Too Much emphasis on the NJPW relationship

[The Dragon Saga]

Oh, KUSHIDA is going to be in Philly this weekend.

I think they should tell him to stay home. I mean, it's not like any of the fans who have bought tickets would want to see him, right? And it's not like anybody is going to buy a ticket to see him, right?
/s

[dhads7161]

Oh, KUSHIDA is going to be in Philly this weekend.

I think they should tell him to stay home. I mean, it's not like any of the fans who have bought tickets would want to see him, right? And it's not like anybody is going to buy a ticket to see him, right?
/s

Nobody has said nobody doesn't by tickets to see the NJPW guys but eventually they won't be able to sell tickets just because they're NJPW guys, there comes a point when ROH is going to have to realize this ROH/NJPW co-promotion is nothing more than a novelty. You don't want a novelty wearing off in two years.

[The Dragon Saga]

Its not being done for novelty, it's being done for the betterment of their business, one which allows them almost exclustivity (sans Liger/NXT last year) to the top stars of New Japan. If this was a thing where Okada is showing up at Booker T's ROW shows, working dark matches for TNA and doing a CZW iPPV before doing ROH, sure, novelty gone. But he isn't, so he and Tanahashi can appear as much as they want and people will still flock to buy tickets, which exposes more people to ROH's product which gets more eyes on ROH which betters their business which makes them more money which allows them to continue growing, like they have been doing, for the past two years with no signs of stopping.

[FanSinceHDNet]

Its not being done for novelty, it's being done for the betterment of their business, one which allows them almost exclustivity (sans Liger/NXT last year) to the top stars of New Japan. If this was a thing where Okada is showing up at Booker T's ROW shows, working dark matches for TNA and doing a CZW iPPV before doing ROH, sure, novelty gone. But he isn't, so he and Tanahashi can appear as much as they want and people will still flock to buy tickets, which exposes more people to ROH's product which gets more eyes on ROH which betters their business which makes them more money which allows them to continue growing, like they have been doing, for the past two years with no signs of stopping.

And realistically, the stars of New Japan have really only run the Philly, New York, and Las Vegas markets, if I am not mistaken. That leaves a lot of their top markets (Chicago in May for the PPV, Baltimore, Nashville, Collinsville/St. Louis) NJPW-free until now. I think from a live event standpoint, they are almost certainly a major draw even if the hardcore ROH fans are getting semi-burnt out or the novelty is wearing thin.

[Burnside]

It's a problem in that the shows without NJPW feel unimportant, and ROH's midcard feels like a bunch of jobbers.

Both issues are fixable with good booking, but, you know.

[Big Red Machine]

New Japan is not the cause of the lack of building up midcard guys. The New Japan guys are in for less than ten shows a year, and for those shows, they probably help sell a lot more VOD/DVDs. There are like, 30 other shows a year during which the midcarders could (and should) be built up.

[AssShooter]

Both issues are fixable with good booking, but, you know.

If we listen to you it's very easy.
Just like Jim Cornette before him, Delirious has a ton of parameters beyond his control to consider while he books the show but obviously, he is the one who is blamed at the end.

[supersonic]

The Vince Russo and Eric Bischoff excuse.

[TYFDK]

Is he wrong though?

[Big Red Machine]

Both issues are fixable with good booking, but, you know.

If we listen to you it's very easy.
Just like Jim Cornette before him, Delirious has a ton of parameters beyond his control to consider while he books the show but obviously, he is the one who is blamed at the end.

I fail to see what outside constraints would prevent him from booking solid midcard feuds that elevate the wrestlers involved.

[Burnside]

New Japan is not the cause of the lack of building up midcard guys.

They're not the only cause, but it doesn't help that ROH's midcard is cannon fodder every time the NJPW guys are in. Even if the booking was there for a Dalton Castle, ACH, Cedric, Moose, or Matt Sydal to gain traction (and I'm not saying it is), it's hard if Okada, Tanahashi, Omega, etc show up every four months to crush them on PPV.

Right now, there is zero doubt that the NJPW relationship has more positives than negatives for ROH. But you can see some long-term problems with the dynamic that will hurt ROH. Many of those problems could be ameliorated if ROH's core product was more compelling. If it was, NJPW's presence would be a bonus and not a band-aid.

[Burnside]

Both issues are fixable with good booking, but, you know.

If we listen to you it's very easy.
Just like Jim Cornette before him, Delirious has a ton of parameters beyond his control to consider while he books the show but obviously, he is the one who is blamed at the end.

What parameters caused nonsensical booking in the Young/Castle feud?

What parameters caused Matt Sydal to take a completely unnecessary pin on PPV two weeks before challenging for the World Title?

What parameters caused Kyle O'Reilly to NEVER get a significant singles win in his entire ROH career, but get pushed to two PPV World Title shots that it was impossible to believe he'd win?

What parameters are preventing a microphone from being placed in Alex Shelley's hand for the past six months?

What parameters caused whatever the Cedric/Veda angle is supposed to be?

