Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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JTCole
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by JTCole »

I actually think this whole Roman vs AJ story is a pretty good example of "shades of grey" done correctly.
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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Thelone wrote:You need strong babyfaces for the heels to get some kind of heat. Of course ROH has none of that so the heels are wildly cheered when they beat up half the roster.

Nowadays, this "shades of gray" bullshit might as well just mean "I'm a shitty booker who can't even get the basics right".
This is not a ROH problem, just name 10 true heels in the current wrestling scene
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JTCole
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by JTCole »

187_Joeism wrote:
Thelone wrote:You need strong babyfaces for the heels to get some kind of heat. Of course ROH has none of that so the heels are wildly cheered when they beat up half the roster.

Nowadays, this "shades of gray" bullshit might as well just mean "I'm a shitty booker who can't even get the basics right".
This is not a ROH problem, just name 10 true heels in the current wrestling scene
BJ Whitmer, Kevin Owens, Miz... hmm
187_Joeism
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by 187_Joeism »

Owens is a great heel but he is like Cole, loved by everyone.
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supersonic
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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A heel can still be an effective villain while also being over as shit with the audience.

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Northwoods_Nightmare
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by Northwoods_Nightmare »

Thelone wrote:You need strong babyfaces for the heels to get some kind of heat. Of course ROH has none of that so the heels are wildly cheered when they beat up half the roster.

Nowadays, this "shades of gray" bullshit might as well just mean "I'm a shitty booker who can't even get the basics right".
I don't buy into that. You don't need someone that everyone loves vs someone everyone hates, as long as the fans are passionate that's really what matters. You need someone that gets a reaction from people. I know that's the typical WWE John Cena defense, but it's true.
Look at Conor McGregor. He's made the UFC more money than anyone in history. He has the biggest PPV buy rates, and massive amounts of interest in his fights. He's also one of the most polarizing figures ever. Some people worship him and others completely hate him. He's a total cocky heel persona, but he'd definitely not getting booed out of buildings (unless he's in Brazil but that's a different issue). Pro wrestling doesn't need traditional wrestling characters, wrestling needs some Conor McGregors.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by Big Red Machine »

JTCole wrote:
187_Joeism wrote:
Thelone wrote:You need strong babyfaces for the heels to get some kind of heat. Of course ROH has none of that so the heels are wildly cheered when they beat up half the roster.

Nowadays, this "shades of gray" bullshit might as well just mean "I'm a shitty booker who can't even get the basics right".
This is not a ROH problem, just name 10 true heels in the current wrestling scene
BJ Whitmer, Kevin Owens, Miz... hmm
Eva Marie, Alexa Bliss, Baron Corbin, Caleb Konley, The Revival, Chris Jericho, Matt Hardy, Mike Bennett, the entirety of Suzuki-Gun...
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by Big Red Machine »

Northwoods_Nightmare wrote:
Thelone wrote:You need strong babyfaces for the heels to get some kind of heat. Of course ROH has none of that so the heels are wildly cheered when they beat up half the roster.

Nowadays, this "shades of gray" bullshit might as well just mean "I'm a shitty booker who can't even get the basics right".
I don't buy into that. You don't need someone that everyone loves vs someone everyone hates, as long as the fans are passionate that's really what matters. You need someone that gets a reaction from people. I know that's the typical WWE John Cena defense, but it's true.
Look at Conor McGregor. He's made the UFC more money than anyone in history. He has the biggest PPV buy rates, and massive amounts of interest in his fights. He's also one of the most polarizing figures ever. Some people worship him and others completely hate him. He's a total cocky heel persona, but he'd definitely not getting booed out of buildings (unless he's in Brazil but that's a different issue). Pro wrestling doesn't need traditional wrestling characters, wrestling needs some Conor McGregors.
Except that ROH doesn't have someone playing the Connor McGregor role. The Bucks and Cole are cocky, yes, but they are also doing legitimately despicable heel things like assaulting innocent people and cheating in their matches. Same with Lethal to a lesser extent.
EVOLVE is currently doing a tremendous job of having... not quite shades of gray, as there are pretty clear faces and heels, but most of the heels (Hero and Catchpoint being perfect examples) aren't doing things that are despicable enough that someone who is a complete and total mark would not understand why people in audience might cheer for them. ROH doesn't have that right now.
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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supersonic wrote:A heel can still be an effective villain while also being over as shit with the audience.

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The Joker was a compelling character, but ultimately the audience does not want him to actually succeed because the fundamental storytelling in that movie is sound in a way it rarely is lately in wrestling.

One important question in the issue of "It doesn't matter if they're faces or heels, it just matters if they get a reaction" is "What happens to their opponents?"

Ric Flair in his prime - everyone he worked with got elevated.

Connor McGregor - everyone he works with gets elevated

NWO - everyone they work with gets buried

John Cena - everyone he works with gets elevated

HHH - everyone he works with gets buried (a few rare exceptions)

Kevin Steen in ROH - everyone he worked with besides Generico was buried (and sometimes Generico as well). Note how quickly they got Jay Briscoe away from him after the quick build and title change.

