keep wasting money to fly out to Vegas if you could do a lot better running more than two or three times a year in markets where ROH has always drawn well like NYC, Philly, and Toronto, or really trying to boost a market like Milwaukee that seems to have outgrown its building?
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Mr. Mojo Risin »

Big Red Machine wrote:
AlexROH wrote:I don't think Bauer is right with the Sullivan thing.
I hope he's not right about the reasons they're not using Sullivan anymore, because if he's right it means not only did they fire someone due to a perceived political threat, but it means that they actually thought this Sullivan sh*t was good... and that they fired him due to a perceived political threat even though they thought it was good.
Can you imagine the cloak and dagger meetings Delirious and Koff were having about Sullivan?
WHG
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by WHG »

Attendance has dropped from its peak (a long sellout streak in early 2015 that was mostly due to timing & circumstances like Del Rio's appearance and Samoa Joe's return), but it's not down across the board. Final Battle sold out quicker than War of the Worlds 2014, the Atlanta TV taping sold out, and the Pittsburgh crowd this weekend will be WAY up from last summer based on the advance.

They seem to have a pattern of building markets up and then struggling to maintain the peak when they run often. Nashville was a good example and it appears Vegas is becoming one as well.

I will say it again, but saying Koff has to go is the dumbest thing an ROH fan can say. He's probably the only person at Sinclair corporate who cares about ROH. And I'm not even a fan of his...at all. But he's the guy who convinced Sinclair to buy the company and there's literally no reason to think that anyone else at Sinclair wouldn't sell it or shut it down. Wrestling isn't a high return investment. It's like a WCW fan in the late 90s saying Ted Turner needs to go.
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine »

WHG wrote:Attendance has dropped from its peak (a long sellout streak in early 2015 that was mostly due to timing & circumstances like Del Rio's appearance and Samoa Joe's return), but it's not down across the board. Final Battle sold out quicker than War of the Worlds 2014, the Atlanta TV taping sold out, and the Pittsburgh crowd this weekend will be WAY up from last summer based on the advance.

They seem to have a pattern of building markets up and then struggling to maintain the peak when they run often. Nashville was a good example and it appears Vegas is becoming one as well.
FB 2016 was the return to Hammerstein after years of the hellhole that was Terminal 5. Tickets going more quickly for that PPV than for the first New Japan joint show doesn't shock me at all (don't forget that New Japan was an unknown quantity for much of the fanbase at that point).
As for your other point, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I think it's concerning that the definition of running a market too often is running it less frequently than ROH would run NYC, Philly, or Chicago back in the day and maintain or grow their attendance.
WHG wrote: I will say it again, but saying Koff has to go is the dumbest thing an ROH fan can say. He's probably the only person at Sinclair corporate who cares about ROH. And I'm not even a fan of his...at all. But he's the guy who convinced Sinclair to buy the company and there's literally no reason to think that anyone else at Sinclair wouldn't sell it or shut it down. Wrestling isn't a high return investment. It's like a WCW fan in the late 90s saying Ted Turner needs to go.
Koff is only a problem so long as he continues to be blind to Delirious' flaws.
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AlexROH
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by AlexROH »

PWTorch reports that Keith Lee had some problems during his last weekend in ROH. Idk what to think. I never saw him or Shane Taylor announced or confirmed to appear at the Honor Reigns Surpreme Show. If true, it's a weird thing.
-Keith Lee was advertised for his final ROH appearances last week in San Antonio on Feb. 2 and Dallas on Feb. 3 in his hometown. According to multiple sources, ROH officials had decided earlier in the week not to use him on Saturday, but for some reason this was never communicated to Lee until Friday night.

Lee teamed with Shane Taylor as scheduled to face The Briscoes on Friday in a match that was set up at ROH’s TV Tapings in January. When Lee got his check for the show on Friday, he noticed he had only been paid for one match.

Lee attempted to find out what the plans were for him in Dallas on Friday. According to one source, Lee couldn’t find ROH booker Delirious to find out what was going on. Eventually an ROH official informed Lee he was off of the show on Friday. Another source noted that if Lee had been able to wrestle in Dallas, he would have been able to say goodbye to the company in front of his hometown fans.

