ALL PURPOSE CONTRACT STATUS/POTENTIAL DEPARTURES THREAD

[monster mafia]

is the best for ach and for roh,now i think they need to change the six man team for final battle

now use that money on kincaid,gresham and lio rush.

[FanSinceHDNet]

According to PWInsider it looks like ACH is done with ROH.

Hopefully that means he'll end up somewhere they actually will look passed his ROH early years. It seems like ROH never got behind him after one missed flight in 2014. It's sad because he could have been a bigger star.

Starting to see a trend though Cedric, Moose, Stokely, ACH... just can't put my finger on what they all have in common.

and There is, Rush, Caprice, King, Gresham and Larry Legend is back with the company. I'm not saying their isn't a total race issue but just say it and we can have a discussion about it as it needs to be talked about openly far more.

Also not saying there is a race issue, but ROH has also lost or stopped using over the last year plus-ish:

Mike Bennett (Impact)

Maria (Impact)

Ciampa (Indies then WWE)

Roddy (WWE)

AJ Styles (WWE)

Gallows (WWE)

Anderson (WWE)

Josh Alexander (retired and then passport issues?)

Cliff Compton (retired)

Brian Kendrick (begins training Eva Marie after quick end of 2014 ROH run, finds way back to WWE)

Michael Elgin (NJPW)

Those fellows could all could be classified as Caucasian.

Compare them to the African American folks that left:

Cedric (goes to WWE camp, is told to drop 25 lbs, does, lighter, faster, and stronger. Looks better than he ever has in final ROH appearance. Goes to WWE.)

Moose (gets over in ROH, gets offer reportedly 2x or more greater than ROH and WWE offer from Impact.)

Stokely (starts working with WWN simultaneous to ROH. Impresses someone at WWN, main charge leaves ROH.)

ACH (has some documented immaturity issues, but ROH also seemingly has walked back some promises. Latter half seems to be an amplified version of what happened with Cedric. This one is the one I'd point to if there was more beneath the surface.)

On the whole, there has been quantitatively more Caucasian folks that have left under random circumstances. Now, ROH tends to employ a higher percentage of minority stars than most companies historically have. At the same time, minorities make up a much smaller percentage of both the US population and the population of professional wrestlers, so any loss should be taken seriously.

I think, though, since the start of 2015, the quantitative evidence fights against the racial narrative. When spots opened up, Rush, Kenny King, Gresham, Lee, and Taylor all earned them, as well as a full time return from Prince Nana and what seemed to be an increase use of Sampson Walker before he got hurt.

[Brada]

ACH was never mature enough so i'm glad both can move on, ROH wasted an exclusive contract on him, hope they can use the money better now, hope ACH can grow up and become a star outside of the company too.

Is your opinion on his maturity based on his one comment at another show? Just curious as to why you think he should grow up?

[187_Joeism]

ACH was never mature enough so i'm glad both can move on, ROH wasted an exclusive contract on him, hope they can use the money better now, hope ACH can grow up and become a star outside of the company too.

Is your opinion on his maturity based on his one comment at another show? Just curious as to why you think he should grow up?

Plane incident, various backstage problems, and the recent comments at another show, i don´t someone proffesional would do any of that.

[Wilson]

I hope ACH does better elsewhere; he really deserves it.

And I still think ROH does a commendable job of representation for black Americans, that is if proportion is indeed a valuable enough metric of representation itself.

[Wilson]

Also, I wish to say that Joeism is clearly a militant detractor of anime and all things Gum-Gum.

Crooked comments on the board. Absolutely criminal.

[ndp]

Well the one positive of an ACH departure would mean the horrible alphabetizing on the roster page of Adam (Cole) – ACH – Adam (Page) that I believe it's been since AJ left, whose name also somehow came before ACH, would finally be fixed.

[leenie426]

According to PWInsider it looks like ACH is done with ROH.

Hopefully that means he'll end up somewhere they actually will look passed his ROH early years. It seems like ROH never got behind him after one missed flight in 2014. It's sad because he could have been a bigger star.

