Official Global Wars/War Of The Worlds 2016 Super Thread

[DBSommer]

i hope roh dont waste castle,young,page and ach the way they did it with ciampa.

How do you waste a mid-carder by keeping him in the mid-card? He wasn't 'the guy' with any promotion even after he left ROH. Sure he flirted with the occasional main event, but there was nothing about him that screamed he was the kind of guy that could carry ROH. He had an OK character, but you can only go so far with the 'half-crazed madman thing'. I never felt like he carried anyone a step beyond their normal matches, and his best stuff was only with the best guys (excepting the tag match he and Hansen had with Bennett and Taven).

He's like the ultimate journeyman wrestler who popped up in a lot of places, but was never the guy to carry where he was, and no one was negatively affected when he left as in anyone went 'Oh no. Who will take Ciampas place?" Mind you, you can say that about a lot of guys, but this run with Gargano (who I would take over him every day of the week) is the closest thing he's had to a good run anywhere outside of ROH.

[DBSommer]

Haven't been disappointed one time with PWG. And I'll watch those DVDs a few times over before sitting through a new ROH event.
The whole reason cards get announced is so fans can get excited for the event about to take place. It's called anticipation. Good example: Sami Callihan vs Trevor Lee at Lemmy. Already sounds awesome. Two interesting wrestlers I'm starting to explore, never seen them wrestle each other and PWG has never failed to entertain me. When that match appeared on the preview, I was stoked. Couldn't wait to see it. Same thing with Cage vs Dickinson. Or Mike Bailey vs Evil Uno at Bowie. At this point, I want to see combinations of talent that can show me something new

When you only have 10-12 shows a year, with one storyline of the Young Bucks and their buddies being dicks, and an open door policy where there's no restrictions on hiring random guys from everywhere once or twice (or what you can do with them if you do), it's kind of easy to avoid repeats. When you have more than 3 times that and actual contracted talent and some semblance of storylines that have to run alongside your weekly TV show which require timing with air dates, and which should be used to build up your big shows, you're suddenly juggling a bunch of balls in the air rather than one. And when you have only one ball it isn't actually juggling: it's just tossing. And that is what PWG is. It has all the complexity of tossing a ball up in the air and catching it.

I could book PWG dead drunk and with a concussion and you'd never be able to tell the difference between my card and theirs. It's that easy. ROH, I'd have to be sober and clear headed and put some work into it. I could still do it, but the standards between one and the other are not nearly the same.

[DBSommer]

I think guys sign ROH contracts try to get to the WWE, not NJPW. Signing a contract with ROH is an affirmation that you're one step closer to Vince, not Gedo. With SBG locking guys up to contracts, their value may increase as opposed to indy guys with none. Don't you think The Young Bucks will use that to their advantage? Cole when his time is up?

I suspect guys like the better pay and regular income that comes with said contract (one of the reasons back when people would sign with TNA, at least when they had more money than what's in Dixie's purse at the moment, was for that). Likewise I thought NJPW pays better than most indie promotions, though, even if you're not a regular gaijin talent. If so you'd still want the access to the higher paying jobs, and higher profile, that connection would give you access to as well.

But I also think you're right in that it would help in leverage for a deal with WWE as well, but unless WWE *really* wants you (Like AJ Styles), they have enough of a monopoly they can say, 'Look, you want a shot to get in, you take what we're offering even if it's less than what you're making now,' and most guys are going to crack. Worst case scenario is they do a Sami and ask to be released if they stay in NXT limbo for too long.

As to the whole, "There are too many NJPW random guys matches on shows". It's a bit of a double edged sword, but I'll take the chance to see guys wrestle in the US I otherwise would not see, in matches (as others have pointed out) that haven't happened yet, over the randomness of it. For me the pros outweigh the cons. Just having Ishimori and Ricky Marvin coming in just wasn't the same thing.