One longtime ROH wrestler noted that they were happy that Lee was done with the coming. Many wrestlers were unhappy last month when ROH signed Shane Taylor to a contract, but Lee ended up announcing he was going to sign with EVOLVE. Lee made the announcement in January on his Twitter account a day after the ROH TV tapings had taken place.
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by BurningHammer »

Personally I don't see the problem, ROH doesn't have to give Lee any sort of send off or special treatment, he wasn't under contract, hadn't really built any foundation of longevity and had just signed with a "rival" promotion. ROH didn't owe him any sort of obligation and him wrestling would just be giving him another pay day that ROH in the long term isn't going to make anything from. Obviously Delirious should have spoken to him but does it really matter, he isn't the first person to jib out of doing something like that.
BurningHammer
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by BurningHammer »

AlexROH wrote:Is Lio Rush leaving ROH soon? I hope not. He's facing Marty Scurll this weekend and he just posted on YouTube an extrange promo about his future if he looses the match. I think he's going to win since it's just a Proving Ground and ROH needs to push some young talent. Plus, ROH RT the promo, so it would be part of an storyline.

However, I think he won't be at SCOH because he's announced for CZW's Best of the Best. But, correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't he been working for CZW almost every month since he arrived to ROH last year?

Yeah he has, it was either a pre agreement or ROH has been very lenient with him taking bookings. I hope he does stay as the push he has wanted has come and character he is building has something to it now after a year in the company. For me that was a far better promo than most he has given despite it's set up, guys really need to start looking at creating a much better visual for themselves, sitting in a pro wrestling T's shirt with a towel round you isn't going to portray your desperation or emotion at "dropping the ball" that heavily.
nickdiamante
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by nickdiamante »

Hey guys! I'm Nick and this is my first time posting here. I look forward to joining the fun!

In terms of ROH's issues, if you ask me, it's hard not to blame the WWE for all of this.

It's no secret that WWE is trying to sign everyone and anyone. ROH has lost a number of great talents because of this. I used to love WWE, but I stopped watching them about 10 years ago. In fact, I stopped watching wrestling for about 2 years. I remember flipping the channels on my TV one day, and seeing a commercial for ROH TV on FOX. I was excited, and have been a fan ever since. Then I started going to ROH live events when SCUM was on top, and I was pleasantly surprised at the amazing live action I was seeing!

Then AJ Styles came to ROH. His matches with guys like Elgin, Cole, O'Reilly, Strong, and Hanson helped me re-discover my love for wrestling! Then, because of Styles and the Bullet Club, I got into New Japan as well. Back in the day when I was a WWF/E fan, I would have never imagined myself watching Japanese Wrestling. Now, I can't get enough of it!

The only reason I even keep WWE on the radar now is because I still like to see guys like Owens and Styles, and I want to see what they do with work-horses like Strong and Alexander. So far, Roddy has been a bust because he needs to have those fast-paced indy-style matches to be exciting. And I don't see that happening in WWE.

I feel bad for ROH. Yeah, maybe they've got a lot of backstage politics. Maybe things could be a lot better. And yes, maybe they could do a lot of things differently in order to keep things fresh. But when you constantly have talent going to WWE because it's the easy way for them to get paid good money, how can you compete? How can you run consistent storylines when talent is constantly getting plucked away?

And then they go to WWE, and they don't have those 5-star matches anymore. This is going to hurt the industry in the long run. Eventually WWE is going to have to try to make their own stars again. But they haven't done a great job of that over the last 10 years. And the majority of the WWE top-card guys came from ROH. What happens if ROH goes under, and WWE is forced to try harder to create stars again? Crappy gimmicks, short-term thinking, and lack of stars will make WWE less than enjoyable for fans like us who enjoy pro wrestling.

I'm going to ROH's War of the Worlds tour in Toronto this May as I have been for the last few years, and I am looking forward to it! But, I'm scared about the future of pro wrestling. A WWE-monopoly is the worst thing that can happen. And I think it's hard to blame ROH when they keep getting talent plucked away from them.

Wrestling needs another billionaire to come along and start up a competitive rival company. Or else, the WWE will never try again the way they were trying when WCW was nipping at their heels.