Starting to see a trend though Cedric, Moose, Stokely, ACH... just can't put my finger on what they all have in common.

and There is, Rush, Caprice, King, Gresham and Larry Legend is back with the company. I'm not saying their isn't a total race issue but just say it and we can have a discussion about it as it needs to be talked about openly far more.

Lio Rush - don't be shocked if in February/March you hear Lio Rush is not re-signing

Caprice Coleman - they are doing a fine job if you think having him act like a stereotypical jive talk african american is fine

Kenny King - they'll never do more then they already are bc he did walk out while tag team champion.

Larry Legend - was fired from his warehouse / ROH Pro Shop gig aka full time employment. Bringing him back as talking microphone for local events has no heath coverage.

ACH was promised on many occasions that he was going to get a run with the TV title or him & Sydal (another issue all together) were going to have a run with the tag belts -- neither happened.

A lot of this falls on the booker, instead of being honest with the wrestlers, allegedly he tells them what they want to hear or ignores them all together. Ever since the elimination of George Carroll, there has been little to no direction. Carroll was the guy who came up with the idea & character of redragon.

Speaking of Fish & Kyle their deals are up on January 1st, and word is that they aren't staying with ROH, instead looking to go full time to New Japan or even NXT. NXT is severely lacking in the tag team division right now, i mean the Dusty Classic is made up of mostly throw together teams. redragon would do very well there.

[leenie426]

According to PWInsider it looks like ACH is done with ROH.

Hopefully that means he'll end up somewhere they actually will look passed his ROH early years. It seems like ROH never got behind him after one missed flight in 2014. It's sad because he could have been a bigger star.

Starting to see a trend though Cedric, Moose, Stokely, ACH... just can't put my finger on what they all have in common.

and There is, Rush, Caprice, King, Gresham and Larry Legend is back with the company. I'm not saying their isn't a total race issue but just say it and we can have a discussion about it as it needs to be talked about openly far more.

Also not saying there is a race issue, but ROH has also lost or stopped using over the last year plus-ish:

Mike Bennett (Impact)

Maria (Impact)

Ciampa (Indies then WWE)

Roddy (WWE)

AJ Styles (WWE)

Gallows (WWE)

Anderson (WWE)

Josh Alexander (retired and then passport issues?)

Cliff Compton (retired)

Brian Kendrick (begins training Eva Marie after quick end of 2014 ROH run, finds way back to WWE)

Michael Elgin (NJPW)

Those fellows could all could be classified as Caucasian.

Compare them to the African American folks that left:

Cedric (goes to WWE camp, is told to drop 25 lbs, does, lighter, faster, and stronger. Looks better than he ever has in final ROH appearance. Goes to WWE.)

Moose (gets over in ROH, gets offer reportedly 2x or more greater than ROH and WWE offer from Impact.)

Stokely (starts working with WWN simultaneous to ROH. Impresses someone at WWN, main charge leaves ROH.)

ACH (has some documented immaturity issues, but ROH also seemingly has walked back some promises. Latter half seems to be an amplified version of what happened with Cedric. This one is the one I'd point to if there was more beneath the surface.)

On the whole, there has been quantitatively more Caucasian folks that have left under random circumstances. Now, ROH tends to employ a higher percentage of minority stars than most companies historically have. At the same time, minorities make up a much smaller percentage of both the US population and the population of professional wrestlers, so any loss should be taken seriously.

I think, though, since the start of 2015, the quantitative evidence fights against the racial narrative. When spots opened up, Rush, Kenny King, Gresham, Lee, and Taylor all earned them, as well as a full time return from Prince Nana and what seemed to be an increase use of Sampson Walker before he got hurt.

Mike Bennett - wasn't even offered a counter offer to whatever he signed with TNA for. How do you not even offer a World Tag Team champion & top heel in a top heel faction.

Maria (Impact) - see above. Furthermore it's said that Maria got tired of no feedback on idea after idea that she would submit to Johnston regarding direction. It's even said that she fell out of favor with Joe Koff, which is strange because he is a big mark for former WWE stars.

Ciampa (Indies then WWE) - a guy were a hell of a lot of upside. Fell out of favor with Koff.

Roddy (WWE) - it was probably time.

AJ Styles, Gallows, Anderson (WWE) - they were really part timers on loan from New Japan.