[STITCHES]

When you only have 10-12 shows a year, with one storyline of the Young Bucks and their buddies being dicks, and an open door policy where there's no restrictions on hiring random guys from everywhere once or twice (or what you can do with them if you do), it's kind of easy to avoid repeats. When you have more than 3 times that and actual contracted talent and some semblance of storylines that have to run alongside your weekly TV show which require timing with air dates, and which should be used to build up your big shows, you're suddenly juggling a bunch of balls in the air rather than one. And when you have only one ball it isn't actually juggling: it's just tossing. And that is what PWG is. It has all the complexity of tossing a ball up in the air and catching it.

I could book PWG dead drunk and with a concussion and you'd never be able to tell the difference between my card and theirs. It's that easy. ROH, I'd have to be sober and clear headed and put some work into it. I could still do it, but the standards between one and the other are not nearly the same.

Oh really? You should do it then. Stop wasting your time here squabbling with curmudgeonly old men like me and whip up an awesome solution to this backwash booking problem in ROH.

But on a serious note, I don't really like story lines anymore. Sort of lost interest when I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the American Dream. They're okay sometimes, but to me they just get in the way of what I'm ultimately looking for (again): interesting combinations of talent that will show me something I haven't already seen before. That's really all I want sometimes. The Young Bucks being dicks is a good running joke. It's kind of like the Bottle Kids in Trailer Park Boys. Irreverent, amusing, violent and crass. Same dudes in ROH seem neutered. I don't need to watch programming that reeks of WCW Saturday Night's daytime TV banality. I just don't buy Steve Corino saying "cheese and crackers" when he should be saying "Jesus Christ!" in response to a high spot. Not saying ROH needs to be PWG. They don't. But if they want to keep someone like me entertained, it won't happen this way. Guess I'm not their target audience and that's fine. Still, though, I reserve the right to look at a card and go, "Eh, seen it. No thanks." Don't really see why that's a problem for you. Just one more jaded old dude you don't have to sit next to at Cole vs O'Reilly 17.

[dhads7161]

One of the biggest problems I think ROH began having sometime last year is that storylines have been advancing more on the house shows rather than TV. TV doesn't seem to have a direction now, seems to be the house shows that have direction.

[DBSommer]

Oh really? You should do it then. Stop wasting your time here squabbling with curmudgeonly old men like me and whip up an awesome solution to this backwash booking problem in ROH.

But on a serious note, I don't really like story lines anymore.

Well that's sort of a standard for nearly all of wrestling forever. Even really rinky dink promotions like IWC out of Pittsburgh do it. Most people like something like a backstory to a match and a direction to go in. If they didn't then most promotions wouldn't bother doing it as it is a hassle. It would be all names out of a hat. It would get stale for most people pretty fast as that's all you got. Even PWG realizes this, which is why they've never tried to be bigger than they are. The formula breaks down fast. Which is also why there's only one PWG. There's only so much room for the niche overall.

What you don't like is actually necessary.

Sort of lost interest when I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the American Dream. They're okay sometimes, but to me they just get in the way of what I'm ultimately looking for (again): interesting combinations of talent that will show me something I haven't already seen before. That's really all I want sometimes. The Young Bucks being dicks is a good running joke. It's kind of like the Bottle Kids in Trailer Park Boys. Irreverent, amusing, violent and crass.

I find this phrase amusing because

Same dudes in ROH seem neutered. I don't need to watch programming that reeks of WCW Saturday Night's daytime TV banality.

that whole schtick, which has been going on for 4 plus years, is pretty much the definition of banality by now. It's like a running gag that consists entirely of one joke which died a long time ago. If it still works for you, that's fine. But you're complaining about one company doing something while lauding another for doing it even more and far worse.

I just don't buy Steve Corino saying "cheese and crackers" when he should be saying "Jesus Christ!" in response to a high spot. Not saying ROH needs to be PWG.

Even PWG can't be more PWG. Hence why there is only one that doesn't do more than it does, and everyone isn't trying to ape it despite it's success.

They don't. But if they want to keep someone like me entertained, it won't happen this way. Guess I'm not their target audience and that's fine. Still, though, I reserve the right to look at a card and go, "Eh, seen it. No thanks." Don't really see why that's a problem for you. .

