TURMOIL/LIKELY ROSTER DEPARTURES - DEVELOPING STORY

[The Dragon Saga]

To date, both proved to creatively be one trick ponies. Bischoff with the nWo, Johnston with the Briscoe vs. Lethal build.

Plus with the Briscoe/Cole feud.

Plus the story itself of Michael Elgin capturing the ROH World title.

Plus Jay Briscoe's entire title reign and his storyline that made him legit seem crazy.

Plus reDRagon's entire run, The New Streak, Jay Lethal's heel turn and subsequent rise to actual stardom and on and on and on.

Once again, an example of Delirious getting either too much flack for minimal things hes done or not enough credit for the numerous good things he has good. But as I mentioned earlier, there is a contingent of people on this board who do this, regularly, day in and day out without hesitation. It's consistent, expected but not true.

And as DX mentioned, we all know Adam Cole will inevitably sign with WWE. This is a nothing story. "Adam Cole's leaving, brother, he's goin' to the big leagues to steer the ship for Paul in the boys!" "Oh cool, will he debut at the next Takeover then dude?" "No, he'll debut in about a year, when his contract expires." "Uh... wait, what?"

That's how this all sounds. "Man to leave promotion in one year when his contract expires". When the fuck else is he going to leave?!

[Saintpat]

If 25 percent of the roster is gone within a relatively short amount of time, I'll say I heard it here first.

I just don't think things are that desperate at the moment. If anything, the trend for ROH over, say, the last 2-3 years is WAY up.

I've gone to three shows in Atlanta in the last couple of years. Great crowds. They had to move into a bigger arena for the third one and still a huge turnout. I hope they're coming back soon.

As for booking, I'll take the bad (or average) with the good. I like ROH's use of "drive-by" talent -- bringing in Stevie Ray or AJ or the Bullet Club guys or Joe or Liger or Colt or whoever they can use on a short-term basis to mix things up and give us fresh matchups and a chance to see some indie "big names" on a kind of rotating basis. I like some of the angles like the Kingdom's formation, making BJ Whitmer (a guy who most people thought had no future just a few short years ago) into the most hated guy in the promotion, Briscoe-Lethal, the nice Roddy run last year, etc., etc.

Sure, there's some clunkers. Sure there's some guys who might have potential who haven't yet been given the right ride to live up to it. That's true in everything -- wrestling, acting, music, sports ... Hell, in life.

But overall, ROH really appeals to me. I've been two two Evolve shows live and there's absolutely no comparison. I can't say I keep up with everything that promotion does, but having experienced it's like the difference between sixth grade and college. I can't see how anyone can equate the two promotions on a booking level.

[supersonic]

To date, both proved to creatively be one trick ponies. Bischoff with the nWo, Johnston with the Briscoe vs. Lethal build.

Plus with the Briscoe/Cole feud.

No longtime or lapsed ROH viewer holds that in regard with the elite arcs in company history. Get out of the bubble.

Plus the story itself of Michael Elgin capturing the ROH World title.

A story in which I said wouldn't end well due to holes in his game. I was proven right by his cold title reign.

Plus Jay Briscoe's entire title reign and his storyline that made him legit seem crazy.

That's a piece of the BITW 2015 build.

Plus reDRagon's entire run

Which has primarily just been matches with dry angles.

The New Streak

May as well pay Bischoff on the back for Jericho '98 then.

Jay Lethal's heel turn and subsequent rise to actual stardom and on and on and on.

A piece of the BITW 2015 build.

Once again, an example of Delirious getting either too much flack for minimal things hes done or not enough credit for the numerous good things he has good. But as I mentioned earlier, there is a contingent of people on this board who do this, regularly, day in and day out without hesitation. It's consistent, expected but not true.

Every example was either part of what he gets major credit for, or a poor one on your part. You're gonna need better examples if you wanna claim Johnston has had multiple arcs that on an ROH level, are the equivalent of the nWo invasion on the major league level.

And as DX mentioned, we all know Adam Cole will inevitably sign with WWE. This is a nothing story. "Adam Cole's leaving, brother, he's goin' to the big leagues to steer the ship for Paul in the boys!" "Oh cool, will he debut at the next Takeover then dude?" "No, he'll debut in about a year, when his contract expires." "Uh... wait, what?"

That's how this all sounds. "Man to leave promotion in one year when his contract expires". When the fuck else is he going to leave?!

Cole isn't the big story and I may share an incredibly pleasant exchange I had with a good unofficial source because of this thread, if you'd like to be a bit more informed and see how serious this is. I also got asked on another forum to "calm down" so to speak as this topic is causing "some issues for talent with misinformation," whatever exactly that's supposed to imply.

