Too Much emphasis on the NJPW relationship

[JTCole]

So Tanahashi's back finally went out after carrying New Japan for the last 10 years after Inoki nearly ruined it?

[jordidebaas]

Thinking you're not going to draw more with a better product is what I call not thinking

Of course you are going to draw more, but not to the level you draw when New Japan guys are in town. You will draw a few more people for sure but i don´t think you will get a lot more people because right now with a worse product you are still getting good crowds.

How is the fact that they're getting good crowds with a worse product a reason they won't get crowds a lot bigger if the product is good? It's really simple logic:
Bad product, not so good crowds -> good product okay crowds
Bad product, okay crowds -> good product good crowds
Bad product, good crowds -> good product great crowds
(please don't use the argument that 'the product isn't bad right now', the words bad and good are completely interchangeable for any other words where the second means 'any random degree on any random scale better than word no. 1)

People are attracted by buzz. As of right now, the NJPW joint shows (still) have (some) buzz. That's why people come. There's matches on the card that the want to see. But you can create the exact same thing by building good feuds, by making people want to see that match between two guys, who might not even be that great wrestlers, but you've build up anticipation, people want to see the good guy finally beat the bad guy, or finally see him win that title he has been chasing for so long, or just get that little bit of revenge. You can't keep drawing people to the arena with dream matches, because after a while, all the dream matches will have happened, and there's nothing left for people to see. It's what's happening with the ROH vs. NJPW shows too. The first time, people on this board flew all the way from fucking Europe to the states to see the show. I don't remember anyone doing that for the second set of shows, or the third one. It's because the novelty had worn off, and every time it's being done again, it loses a bit of it's drawing power, until you reach the point where I think 2 out of the last set of 4 shows didn't even sell out anymore, and if you're going to keep building this relationship on dream matches, that trend will only continue, because almost all the true dream matches have been done already, and eventually you will reach a point where you definitely would have been drawing more with just a simple little feud, let alone a product that's well-build in it's entirety

[Big Red Machine]

Secondly, KUSHIDA has sort of taken over the role Jushin Liger played for NJPW over the years and it's great to see. KUSHIDA can go to any promotion, put over their junior heavyweights, draw **** star matches out of them, and bring worldwide prestige to the IWGP Jr Championship. More KUSHIDA is a good thing. He doesn't need to be "special". Just my two cents.

This.

[Wilson]

KUSHIDA’s availability to losses makes him perhaps more valuable than if contrary. He can potentially be used in stories that have give-and-take.

Since he is charismatic, an exciting worker, and can take losses, he would be among my first choices to be a special attraction outside talent. If they had been more judicious with using him, he might have had a KENTA-like run in ROH; at least I think he would’ve been capable of holding his own end.

[187_Joeism]

This board has 20 people tops, I'm sure people still fly in to see the shows.

New Japan relationship is the reaso ROH is having their best year money wise, the product is not great right now i agree never said that it were. But people going to the shows don't care if New Japan guys are going over ROH guys and are not going to care more for the ROH guys if they go over the New Japan guys because winning or losing the New Japan guys are bigger because New Japan is a bigger company, that's just stupid thinking.

ROH will never have the same buzz that New Japan, PWG, EVOLVE or NXT has, they should focus on improve their booking but even doing that they are not going to get a lot more fans than they have right now.

[Brada]

I fly into see shows all the time. It is cool to see the NJPW guys for sure. They should loosen the booking up a bit and put each other over...just my two cents.

KUSHIDA is a star. Completely agree with the above post.

[Big Red Machine]

My personal dislike for Mr. Yano's in-ring performances aside, I think him coming over for a freakin' PPV weekend really shows how much ROH seems to be relying on New Japan guys to draw. Everyone else ROH has brought over has been at least some moderate level of star in Japan (I'll admit that I'm applying the term loosely for Gedo, but there was a time when he was seen as a big deal). There are people out there who would want to pay to see Okada, Nakamura Tanahashi, Naito, Ishii, Shibata, Omega, KUSHIDA... and even Anderson, Goto, and Liger (Gallows I guess is just a package with Anderson, but at least he was a champion and he's American so it's not like they're paying to fly him over from Japan).
Yano... is a total loser. He's a comedy jobber. That's it. No one is going to pay to see him and there is no reason any time should be wasted with him on an ROH PPV or TV taping. If Delirious thinks that "New Japan Star Toru Yano" is going to in any way be an asset to an ROH PPV, I think that shows how misguided his mindset is.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

Maybe the Yano deal is some backstage exchange between Gedo and Delirious. You get our comedy jobber (Cheeseburger) and you get ours (Yano). Otherwise this makes no sense and we're one step from fucking Captain New Japan.