What parameters are causing Jay Briscoe, the most over babyface in the company, to have no feuds or angles for the past 8 months?

Etc etc etc

[The Dragon Saga]

What parameters caused nonsensical booking in the Young/Castle feud?

What was nonsensical about this feud?

What parameters caused Matt Sydal to take a completely unnecessary pin on PPV two weeks before challenging for the World Title?

Because he's challenging for the title at a house show and because there is nothing bad about losing to a group calling themselves the fucking ELITE. Hes challenging to sell tickets on the premise It'll be a great match, not based off anything currently happening in the promotion.

What parameters caused Kyle O'Reilly to NEVER get a significant singles win in his entire ROH career, but get pushed to two PPV World Title shots that it was impossible to believe he'd win?

Except for when he brought the ROH World Champion to a time-limit draw and when he made him tap out. But we'll ignore that.

What parameters are preventing a microphone from being placed in Alex Shelley's hand for the past six months?

You'll love the tapings from Vegas then!

What parameters caused whatever the Cedric/Veda angle is supposed to be?

Cedric has no momentum, they tried to do with him what they did with Lethal where they turned him heel and paired him with a manager who is able to get heat. It was also to turn Moose face and to set-up their feud to build up Moose is far more important than Cedric right now and back then.

What parameters are causing Jay Briscoe, the most over babyface in the company, to have no feuds or angles for the past 8 months?

Jay has stated it in multiple promos that he and Mark are looking to win back the ROH tag titles because of how the tag division has picked up. That in itself is an angle, The Briscoes are trying to take back the titles they built up. And we'll ignore his feud with Adam Page cause, why not?

[Wilson]

Castle/Young was nonsensical in that it was booked to be about Young’s vague intolerance of Dalton’s vague personal orientation, then about Young taking a liking to the Boys and trying to redeem them by making them more like “real men,” then about the Boys costing Dalton Castle his match against Silas due to infatuation by abduction(?), then about Silas and his friend exacting revenge on the whole retinue(?). It’s been months of nonsense. Both workers are better than this angle and they’re both better than schmoozing around the lower card.

Having Sydal take the pin instead of ACH at the PPV makes everyone in ROH creative seem extremely short-sighted.

O’Reilly has no major singles victories. In singles, he hasn’t done anything impressive since last April/May.

The Moose/Cedric/Veda angle happened six months ago. He didn’t have a match at Final Battle nor the 14YA. ROH isn’t committed to him, yet him and Veda take up so much promo time. (Though, I really am enjoying his feud with Gresham at the moment.)

Jay Briscoe is one of the greatest draws/promos ROH has ever had and he is the company’s major stepping stone. Booking him in random Briscoes matches doesn’t benefit them as much as him in built singles matches. The Briscoes don’t need an arch that leads them into tag team contention. They’re the Briscoe Brothers.

These aren’t stories that are a blight to the promotion, but it’s hard to argue that the midcard has been given a rather uncommitted direction for some time.

[FanSinceHDNet]

The Vince Russo and Eric Bischoff excuse.

I would then argue everything has been more impressive. ROH has seen its largest period of sustained growth and profitability under Delirious.

[DBSommer]

I remember how angry folks were when Marufuji had to back out back in '13 or so, and how they complained there was never any bring ins and how everything sucked and how it wasn't cool like in the good old days when you had KENTA or the DG guys or Ibushi coming over.

3 years later it's how angry people are that there are all these brings and why isn't there more focus on their own guys and building up your mid-card instead of wasting time on outside talent. It's not like the good old days when they didn't worry about other promotions wrestlers and wasting time on pointless matches.


It's like listening to someone you're convinced is setting up a joke, except it keeps going on and on because there is no punchline because it's not a joke.

[187_Joeism]

I remember how angry the folks were when Marufuji had to back out back in '13 or so, and how they complained there was never any bring ins and how everything sucked and how it wasn't cool like in the good old days when you had KENTA or the DG guys or Ibushi coming over.

3 years later it's how angry people are that there are all these brings and why isn't there more focus on their own guys and building up your mid-card instead of wasting time on outside talent. It's not like the good old days when they didn't worry about other promotions wrestlers and wasting time on pointless matches.


It's like listening to someone you're convinced is setting up to a joke, except it keeps going on and on because there is no punchline because it's not a joke.

REALLY good point here, i remember that too.

[dhads7161]

I remember how angry folks were when Marufuji had to back out back in '13 or so, and how they complained there was never any bring ins and how everything sucked and how it wasn't cool like in the good old days when you had KENTA or the DG guys or Ibushi coming over.

3 years later it's how angry people are that there are all these brings and why isn't there more focus on their own guys and building up your mid-card instead of wasting time on outside talent. It's not like the good old days when they didn't worry about other promotions wrestlers and wasting time on pointless matches.


It's like listening to someone you're convinced is setting up a joke, except it keeps going on and on because there is no punchline because it's not a joke.