[The Dragon Saga]

Yes, but supersonic, you're in the contingent I spoke of, you'll twist stuff into an image to fit your argument anyways. And also, I read the VOW thread, while I'm not particularly fond of rovert as per he and I's interactions in the past you're both in the wrong on that one, but whatever, as I said and I'll stick to my point, Delirious doesn't do half a bad job as some of you like to imagine, most of you look at the small picture and for some unbeknown reason compare ROH now to its former identity and these rumors are all nonsense. Said it a few times, I'll say it again, get onto me when Moose or Strong actually leave. Cole's not going anywhere for a year and his involvement in this stuff is ridiculous.

[supersonic]

I don't twist anything, I provide observations that happen to annoy those who are in a bubble and can't be reasonable enough to understand that folks may have higher standards than you.

Oh, ROH is doing great metrics. Well woopty fucking do for a consumer. So did Avatar. What aesthetic legacy of any substance did that leave behind?

[JigsawVs.Jason]

If 25 percent of the roster is gone within a relatively short amount of time, I'll say I heard it here first.

I just don't think things are that desperate at the moment. If anything, the trend for ROH over, say, the last 2-3 years is WAY up.

I've gone to three shows in Atlanta in the last couple of years. Great crowds. They had to move into a bigger arena for the third one and still a huge turnout. I hope they're coming back soon.

As for booking, I'll take the bad (or average) with the good. I like ROH's use of "drive-by" talent -- bringing in Stevie Ray or AJ or the Bullet Club guys or Joe or Liger or Colt or whoever they can use on a short-term basis to mix things up and give us fresh matchups and a chance to see some indie "big names" on a kind of rotating basis. I like some of the angles like the Kingdom's formation, making BJ Whitmer (a guy who most people thought had no future just a few short years ago) into the most hated guy in the promotion, Briscoe-Lethal, the nice Roddy run last year, etc., etc.

Sure, there's some clunkers. Sure there's some guys who might have potential who haven't yet been given the right ride to live up to it. That's true in everything -- wrestling, acting, music, sports ... Hell, in life.

But overall, ROH really appeals to me. I've been two two Evolve shows live and there's absolutely no comparison. I can't say I keep up with everything that promotion does, but having experienced it's like the difference between sixth grade and college. I can't see how anyone can equate the two promotions on a booking level.

Great point, insane some are calling EVOLVE to be better, while they at least provide a good product again, it is not even in the same league as ROH in terms of booking, despite some issues.

[187_Joeism]

I enjoy both ROH & EVOLVE, they are not the same at all and that is what make them both good in their own way.

[Fawrules]

I don't twist anything, I provide observations that happen to annoy those who are in a bubble and can't be reasonable enough to understand that folks may have higher standards than you.

Oh, ROH is doing great metrics. Well woopty fucking do for a consumer. So did Avatar. What aesthetic legacy of any substance did that leave behind?

Uhm, while it wasn't my cup of tea, personally, Avatar held/possibly still holds the record for the biggest movie box office in history. Sounds like a fairly substantial legacy to me. Not exactly the best argument to make.

[supersonic]

I don't twist anything, I provide observations that happen to annoy those who are in a bubble and can't be reasonable enough to understand that folks may have higher standards than you.

Oh, ROH is doing great metrics. Well woopty fucking do for a consumer. So did Avatar. What aesthetic legacy of any substance did that leave behind?

Uhm, while it wasn't my cup of tea, personally, Avatar held/possibly still holds the record for the biggest movie box office in history. Sounds like a fairly substantial legacy to me. Not exactly the best argument to make.

That's not the point. Nobody talks about that film anymore as it was a visual gimmick that got usurped by films with superior characters and screenplays. It made no cultural impact whatsoever unless you wanna count Hollywood milking extra dollars out of consumers via 3D showings even if the films aren't made for that presentation.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

Anyone questioning supersonic, I'll have you know, he's shared legit information with myself to more than backup his claim. Yes, Cole isn't even the headline grabber in all of this, but to deny the fact that talent is unhappy is doing yourself a disservice.

[BurningHammer]

There is no denying there are issues with the product currently, do I think it is as bad are some are saying certainly not but it's certainly not something which I would call great. I do think a lot of the issues are very fixable and i don't see why Hunter can't fix them as he shown in the past he can create something that is good enough to bring in fans and keep people interested (but that's just my opinion) considering previous feuds and stories. I will say that not a lot of the problems are down do just booking, Joe Koff is certainly culpable as he hasn't shown enough nouse to realise that there needs to be better production, direction of the internal components that make a wrestling company very good.