Bullet Club - ?

The Bucks scoop all the face heat and all the heel heat in their matches. That's what happens with cool heels who never show ass. The opponents get nothing; they're just hapless props there to be in some spots.
Big Red Machine
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by Big Red Machine »

Burnside wrote:
Kevin Steen in ROH - everyone he worked with besides Generico was buried (and sometimes Generico as well). Note how quickly they got Jay Briscoe away from him after the quick build and title change.
I'm going to argue with you about this one. The only guy who was worse off after working with Kevin Steen was Davey Richards, and while Steen's popularity had something to do with that, there were other factors as well. Some people (I'm not one of them) were upset with the main event booking and felt it was way too focused around the trio of Eddie, Davey, and Roddy. Others (and I am one of these) had been growing quite unhappy that Davey was an absentee champion. Cornette's ban on piledrivers also contributed to making Davey feel like the heel because it restricted the use of Steen's best-known finisher (and when was the last time Davey used a DR Driver?).
As for the others who had any sort of program with Steen, Rhett was hurt when his program was abandoned for the Steen vs. Lethal program, which started out as a basically a repeat of the Steen vs. Titus program except that instead of being motivated to help fight for ROH because he was loyal to the company, Lethal was motivated by a poorly-done non-finish to a main event. Lethal was actually elevated during his program with Steen and only fell back down afterwards due to a lack of follow-up in the way he was booked.
Elgin, IMO, was absolutely elevated by working with Steen, and it's hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise. With Jay Briscoe, it's utterly impossible to see how anyone could argue otherwise.
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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During Steen's heel run in that period, look at him vs various random babyface challengers. The structure of the match was nearly always "Witty, amusing, and friendly heel Kevin Steen is wrestling a child and outwitting him at every turn."
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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Even as a face, I still remember a match against Taven (who was the TV champ at the time) where he squashed him for like ten minutes like a complete jobber and Taven only won via some banana peel finish I don't even recall.
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supersonic
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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Observer:
Adam Cole is expecting to be slotted in the heavyweight division and not the junior heavyweight division.
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STITCHES
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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Big Red Machine wrote:quote="187_Joeism"]This is not a ROH problem, just name 10 true heels in the current wrestling scene
Eva Marie, Alexa Bliss, Baron Corbin, Caleb Konley, The Revival, Chris Jericho, Matt Hardy, Mike Bennett, the entirety of Suzuki-Gun...[/quote]

Mike Bennett's a good example. Can't stand that guy.

But yeah, the lack of heel threat is pretty obvious these days. I find myself more annoyed with wrestlers I just simply don't like rather than considering any wrestler a true "bad guy."
Memphis Mark
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by Memphis Mark »

Adam Cole will do great in NJPW. The makeup of the NJPW crowd is different from ROH. There are lots of young women in the NJPW crowd and Cole will appeal to that demographic. AC is going to sell a lot of tickets to young Japanese women and hopefully increase their female fan base. He should be a strong money draw for NJPW .
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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Memphis Mark wrote:Adam Cole will do great in NJPW. The makeup of the NJPW crowd is different from ROH. There are lots of young women in the NJPW crowd and Cole will appeal to that demographic. AC is going to sell a lot of tickets to young Japanese women and hopefully increase their female fan base. He should be a strong money draw for NJPW .
I’ve just talked to Adam Cole’s people, and it seems like they’re in the know. In what will be a major marketing push for this gaijin, Cole’s entrance is speculated to incorporate chibified bullets which shall have personalities that correspond to different Zodiac deities and for Ayumi Nakamura to perform his theme song. “Kawaii” Adam Cole is going to blow up big time: a shojo manga series, Baybay bento boxes, full scale body pillows, etc.

Hearing that the impression so far of Cole is to be a heavyweight is relieving news. I’m now much more excited to see him in that environment.
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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I really don't see where he will fit into the division at all.
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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NEVER title maybe, but he's not an old surly guy so he doesn't fit there either. I always thought Cole would be an odd fit in NJPW and even more so in the Bullet Club. You might as well put him in the junior division since the Bucks aren't going solo anytime soon.
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

Post by DXvsNWO1994 »

So this update pretty much says that Meltzer's initial report was false (I believe he said immediately after the Bullet Club angle at the PPV that Cole was going to be a junior). Really not sure where he's going to fit in, especially with Omega being the Intercontinental Champion. He could be in the NEVER Openweight Title conversation, but that's been dominated by Shibata and the New Japan "dads" since Shibata took the title from Ishii. It'll be interesting to see where Cole is placed (as well as Page, for that matter).
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Re: Adam Cole's expected NJPW tenure

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Thelone wrote:NEVER title maybe, but he's not an old surly guy so he doesn't fit there either.
Wasn't the NEVER title originally meant for younger talent? What happened?
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