Back then was the roster taking a backseat to them? No Back then they were roster additions it seems, not outsiders especially guys like KENTA and Morishima. And you know, the roster (including them) actually got built up creatively instead of just trotting them out as guys from Pro Wrestling NOAH and expecting people to buy tickets just for that reason alone. Now ROH puts no effort into building up any feuds with those guys, come see these guys just because they're the stars of NJPW, not because there's any other reason than that to be interested in them. Eventually that's going to wear off especially if they're used so often like they've been the past year since Global Wars/War of the Worlds week.

Why is it that EVOLVE, who only has iPPV, have better built stars, feuds, and angles than ROH who has fucking TV? Can't be that hard to book your stars in meaningful angles and feuds when you have TV.

[The Dragon Saga]

Castle/Young was nonsensical in that it was booked to be about Young’s vague intolerance of Dalton’s vague personal orientation, then about Young taking a liking to the Boys and trying to redeem them by making them more like “real men,” then about the Boys costing Dalton Castle his match against Silas due to infatuation by abduction(?), then about Silas and his friend exacting revenge on the whole retinue(?). It’s been months of nonsense. Both workers are better than this angle and they’re both better than schmoozing around the lower card.

So you don't want layered feuds? You want simple, "I don't like you, I'm going to beat you up" feuds like in WWE? Man, you must of hated The Age of the Fall then.

Having Sydal take the pin instead of ACH at the PPV makes everyone in ROH creative seem extremely short-sighted.

Or it makes you or Burnside extremely fixated on the fact that a loss doesn't matter. It. Doesn't. Matter. They put Sydal in that match to sell tickets. He won't win, everyone knows he won't win, but he and Lethal could have a ***** match that'll sell tickets to get people there, make the people who attend comeback and the people who can't attend buy the VOD/DVD.

O’Reilly has no major singles victories. In singles, he hasn’t done anything impressive since last April/May.

Because he's a bit too busy being one-half of one of the best tag teams in the world and one of the few tag teams along with The Bucks who actually captured interest from fans and helped bring some energy back into tag team wrestling. He and Bobby's W/L record as a team alone constitutes title shots, and then the reason he main evented the 14th was because he was screwed at ASE, so he deserved a second chance. And whatever happened to ROH being the place where people get opportunities? Jay Lethal challenged CM Punk for the ROH World Championship. Did he deserve it? No. Chris Sabin challenged Bryan Danielson for the ROH World Championship. Did he deserve it? No. Jerry Lynn challenged Nigel for the ROH World Championship and WON IT! Did he deserve it? No. Did Eddie Edwards deserve to challenge Roddy? Did Rhyno or Eddie Kingston deserve to challenge Kevin Steen? Should I continue asking questions when I've just drilled my point into the ground? No.

The Moose/Cedric/Veda angle happened six months ago. He didn’t have a match at Final Battle nor the 14YA. ROH isn’t committed to him, yet him and Veda take up so much promo time. (Though, I really am enjoying his feud with Gresham at the moment.)

Yes, promo time, not match time. I'm sure he'd probably prefer match time, but he doesn't get it. We all know and agree, Cedric has dropped the ball. He has zero momentum, I don't think many want to see him to begin with, I think there is an argument that he is unsafe because its at least four people now that have suffered injuries wrestling him. He has had an angle, their keeping him in the picture, he's a lower midcard guy, those spots have to be filled by someone.

Jay Briscoe is one of the greatest draws/promos ROH has ever had and he is the company’s major stepping stone. Booking him in random Briscoes matches doesn’t benefit them as much as him in built singles matches. The Briscoes don’t need an arch that leads them into tag team contention. They’re the Briscoe Brothers.

They can't put him, Jay Lethal and Adam Cole all in the same spot when they've one hour of content a week, maybe two to three house shows a month and maybe a PPV every two months. It's not possible, someone has to take a step back. Jay had his almost year long reign as ROH World Champion, now he has to take a step back to let Jay Lethal shine. What do they do? Bring him back up to take another loss to Lethal? Let him win the ROH World title back? This is a guy who while over a lot of the same people on here said he didn't make a good enough ROH World Champion.

The whole saying, "opinions are like assholes..." fits very well for this forum nowadays.

These aren’t stories that are a blight to the promotion, but it’s hard to argue that the midcard has been given a rather uncommitted direction for some time.

Has the booking been revolutionary? No. Tell me whose is right now. New Japan's is being criticized, NXT's is simpiler and more mundane than ROH's. WWE has too much time and not enough sense, nobody watches TNA, Lucha Underground is highly scripted and plays out more like a soap opera and less like a wrestling show. But is the booking bad? For me, no. It needs something, it needs some buzz and some life into it, I agree with that, but I have no issue with the people being pushed and feel like some on here - as do fans on every forum - fail to see the big picture most of the time.

[DXvsNWO1994]

What parameters caused Matt Sydal to take a completely unnecessary pin on PPV two weeks before challenging for the World Title?

Honestly, I would have bet the farm (if I had a farm) that ACH would take the pin in that match, considering he was the only one who wasn't holding a title of any kind, but Sydal getting pinned by one of The Young Bucks makes sense if they're challenging Sydal & Ricochet at some point in the near future.