I don't think it's really that fair to compare the older ROH with now as they are completely different times in wrestling. At the moment i just don't see the personalities out there on the indies at the level currently that ROH needs to push forward from where it is now, especially at main event level. It can certainly better it's under card that's for sure and hopefully that will build greater main events. Also with how seriously ROH are taking blood and concussions we just aren't going to see the type of heat and energy that was generated in say the feud with Brian and Nigel. That being said we can still have a more adult environment to shows and with the recent Philly and Supercard of Honor nights (night one especially) it certainly seems to be that people had looked and realised that this needed to happen.

The roster is in need of freshening up and personally i'm not astonished at the names being mentioned, both Cole and Roddy have gone past with what ROH can offer them and they probably need to move into a new company. Cole will certainly be ok in the WWE i doubt he will be main event level but he will probably have a good career for sure, Roddy will always have his limitations and whether they can be hidden and not exposed in such a larger, grander scale i don't know but he deserves the chance.

Personally I want a lot more gone from the roster and ROH in general from BJ, Beer City Bruiser, maybe Silas Young, the likes of the quality of Kongo, Joey D should never be on/around a promotion trying to create a very good TV product, surely they can find better talent from their seminars than these guys, especially when you consider the talents that have apparently attended them. I do hope they are bringing in another title for the male part of the roster as it will enable younger members of the roster to have something to shoot for and allow them to build there status and identity in the company. It also could give others a much needed fresh start or presence in the company. Finally near my ultimate pet peeve for the product really, just remove Corino from commentary or at least be harder on both him and Kevin Kelly on what they have to deliver, because if i hear anymore about baseball, wrestling number 3 or Kevin Kelly saying "ooooh" like some 10 year old girl i'm going to scream. If we aren't going to have hype videos during shows and the focus is on the story being told through commentary or ring work then focus on that stop trying to be chummy and funny because it just isn't needed, be grown ups for goodness sake.

Other areas I would say to help improve the product are really quite easy, having a website that is really far more detailed/professional and fan involved would help immensely and i'm sure there would be a young fan out there willing to create one for a good price. Having write ups that are accurate to history and without spelling mistakes again would just add that little bit of professionalism that is missing. Having ring curtains that actually fit around the ring and don't look like they have just been cut and put together before the show would help immensely. Having more promotional videos not just for PPV's but for your IPPV's and bigger god events would be such a huge plus and more promo time like a videowire would be great and again give far more time for personalities to really be shown.

All of these issues aren't hard to fix it all can be with people being stronger and harder on themselves and the direction that this product should take.

[Saintpat]

Oh a human level, I guess I wish for everyone to be "happy."

But as far as my enjoyment of the product, I really don't care who is and isn't "happy" in the locker room. Some people are never happy. Some people still produce very well when they're unhappy. I can be entertained by an actor or athlete or wrestler who may or may not be pleased with their lot in life. A sports team with a locker room full of issues can still be a championship team -- sometimes the friction actually works as part of the winning chemistry.

If there are people who don't like their booking, I hope it motivates them to take it to the booker(s) to work out something better. If they can make more money on the free market -- Moose is probably ready for that step -- then by all means they need to go get it. For now and the foreseeable future, ROH is going to be a promotion where guys can elevate themselves to a point where they can move to the next level financially. A select few are going to get bigger deals to stay, but ROH isn't going to be able to compete across the board for every talent to keep them.

I love Roddy as Mr. ROH, but I don't know that his ceiling is any higher on the free market. Maybe NJ or WWE can take him and make him a big deal, but mostly he's just an exceptionally good hand who is exceptionally conditioned, not some can't-miss prospect for the big leagues. But by all means, if he wants to take his shot, go do it ... If it doesn't work out, hope he doesn't burn any bridges. Same for Cole, who would seem to have a higher upside with potential to make it.

There's still plenty of good talent out there. Some roster turnover from time to time is good -- bring in new faces and new personalities with fresh ideas and make some fresh matchups.

But I'll remain skeptical about the idea that fully 25 percent of the roster is ready to revolt and riot on the streets -- OK, I exaggerate ... I remain skeptical that 25 percent of the roster will be leaving soon. We shall see.

[The Dragon Saga]

Anyone questioning supersonic, I'll have you know, he's shared legit information with myself to more than backup his claim. Yes, Cole isn't even the headline grabber in all of this, but to deny the fact that talent is unhappy is doing yourself a disservice.