Actually if it had been something as brief as that, there wouldn't really be anything to discuss as it's just a direct comment that it's on point. But it was a wee bit more than that which left be scratching my head wrapping itself around your mindset. With things like:

The whole reason cards get announced is so fans can get excited for the event about to take place. It's called anticipation. Good example: Sami Callihan vs Trevor Lee at Lemmy. Already sounds awesome

It's the idea that there is some antcipation for this match since

What's the backstory?: There isn't any

Where will things go after the match?: Nowhere. It's a standard PWG one and done. By the time the next card rolls around, it'll be like it never happened.

You can't even call it a 'dream match' since no one ever said, 'That Trevor Lee is great, sure would like it if WWE released Sami so those two can have a match It would be like a dream come true.' It's at best a 'first time match' which can be used exactly once... ever. Because then it's no longer a first time match.

The only anticipation to this is projected on to it. PWG has done nothing to build anticipation for it. Even if ROH is doing a piss poor job of building anticipation toward it, they are trying. But you're critcizing them for something they are trying to do, then lauding someone for doing something that aren't even half assing. Even Austin Aries literally drawing names out a hat had more effort to it than PWG doing the same thing metaphorically.

I guess we could use your way. And I can see a point. I mean, sure, you can do the feud thing I suppose, but then you end up with stuff like Generico and Steen fighting all over the place for a year, and what did that ever do? Where was the freshness in that? Next thing you'll know people will be talking about guys like Shawn and Bret, Dusty and Tully, or even Streamboat and Flair like we didn't see that all over the place forever. Where is the anticipation in that?

[Big Red Machine]

One of the biggest problems I think ROH began having sometime last year is that storylines have been advancing more on the house shows rather than TV. TV doesn't seem to have a direction now, seems to be the house shows that have direction.

If you know of any storyline developments that have happened at house shows that I don't know about (and I've seen all of them aside from the Indy and Duluth shows) please point them out to me.

[dhads7161]

One of the biggest problems I think ROH began having sometime last year is that storylines have been advancing more on the house shows rather than TV. TV doesn't seem to have a direction now, seems to be the house shows that have direction.

If you know of any storyline developments that have happened at house shows that I don't know about (and I've seen all of them aside from the Indy and Duluth shows) please point them out to me.

Feuds have been blown off or started on house shows a bunch lately. O'Reilly vs. Cole and Strong vs. Fish, though they were blown off on a big weekend, they were still blown off on shows that were only house shows instead of on TV where more people are prone to watching. Same with Page vs. Whitmer, blown off on a house show. Cabana vs. Lethal, only build is on the same house show weekend as O'Reilly vs. Cole and Fish vs. Strong were. Dijak vs. Diesel which is a feud I can actually get behind if it's handled as a brawler type of feud is only being built on house shows. I said before that TV doesn't seem to have direction, I take that back. TV's direction now is to showcase the NJPW relationship, screw the ROH product and building stars, feuds, and matches when there's NJPW to promote! While this NJPW relationship is cool for the Global Wars/War of the Worlds shows it is beginning to be a handicap for the ROH roster creatively and a crutch for Delirious to book lazily, not to mention it's beginning to lose some of it's novelty due to the overuse of it. After next week time to cool down on it, bring NJPW guys in here and there, like four max when they do when it's not for GW/WOTW. Time to take a step back and build the roster up again so the NJPW guys will have guys who seem somewhat like equals when they come over.

[TYFDK]

Jonathan Gresham vs. Cedric Alexander ended in Philly.

[STITCHES]

Well that's sort of a standard for nearly all of wrestling forever. Even really rinky dink promotions like IWC out of Pittsburgh do it. Most people like something like a backstory to a match and a direction to go in. If they didn't then most promotions wouldn't bother doing it as it is a hassle. It would be all names out of a hat. It would get stale for most people pretty fast as that's all you got. Even PWG realizes this, which is why they've never tried to be bigger than they are. The formula breaks down fast. Which is also why there's only one PWG. There's only so much room for the niche overall.