[monster mafia]

he is not a loser:

New Japan Pro Wrestling

IWGP Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Togi Makabe (1) and Takashi Iizuka (1)[3]

NEVER Openweight 6-Man Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Jay Briscoe and Mark Briscoe[99]

Pro Wrestling Illustrated
PWI ranked him #139 of the best 500 singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2011

Pro Wrestling Noah
GHC Tag Team Championship (2 times, current) – with Takashi Iizuka (1)[55] and Naomichi Marufuji (1, current)

Global Tag League (2016) – with Naomichi Marufuji
Tokyo Sports

Best Bout Award (2011) with Takashi Iizuka vs. Keiji Mutoh and Kenta Kobashi, All Together, August 27
Best Tag Team Award (2007) with Togi Makabe

[Big Red Machine]

Maybe the Yano deal is some backstage exchange between Gedo and Delirious. You get our comedy jobber (Cheeseburger) and you get ours (Yano). Otherwise this makes no sense and we're one step from fucking Captain New Japan.

I'd rather have Captain New Japan than Yano. At least the Captain doesn't do the same exact series of spots in every singe match.

[Big Red Machine]

he is not a loser:

New Japan Pro Wrestling

IWGP Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Togi Makabe (1) and Takashi Iizuka (1)[3]

NEVER Openweight 6-Man Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Jay Briscoe and Mark Briscoe[99]

Pro Wrestling Illustrated
PWI ranked him #139 of the best 500 singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2011

Pro Wrestling Noah
GHC Tag Team Championship (2 times, current) – with Takashi Iizuka (1)[55] and Naomichi Marufuji (1, current)

Global Tag League (2016) – with Naomichi Marufuji
Tokyo Sports

Best Bout Award (2011) with Takashi Iizuka vs. Keiji Mutoh and Kenta Kobashi, All Together, August 27
Best Tag Team Award (2007) with Togi Makabe

Right. and R-Truth isn't a loser, either:
CyberSpace Wrestling Federation

CSWF Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[139]

Memphis Championship Wrestling

MCW Southern Heavyweight Championship (2 times)[140]

NWA Wildside

NWA Wildside Television Championship (1 time)[141]

Pro Wrestling Illustrated

Tag Team of the Year (2012) with Kofi Kingston
PWI ranked him #18 of the 500 best singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2004[142]

Total Nonstop Action Wrestling

NWA World Heavyweight Championship (2 times)[143]
NWA World Tag Team Championship (2 times)1 – with B.G. James and Konnan[144]
TNA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Adam Jones[145]

World Wrestling Federation / World Wrestling Entertainment / WWE

WWF Hardcore Championship (2 times)[12]
WWE United States Championship (1 time)[146]
WWE Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Kofi Kingston[68]
Bragging Rights Trophy (2009) – with Team Smackdown (Chris Jericho, Kane, Matt Hardy, Finlay, and The Hart Dynasty (David Hart Smith and Tyson Kidd))



The point you are missing is that for the past few years (at least in the four years since I've been watching New Japan, and probably longer before that) Yano has been treated (and behaved like) a comedy jobber. They can put all of the belts on him that they want (and look at how much prestige any of those belts have, BTW), but until he ceases to act like a comedy jobber, he will remain a comedy jobber.
Jack Swagger has probably been pinned more times in WWE in the past few years than Toru Yano has been pinned in New Japan or NOAH, but with Swagger at least he comes across like someone who could actually be a serious threat if you ran into him on the street. As long as I don't have a beard for him to grab, I think could easily take Yano.

[monster mafia]

relax man..he is some new face,a tag with burger or something like that..shibata is coming!

[Thelone]

relax man..he is some new face,a tag with burger or something like that..shibata is coming!

YEAH, DO THAT ROH !!! TURN CHEESEBURGER INTO YANO, THIS BABYFACE BULLSHIT IS OBVIOUSLY JUST A FACADE !!!

[Big Red Machine]

relax man..he is some new face,a tag with burger or something like that..shibata is coming!

Just because he is "a new face" does not automatically mean bringing him in is a good thing. How about we make sure that the old faces are all doing something productive before bringing in random new guys (never sh*tty ones)?