But WHAT are we supposed to be questioning? This is going around in circles. That one or two guys might be unhappy? Tough shit, they signed contracts, their stuck there. If Moose and Strong are the only two who will be leaving soon, we'll see in a couple months, nobody needs "insider" info or "scoops", time will answer this. Cole isn't leaving. Lethal isn't leaving. No movement for reDRagon, ACH, Daniels, Kazarian, The Bucks - at worst ROH loses Roddy whose been in the company for 12 years and has done everything, from a "publicity" standpoint, ROH loses Moose. Moose isn't replaceable as a story or as a figure due to his history, but as a talent his spot could be filled.

This SAME STORY comes out at least once a year in some form, "so and so is gonna leave ROH, going to NXT to help Paul and the boys", how is this in any way different to those? That's right, it's not. Same shit, different year.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

To date, both proved to creatively be one trick ponies. Bischoff with the nWo, Johnston with the Briscoe vs. Lethal build.

Plus with the Briscoe/Cole feud.

Plus the story itself of Michael Elgin capturing the ROH World title.

Plus Jay Briscoe's entire title reign and his storyline that made him legit seem crazy.

Plus reDRagon's entire run, The New Streak, Jay Lethal's heel turn and subsequent rise to actual stardom and on and on and on.

Once again, an example of Delirious getting either too much flack for minimal things hes done or not enough credit for the numerous good things he has good. But as I mentioned earlier, there is a contingent of people on this board who do this, regularly, day in and day out without hesitation. It's consistent, expected but not true.

And as DX mentioned, we all know Adam Cole will inevitably sign with WWE. This is a nothing story. "Adam Cole's leaving, brother, he's goin' to the big leagues to steer the ship for Paul in the boys!" "Oh cool, will he debut at the next Takeover then dude?" "No, he'll debut in about a year, when his contract expires." "Uh... wait, what?"

That's how this all sounds. "Man to leave promotion in one year when his contract expires". When the fuck else is he going to leave?!

Okay, so here's some of the shitty ideas and poorly executed bookings from Delirious:

- ACH/Sydal (Best of 5)- What the fuck was this even for? It was random and in the end, what did it do for either guy? ACH still is a flippity guy who can't tell a story and Sydal is faring way better in NJPW.

War Machine- Aren't over as tag champs. Their fate was sealed when they couldn't get over against ANX.

Motor City Machine Guns- This act will get old quicker than most of you realize. After their feud with the Addiction is over, what are you going to do with them? One of the roster's best promo guys, Alex Shelley, isn't given the mic for shit. The opportunity to have these two beat the shit out of each other first would've at least been something new for these guys.

Corino/Whitmer- A storyline that makes sense, but comes at the expense of more worthy talent. Yeah, that's gotta feel good for guys busting their ass.

Dijak- A complete mess. Fired for losing a match, not taking the envelope from Nana which everyone could see but Martini. Terrible on the mic, nowhere even close to being ready for the spot he's in.

Briscoe/Page- We're still lamenting on this forum that this feud didn't go longer. That's how great a mid-card feud could've been between these two. Ended before it started.

Kyle O'Reilly- A disaster of epic proportions all because of booking. His strength is his talent in the ring, but an inconsistent win-loss record has done current damage to his title shot prospects in the eyes of the fans.

This is shit I pulled from the top of my head. I can add more, but it certainly provides the beginning of a counter-balance to your justifications.

[supersonic]

Roddy didn't give notice by the way.

His situation is exactly as described. His deal is up in a few months and he'll likely go wherever the best offer in his mind comes from. Just like last year at the same time.

There is some frustration with Hunter as booker because he's sometimes difficult to get in touch with, and sometimes he changes plans (nothing like WWE which does it weekly) but when he does, if a guy getting a title doesn't, of course he's going to be mad. There was an issue with people on the low end of the card needing take after take on doing promos and high card guys who could nail it on the first try were waiting for them to not get it right.

There is the obvious second guessing of how often they use the New Japan guys. I think it's too much, especially because they come across as the bigger stars. But the argument is that the New Japan connection has led to this being the biggest year by far in company history, even with losing AJ & Nakamura, as gates and merch are both usually up even on shows without the New Japan guys right now. I saw Cornette do that in SMW and while it wasn't the reason for its decline, I warned him as soon as he did it and it was a factor in the sense the crowds in his biggest markets stopped coming unless WWE guys were on the show, whereas before when there were no WWE guys, his guys alone were enough to draw.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

Wow. So some of the same shit that we've been talking about is closer to reality than some posters here willing to admit.