Josh Alexander (retired and then passport issues?)

Cliff Compton (retired) - part timer

Brian Kendrick - ROH dropped the ball with him. Came in as a favor to Cary Silken, and was never followed up with.

Michael Elgin (NJPW) - completely bad booking by ROH never sabotaged his career.

Those fellows could all could be classified as Caucasian.

Compare them to the African American folks that left:

Cedric - has/had a reputation for hurting people.

Moose - he was treated as 6'6" job guy to get talent over

Stokely - was lied to on numerous occasions by Johnston, and left on his own to go to WWN, where in the last 6 months he has been used better than at anytime in ROH.

ACH - already covered. plenty of unfulfilled promises from Johnston.

[BurningHammer]

Lio Rush - don't be shocked if in February/March you hear Lio Rush is not re-signing

Caprice Coleman - they are doing a fine job if you think having him act like a stereotypical jive talk african american is fine

Kenny King - they'll never do more then they already are bc he did walk out while tag team champion.

Larry Legend - was fired from his warehouse / ROH Pro Shop gig aka full time employment. Bringing him back as talking microphone for local events has no heath coverage.

ACH was promised on many occasions that he was going to get a run with the TV title or him & Sydal (another issue all together) were going to have a run with the tag belts -- neither happened.

A lot of this falls on the booker, instead of being honest with the wrestlers, allegedly he tells them what they want to hear or ignores them all together. Ever since the elimination of George Carroll, there has been little to no direction. Carroll was the guy who came up with the idea & character of redragon.

Speaking of Fish & Kyle their deals are up on January 1st, and word is that they aren't staying with ROH, instead looking to go full time to New Japan or even NXT. NXT is severely lacking in the tag team division right now, i mean the Dusty Classic is made up of mostly throw together teams. redragon would do very well there.

What! ROH hired Larry back in that capacity just so they don't have to pay him health insurance, my god surely that is an insane assumption.

George Carroll had a much bigger role within the company than booking, which is being seen in some instances and ROH suffering in. He was apart of forming Red Dragon yes as well as giving idea's for finishes and an angle hear and there but his main duties were far larger and wider. Also considering the real bullshit finishes that had been happening prior to his release it might have been best for him to go, he is also welcome back at another point if it's needed.

Fish is 40, so if he is going to go it's going to have to be soon because he is already showing signs of his age and not being able to follow through with high quality matches. Kyle is an exceptional talent but he really where I think WWE would draw the line for aesthetics, I could be wrong though.

ACH would have won the TV title, but he missed his flight and with a few other screw ups and ROH just being shit with him have made it end in this mess for both parties.

They've made Kenny King prominent in both TV and promo time and that's a big thing in any wrestling company and looking at the growth of the group through TV tapings, he could be a major player moving forward.

Overall there's been more direction since he has left, if you look at where everyone is now, bar a couple of people everyone has role, a group a form of something. I'm not in anyway saying it's perfect but it's actually been a darn sight better since he left.

Also Elgin was totally to blame for his circumstances, the guy had got to the peak of his career and felt he couldn't go any further because Japan at the time wasn't an option and he was desperate for it, I mean the guy even tried out for a Baseball team that's how far he had fallen. Plus his matches had become very formulaic to many fans I think the fans failed to buy into it more than anything to do with booking.

[Big Red Machine]

Kenny King - they'll never do more then they already are bc he did walk out while tag team champion.

If this was really an issue they never would have brought him back in the first place.

[supersonic]

Read from this point onward - http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/forum/ ... 640#p42170

[jordidebaas]

Well, that was like 5 precious minutes of my life wasted on reading people on the internet arguing over who's right... this seems way to familiar

[Wilson]

Read from this point onward - http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/forum/ ... 640#p42170

All most people that follow the product can do is to wait for other news to be made public. In general, I wish that more of the major wrestling reporters would cover ROH better than they do, but I understand that it’s a matter of triage and balancing resources. ROH probably is just not popular enough to warrant better coverage.