[monster mafia]

relax man..he is some new face,a tag with burger or something like that..shibata is coming!

Just because he is "a new face" does not automatically mean bringing him in is a good thing. How about we make sure that the old faces are all doing something productive before bringing in random new guys (never sh*tty ones)?

[supersonic]

For anyone that comes up with excuses for tippy-top NJPW stars not to do the honors for ROH:

https://twitter.com/STRIGGA/status/752204764163739650

[dhads7161]

For anyone that comes up with excuses for tippy-top NJPW stars not to do the honors for ROH:

https://twitter.com/STRIGGA/status/752204764163739650

People would use the Cruiserweight Classic as an excuse.

[WHG]

Again (and I'm really down on ROH creatively right now), the narrative that the relationship booking is lopsided is far more perception than reality. The issue is over-reliance on the relationship to draw...NOT Ws and Ls. Going into Lethal/AJ, remember how AJ couldn't possibly job, so it was going to be a fuck finish? Styles didn't give notice to New Japan until the day of the Dome show. People seemingly forget that that ever happened.

They also forget all of the wins that ROH guys have gotten over New Japan champions on ROH shows (Kushida, Anderson, the Bucks at the time)...and the fact that reDRagon, Elgin (who although having signed is still effectively a gaijin from ROH) and the Briscoes have all won New Japan titles for fuck's sake.

Okada and Tanahashi should continue to be protected as long as ROH plans on using them to draw. They're special attractions and should be treated as such. It's like people complaining that Lesnar doesn't put people over.

[supersonic]

The lopsided booking concerns have been a flawed criticism; however, the relationship's actual flaw has been accurately pinpointed over at the Honor Roll project.

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/forum/ ... =53&t=1477

It's an interesting discussion point, I rushed a list exclusively from memory trying to focus on the big stories as opposed to just posting the best 25 matches (Which, for me, would probably end up with about 18 matches from the end of 05-mid 07)

The only matches I had that haven't been mentioned were the Cole/ O'Reilly Hybrid Rules match from Best in the World 12 and the Homicide/ Bryan match from Final Battle 2006, again I don't think these are in the top 25 matches in ROH history (although they are both great) But I think they give us an idea of what the company was doing at the time and thus would be more useful as a guide than a dozen Danielson title defences (as great as they were).

In this vein I wanted to include something from the NJPW partnership because it's been such a big part of the companies story over the past 3 years, so I thought about it, and thought about it and the best I could come up with was the Okada & RPG V Bullet Club match from a taping last year. Now, I still haven't "researched" anything so there might be something obvious I'm missing here (Last years 5 on 5 was great and Steen/ Nak had a good match) but what are everyone's top matches from the joint shows?

For such a hot year he had, I'm seeing very little '15 Roddy. I know a lot of his great stuff was outside ROH, but still.

For NJPW joint show stuff, I'd say Okada/RPG vs BC and the Bucks/reDRagon match from NYC would top the list.

Yep, I had the Bucks and reDRagon match on my list, although it's on a joint show I don't necessarily see it as a match that came out of the partnership simply because ROH booked those 4 guys, and that match, without NJPW's help. The Bullet Club six man on the other hand, was very obviously booked because of the New Japan partnership. My point really being, it drives home the idea that while it's great to have the New Japan guys around and it does produce enjoyable shows it won't produce the big important moments that we'll remember in ten years! I can still remember so much of what I loved on the 2006 cards, especially the main events, yet 2014-now I struggle to really pick something that stands out as a must watch to show you what ROH was/is in this era.

The problem with the ROH/NJPW thing producing big memorable moments is that ROH can't match NJPW's star power right now. What is the obvious mega match that they haven't done? There isn't one, because ROH doesn't have a hypothetical Joe to put up against a hypothetical Kobashi.

The shows obviously do good business, but it speaks volumes that arguably two of the best matches are bouts that NJPW could have done themselves in Korakuen Hall.

[Big Red Machine]

Watching the Stuka Jr. debut made me think that one of the major problems with the relationship is where they are focusing it. This should be a house-show thing, not a TV PPV thing. Now that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be put NJPW's tippy-top guys on TV if you have a great match for them when they are over here, and I'm fine with doing the War of the Worlds Tour and Field of Honor as dream-match iPPV thing (and even doing one regular PPV full of New Japan dream-matches and then well-built ROH title matches), but they shouldn't be wasting time and focus on TV with New Japan or CMLL guys who aren't the tippy-top.