What you don't like is actually necessary.

that whole schtick, which has been going on for 4 plus years, is pretty much the definition of banality by now. It's like a running gag that consists entirely of one joke which died a long time ago. If it still works for you, that's fine. But you're complaining about one company doing something while lauding another for doing it even more and far worse.

Even PWG can't be more PWG. Hence why there is only one that doesn't do more than it does, and everyone isn't trying to ape it despite it's success.

Actually if it had been something as brief as that, there wouldn't really be anything to discuss as it's just a direct comment that it's on point. But it was a wee bit more than that which left be scratching my head wrapping itself around your mindset. With things like:

It's the idea that there is some antcipation for this match since

What's the backstory?: There isn't any

Where will things go after the match?: Nowhere. It's a standard PWG one and done. By the time the next card rolls around, it'll be like it never happened.

You can't even call it a 'dream match' since no one ever said, 'That Trevor Lee is great, sure would like it if WWE released Sami so those two can have a match It would be like a dream come true.' It's at best a 'first time match' which can be used exactly once... ever. Because then it's no longer a first time match.

The only anticipation to this is projected on to it. PWG has done nothing to build anticipation for it. Even if ROH is doing a piss poor job of building anticipation toward it, they are trying. But you're critcizing them for something they are trying to do, then lauding someone for doing something that aren't even half assing. Even Austin Aries literally drawing names out a hat had more effort to it than PWG doing the same thing metaphorically.

I guess we could use your way. And I can see a point. I mean, sure, you can do the feud thing I suppose, but then you end up with stuff like Generico and Steen fighting all over the place for a year, and what did that ever do? Where was the freshness in that? Next thing you'll know people will be talking about guys like Shawn and Bret, Dusty and Tully, or even Streamboat and Flair like we didn't see that all over the place forever. Where is the anticipation in that?

Okay, well, I can summarize by saying I don't have a problem with ROH doing what they wanna do. It's just not going to hold my interest all the time. I wouldn't really call that complaining. It's not like I tune in every week to watch ROH TV, return to this forum with a scathing review of everything I didn't like and then say, "I wish ROH didn't suck so much." Other people do that here pretty often. I'm sure you've read that stuff. All I'm saying is that a particular card didn't interest me because I've either already seen those matches before or what was new to me didn't entice me enough to fork out money. I would just rather see something odd, like Zac Sabre Jr vs Pentagon Jr at BOLA 2015. That's weird and different to me, so I'm going to be drawn to that instead. That's pretty much literally it.
In regards to what you said about PWG vs ROH, I don't really have time to go back and respond to each individual statement, so again, I'll attempt to summarize: PWG appeals to me sort of the same way ECW used to back in the 90's. I didn't have access to ECW Hardcore TV back then because it just simply did not air out here. At all. So, all I had were the PPVs. Same as PWG now. I'm not trying to substitute ROH with PWG. I just like what they do better. That's all. With ECW, I just knew what the next card was from looking it up on the website and that it was happening on a particular date. The anticipation came from having to stomach stupid things Vince or Bischoff would do during the Monday Night Wars and looking forward to RVD, Sabu, New Jack, Balls, Axl, Taz and the like. Even then, sometimes the PPV would begin with Paul Heyman saying, "Hey, guess what? Some of our guys are injured so we're changing the card." And to me, that never mattered. The blood, guts and mayhem (no matter what variety) was awesome because of how ECW pulled it off, not because it resembled an anatomically correct storyline or approach to how wrestling "should be" done. Maybe I'm just not your typical wrestling fan. I don't know. ROH can be the second coming of WCW for all I care. That's fine. Sometimes it works for me (i.e. Ishii defeating Strong for the TV title was interesting angle on things), but the old shit was better.
Maybe another way I could put this is ROH to me is like Metallica. They put out some incredible material during the first half of their existence (Kill 'em All through Justice). Once it got to the Black album, you could tell the band had changed permanently. Whether or not you wanted to hear what they were doing depended on your taste as the listener. But Metallica had made up their minds that something else was more important than trying to capture lightning in a bottle again. Okay, fair enough. But I'm probably not going to like it as much as the old stuff or even bother listening to it at all. I want something else. So, instead of expecting that from Metallica, I'm going to go elsewhere for the same thrill, which means I'm probably checking out bands that last 3-5 years and only put out a couple records ever. Same thing.