ACH’s time in ROH is probably the most egregious instance of talented workers being interned in “midcard Hell”. He came in at a great time in his career to be entering a platform like ROH in 2012-2013. Being booked on PWG, Chikara, and ROH, those short few months saw him break out and get over rather quickly. ROH built him slowly as a part of team (that was overbalanced and relied too heavily on ACH’s ability) until that team earned a shot against reDRagon in early 2014. ACH was far too good to be saddled with a rough project like TaDarius Thomas, so they split and ACH earned a World Title shot against Cole and then a TV Title shot against Lethal. In about seven months, he did more than he would do in the two years that would follow All Star Extravaganza VI. He missed his flight for what could have been his first championship win in ROH. If he had won then, it would still heretofore be his greatest victory. Clearly, ROH disavowed their notions to build further into ACH. His last championship opportunity was during of the first dates of 2015. Looking back, one might argue that ROH held onto him to prevent his star being made elsewhere or to potentially use him if other, more desirable options failed. He has held no championship and has had very limited breakout wins in ROH.

I always thought that ACH could improve as a babyface, or forego that alignment to play a heel. Commentator Steve Corino often alluded to ACH rubbing people the wrong way. As a character, ACH might have done well tapping into that and becoming a sort of one-man Young Buck, irreverently diverging and playing into independent wrestling tropes. He still has a lot of potential to do really well for himself and do interesting things.

[DXvsNWO1994]

Read from this point onward - http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/forum/ ... 640#p42170

All most people that follow the product can do is to wait for other news to be made public. In general, I wish that more of the major wrestling reporters would cover ROH better than they do, but I understand that it’s a matter of triage and balancing resources. ROH probably is just not popular enough to warrant better coverage.

That's my main issue with all of the controversies surround ROH right now. I just want the major wrestling news sites/people to actually report what's going on, because that's stuff that should be known. I don't want guys giving a "ROH Office Line". We wouldn't even know about this stuff if it wasn't for certain people on Twitter, like rovert. I get that you want to protect sources, but journalism is supposed to be objective (though if history has shown us anything, journalism is rarely truly subjective).

[monster mafia]

Read from this point onward - http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/forum/ ... 640#p42170

let that on vow,this is another forum,stop.

[187_Joeism]

Read from this point onward - http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/forum/ ... 640#p42170

All most people that follow the product can do is to wait for other news to be made public. In general, I wish that more of the major wrestling reporters would cover ROH better than they do, but I understand that it’s a matter of triage and balancing resources. ROH probably is just not popular enough to warrant better coverage.

That's my main issue with all of the controversies surround ROH right now. I just want the major wrestling news sites/people to actually report what's going on, because that's stuff that should be known. I don't want guys giving a "ROH Office Line". We wouldn't even know about this stuff if it wasn't for certain people on Twitter, like rovert. I get that you want to protect sources, but journalism is supposed to be objective (though if history has shown us anything, journalism is rarely truly subjective).

My main issue with that is that nobody is fair, everyone has some sort of agenda and we talk about the bad stuff only or the good stuff only, nobody does both. That is the reason i cannot fully trust those sources either.

[FanSinceHDNet]

I think you guys are assuming this George Carroll person did a lot more than he did.

Everything that Meltzer and Johnson have ever said is that Delirious, Kevin Kelly, Steve Corino, Christopher Daniels, and BJ Whitmer have been the ones making the final decisions for quite some time.

The only thing I've ever heard George Carroll participate in was helping mold reDRagon. Yeah, they've been super successful, but in reality, it seems to be from the sparse amount of interviews out there, a lot of the character development is "Guy X says he wants to do Y, ends up with feedback, does Z." There is a lack of reporting on ROH, for sure, but what there has been indicates that the company is pretty free-flowing.

Side note: what's ROH's policy on guys doing interviews or podcasts? There's very few ROH guys that do podcasts or interviews. Internal policy, maybe?

[Big Red Machine]

and what seemed to be an increase use of Sampson Walker before he got hurt.

Ah. I'd been wondering what happened to him.

[FanSinceHDNet]

and what seemed to be an increase use of Sampson Walker before he got hurt.

Ah. I'd been wondering what happened to him.

Yeah, he had that match against Roddy and was featured on TV a few times but I'm pretty sure I read on his Twitter that he got hurt early in 2016.