Sad state, I tell ya!
Big Red Machine
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by Big Red Machine »

nickdiamante wrote:
But when you constantly have talent going to WWE because it's the easy way for them to get paid good money, how can you compete? How can you run consistent storylines when talent is constantly getting plucked away?
Because if you sign a guy to a one-year contract, then you know you have one year to tell your stories with him. ROH hasn't been doing that. They sign guy to contracts, then don't do anything with them other than have them wwrestle in random matches unless they're Lethal or Cole or Briscoe.
JTCole
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by JTCole »

Blaming WWE on ROH problems? Haha

And Roddy looks exactly the same in NXT and is getting over there, that's surely the definition of a "bust".
nickdiamante
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by nickdiamante »

There are limitations in ROH, obviously. Only 1 hour of weekly programming, and they are taped a month in advance. It's hard to fit everyone in and get a natural flow to your storylines. But the good thing that happens is feuds generally last longer because they are addressed on TV over a longer period of time.

And how can ROH afford to sign guys for more than a year? We're not dealing with a huge corporation like WWE. ROH can't be compared to WCW. ROH can be compared to ECW, at best, in terms of where they stand in the pecking order of strong wrestling promotions. And ECW was never anywhere close to competing with WWE.

Hey, the reality is... where would WWE be without ROH and others? And where would they be had they not signed other guys like Styles, Joe and Nakamura who became stars outside of WWE? Take away Rollins, Styles, Joe, Owens, Nakamura, etc and the WWE's current product would be absolute trash. EVENTUALLY, WWE has to try to make stars too.

I'm of the mentality that NO wrestling company is currently writing compelling storylines. Not WWE, ROH, NJPW, TNA. Hell, Lucha Underground probably has the most compelling storylines these days, and it's hard to compare them to others because they are a TV program, not a Wrestling company. So, if there aren't any interesting storylines, the next thing I look for is exciting in-ring work. WWE is the biggest wrestling company in the world, but they do not produce the best in-ring product. Wrestlers can't do certain moves in WWE. The matches are much slower paced. The ring is huge, so guys like Roddy don't come across as speed-demons the way they do in ROH or PWG.

And speaking of Roddy... I wouldn't say he has wrestled a single match in NXT that is anywhere as good as his ROH stuff. Is he getting over in NXT? How? With his promos? Definitely not. His matches look much slower in a larger ring. If you ask me, Roddy is one of those guys who will go nowhere in WWE and will eventually come back and start killing it again in ROH or somewhere else. Roddy's NXT match quality is a bust thus far, IMO. But hey, that's just me. I still remember his 60 minute draw vs. Lethal in ROH. That's the kind of stuff Roddy should be doing.
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Re: ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

Post by nickdiamante »

JTCole wrote:Blaming WWE on ROH problems? Haha
What is so far-fetched about this?

WWE is the biggest wrestling company in the world. They're the company most of these current talents grew up watching. It only makes sense that they would one day want to wrestle there. You can't blame the wrestlers for wanting to work there, especially because they pay a lot more than other companies. None of this is a surprise to anyone. The lay of the land is what it is, and has been since WCW went under. No pressure for WWE to compete, thus they don't try as hard to make their product as good as it was in the Attitude Era.

My beef with WWE is simple:

- Their in-ring product generally sucks. Short matches. Wrestlers always come to WWE and suddenly there are moves that they can't/don't use anymore (ie. KO's Package Piledriver). If you're the best company in the world, shouldn't you have the best matches and overall product? Yes. Then why do most of us have to go to ROH, NJPW, and PWG for good action?

- They've lost touch with what used to make them great. Their storylines are inconsistent and often lame. When is the last time WWE ran a GOOD storyline? Seriously.

- They don't know how to make stars anymore. Some of the guys on the roster are people that we don't want to see in the manner they are currently presented to us (Ziggler, Ellsworth, O'Neal, The Miz, Ryder, almost any Tag Team on Smackdown, at least half the Cruiserweight Division, etc.) They also don't care how hard we boo guys like Cena and Reigns. Who cares what the fans think? They'll learn to love these guys! lol

So when a company like the WWE signs all the talent away from ROH... Wrestling suffers as a whole. And that means ROH suffers.

Would ROH be in the situation they are now had WWE not taken a good chunk of their talent?
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