[Big Red Machine]

One of the biggest problems I think ROH began having sometime last year is that storylines have been advancing more on the house shows rather than TV. TV doesn't seem to have a direction now, seems to be the house shows that have direction.

If you know of any storyline developments that have happened at house shows that I don't know about (and I've seen all of them aside from the Indy and Duluth shows) please point them out to me.

Feuds have been blown off or started on house shows a bunch lately. O'Reilly vs. Cole and Strong vs. Fish, though they were blown off on a big weekend, they were still blown off on shows that were only house shows instead of on TV where more people are prone to watching. Same with Page vs. Whitmer, blown off on a house show. Cabana vs. Lethal, only build is on the same house show weekend as O'Reilly vs. Cole and Fish vs. Strong were. Dijak vs. Diesel which is a feud I can actually get behind if it's handled as a brawler type of feud is only being built on house shows. I said before that TV doesn't seem to have direction, I take that back. TV's direction now is to showcase the NJPW relationship, screw the ROH product and building stars, feuds, and matches when there's NJPW to promote! While this NJPW relationship is cool for the Global Wars/War of the Worlds shows it is beginning to be a handicap for the ROH roster creatively and a crutch for Delirious to book lazily, not to mention it's beginning to lose some of it's novelty due to the overuse of it. After next week time to cool down on it, bring NJPW guys in here and there, like four max when they do when it's not for GW/WOTW. Time to take a step back and build the roster up again so the NJPW guys will have guys who seem somewhat like equals when they come over.

That's just SCOH. It's a big show which they have been plugging on the TV. That doesn't count. The only thing you mentioned that wasn't at SCOH was the Page vs. Whitmer match, and we have no evidence that that was the blow-off (and if it was, this feud was so short that there was no point to splitting them up). Also, considering the complete and total lack of anything taped for TV right now, I imagine you'll be seeing some of the SCOH matches on TV soon enough.

[Big Red Machine]

Jonathan Gresham vs. Cedric Alexander ended in Philly.

No it didn't. The finish of that match was Page pinning Cedric. The Gresham vs. Alexander feud just... stopped.

[Thelone]

Is Alexander even on the roster at this point ? They barely used him this year and doesn't seem to be booked anywhere in the near future.

[Burnside]

Is Alexander even on the roster at this point ? They barely used him this year and doesn't seem to be booked anywhere in the near future.

Rumored to be in WWE's cruiserweight tournament. No idea where I heard that though. But if true then he likely has no ROH contract.

[Big Red Machine]

Gresham hasn't been used since then, either.

[monster mafia]

by the time of mania weekend alexander was in the uk i think ...he still promote roh on his twitter.

gresham appears on tv, and shows and later ..nothing...that sucks

[Thelone]

Gresham hasn't been used since then, either.

Which is more odd to me since Gresham is pretty much bringing Jordynne Grace everywhere he goes these days. The writing was on the wall for quite some time for Alexander so him just fading out into nothingness doesn't shock me in the slightest.

[Northwoods_Nightmare]

Sort of lost interest when I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the American Dream.

But Dusty is so much cooler than Santa...

[monster mafia]

PWTorch has learned that international star Will Ospreay has signed with New Japan Pro Wrestling.

Ospreay was working on a handshake agreement when he made his debut at the Invasion Attack PPV on April 10.

After his impressive title match against IWGP Jr. Hvt. champion KUSHIDA, New Japan officials presented Ospreay with a formal contract offer. Ospreay has since agreed to a deal.

Will in roh and in this tour could be an amazing thing.

[DXvsNWO1994]

Main Event for War Of The Worlds 2016: Night 1 in Dearborn...

Spoiler: show

Dave Meltzer reported in The Wrestling Observer that the Main Event of the 5/9 show in Dearborn, Michigan will be reDRagon vs. Jay Lethal & Tetsuya Naito.