[WHG]

What I love about this is how obvious it is that Stokely is the source.

He's a nobody & has never been under contract, yet his name is lumped in the story with actual contracted stars...and there is specific info that they were pissed at him for working Evolve and that he's done after next weekend. Sounds like a guy with an axe to grind trying to turn probably very typical venting among coworkers into a big story. I mean, could Moose possibly be unhappy? He's been given a big role for two years, gotten a chance to improve and been put in a position to get offers from multiple companies. He very may well leave, but why the fuck would he be frustrated with ROH?

Roddy leaving in 4 months and Cole in 11 months because they don't like their booking seems like a very odd story. Those two plus one guy who is happy, but probably leaving for better opportunities and a non-factor manager that isn't even signed is an outright bizarre attempt at a story.

Are Cole and Strong more unhappy than Elgin was in 2014 and Ciampa obviously was for most of 2014/2015 before he left? Promotions will ALWAYS have unhappy talent and guys will always leave.

[Thelone]

- ACH/Sydal (Best of 5)- What the fuck was this even for? It was random and in the end, what did it do for either guy? ACH still is a flippity guy who can't tell a story and Sydal is faring way better in NJPW.

There is actually a story here, but you have to put the pieces together yourself because they're barely telling the story. A casual viewer isn't going to look up old matches on Cagematch.

War Machine- Aren't over as tag champs. Their fate was sealed when they couldn't get over against ANX.

The build-up they got was "They won some matches (mostly against nameless jobbers) and now they're gonna face the champions". FEEL THE HEAT !!!

Motor City Machine Guns- This act will get old quicker than most of you realize. After their feud with the Addiction is over, what are you going to do with them? One of the roster's best promo guys, Alex Shelley, isn't given the mic for shit. The opportunity to have these two beat the shit out of each other first would've at least been something new for these guys.

Again one of the main reasons I don't give a shit about those old teams and so many veterans coming back. Couldn't you put Shelley (and Daniels for that matter) with a young guy so he can get an actual fucking rub ? Oh no, we must get this endless KRD/MCMG feud instead because """dream""" matches or whatever.

Corino/Whitmer- A storyline that makes sense, but comes at the expense of more worthy talent. Yeah, that's gotta feel good for guys busting their ass.

Briscoe/Page- We're still lamenting on this forum that this feud didn't go longer. That's how great a mid-card feud could've been between these two. Ended before it started.

The Briscoe match was the beginning of the end for Page's push. I guess they didn't want to beat Jay so quickly after the loss to Lethal, but him beating Page like he was a nobody obviously didn't help Page in the slightest. Gotta give that rub to #TheMikeMan for a meaningless match at the Tokyo Dome because fuck common sense.

Dijak- A complete mess. Fired for losing a match, not taking the envelope from Nana which everyone could see but Martini. Terrible on the mic, nowhere even close to being ready for the spot he's in.

Nana is useless and has been for years, Dijak is just some bland tall dude. Shocking this doesn't work.

Kyle O'Reilly- A disaster of epic proportions all because of booking. His strength is his talent in the ring, but an inconsistent win-loss record has done current damage to his title shot prospects in the eyes of the fans.

Yeah, I'm not gonna repeat what I said a billion times already.

[trufreedom]

I don't twist anything, I provide observations that happen to annoy those who are in a bubble and can't be reasonable enough to understand that folks may have higher standards than you.

Oh, ROH is doing great metrics. Well woopty fucking do for a consumer. So did Avatar. What aesthetic legacy of any substance did that leave behind?

Uhm, while it wasn't my cup of tea, personally, Avatar held/possibly still holds the record for the biggest movie box office in history. Sounds like a fairly substantial legacy to me. Not exactly the best argument to make.

This is the stupidest thing said on these boards since that guy called Burnside a nigger.

Sorry, Fawrules, there goes the point. You fuckin' missed it.

[Big Red Machine]

Delirious' flaw is not that he is a one-trick pony. He does seem to go back to the same wells decently often (someone has some sort of streak, someone is angry and crazy, "what is going through Adam Cole's mind?", dudes in red masks), but calling him a one-trick pony is way too harsh. Delirious' biggest flaws as a booker is a general inability to communicate stories to the audience and using dirty finishes without following up on them in any way.

He also isn't very good at fitting the pieces of the puzzle together to make it feel like the finishes/results of all of the matches matter, which is something that Gabe excels at... and while we're on the subject of Gabe... are there really people out there who think that ROH is currently better booked than EVOLVE is?