Different ROH product now

[enigma89]

I was wondering if I am alone on this, or some here feel the same way -

I was a huge ROH fan from about 2008-2011, as I attended every single NY show and even traveled to some shows outside of NY. The product was just so good with Bryan Danielson, Nigel McGuiness, Austin Aries, NOAH guys, etc. The show was not available on TV until the HDNet TV deal but I made sure to purchase as much DVDs as I could. There was just something about the product that I just was hooked on watching, as I was truly a huge fan of ROH.

After Final Battle 2011 I just began to loss interest in the product, and by the summer of 2012 I just completely disconnected from the promotion. Since then I have watched some of the TV and PPVs, even attended Final Battle 2014 and MCU outdoor show but the feeling is just not the same. I do not understand if its the wrestling, storylines, TV or my own feeling of lost interest in the promotion. I feel that each time I began to seriously follow the product I just skip a TV show week and then a month passes and I haven't watched ROH. Once again I am going to attempt to watch the product on a weekly basis, as hopefully I get that feeling back that I had back in 2008-2011.

I was just wondering if anyone here feels the same way.

[Burnside]

I think everybody pretty much agrees it's not what it was, even though it's probably more successful as a business now than ever before. The booking isn't there, both in terms of storytelling and in terms of match-making.

Wrestling's excitement and energy largely comes from generating anticipation for upcoming matches and events, and modern ROH struggles to do that. Without the NJPW relationship I think they'd really be fucked because at least for now the NJPW guest stars generate excitement on big shows just by showing up - even if the bookers seem unable/unwilling to actually book even simple angles or stories involving them.

[The Dragon Saga]

ROH for me has had two periods. Period one was obviously 2002 until 2011, then Sinclair bought it and (I'll give Jim Cornette some praise for this) as Jim Cornette said, "it was time that ROH grew up." They needed to ditch the indyriffic feel and vibe. They needed to start becoming more serious as a stand alone promotion. They gradually did this, I think Jim failed like many others did, he'll blame a guy in the office, I blame him, because at least in Delirious' reign ROH has came along so far that it is bigger then its ever been and the guys in it come across more like stars then ever before.

The booking is different, the style is different, but it's being run as a smarter business. If I'm not mistaken didn't Cary Silkin lose something crazy like $20 million just running ROH before SBG took over? It's not cheap to run a wrestling company, especially the size of ROH who run 40+ shows a year, do a TV taping a month, sometimes more, are doing more-and-more PPV's and have house shows in-between. The New Japan relationship is definitely a big boost, and they treat it as such, its important, but ROH still has some "indie" tendencies they have to drop.

It is a different product. Of course it is. It has to be. People wouldn't take an indie on TV seriously. But it still has a bit of a way to come.

[Big Red Machine]

ROH for me has had two periods. Period one was obviously 2002 until 2011, then Sinclair bought it and (I'll give Jim Cornette some praise for this) as Jim Cornette said, "it was time that ROH grew up." They needed to ditch the indyriffic feel and vibe. They needed to start becoming more serious as a stand alone promotion. They gradually did this, I think Jim failed like many others did, he'll blame a guy in the office, I blame him, because at least in Delirious' reign ROH has came along so far that it is bigger then its ever been and the guys in it come across more like stars then ever before.

The booking is different, the style is different, but it's being run as a smarter business. If I'm not mistaken didn't Cary Silkin lose something crazy like $20 million just running ROH before SBG took over? It's not cheap to run a wrestling company, especially the size of ROH who run 40+ shows a year, do a TV taping a month, sometimes more, are doing more-and-more PPV's and have house shows in-between. The New Japan relationship is definitely a big boost, and they treat it as such, its important, but ROH still has some "indie" tendencies they have to drop.

It is a different product. Of course it is. It has to be. People wouldn't take an indie on TV seriously. But it still has a bit of a way to come.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think that the "indy" things that have been dropped are not the sort of things won't make people take the product seriously. In fact, I think they are the sorts of things that would make the product feel more unique:
Storyline-relevant house shows with individualized names are the sort of thing that tells the audience that there is more going on here. Not that you have to see all of the house shows to understand the stories (the announcers should be able to help with that), but that this is a (for lack of a better term) "deeper" product, with a bit more thought put into it, and it lets the people know that these house shows are not like WWE house shows where if you go to the Friday show and the Saturday show and the Sunday show, you're probably going to see the exact same card with the exact same results three different times. It makes it look like a product that is worth emotionally investing in (assuming the booking steps up and gives you the chance to do that).

[TQType]

I think of it kind of like SNL. The current cast always feels like something less special than previous eras, but then a couple years go by and you miss that particular era. Save the non-Lorne era (or 2011-2012 Early SBG shows).

As many have stated, the business side is finally catching up to what modern wrestling fans expect (traditional PPV, weekly TV, finally getting upgrades in production) and attendance is fairly regularly increasing year-over-year. The world championship still maintained most of the prestige that it had in previous eras despite more content being asked compared to 20-30 show years. Also, a good point was made that the house shows usually give at least one good reason to leave the house and buy a ticket.

Certainly there are issues in story lines and character development, but the in-ring quality is consistently solid. Gabe had/has a great eye for different talents and packaging them in a certain way that modern ROH has struggled with. Its better than 2011-2012, but I don't personally feel like the Top Prospects Tournament is the best way to introduce talent. And save Dalton Castle, a lot of newer guys feel the same. It's a lot better than it was, but always could use improvement.

Sometimes the main events get overbooked, and it does feel like nearly all heel factions want to tear down ROH. So it's a mixed bag. I would love to see some bigger free agent talent (like a motivated Low Ki) come to/come back to the company, but I assume most of that is issues with the talent.

One thing that REALLY brought me back to the fold was the Samoa Joe return. I know that's not much to do with modern ROH, but it was appreciated. With DB's retirement, I really appreciate that I got to see him wrestle in ROH one more time. I hope his WWE run is a success, but he'll always be the ROH legend to me.

[Wrestlingfan345]

Roh is by far much better then it was during the gabe days it was absolutely a great thing when Roh moved away from gabe. I have no doubt he would of been the death of that company if they never fired him. He's not a bad booker but man look at how evolve has no buzz and does shows in front of less then 100 fans sometimes it's just bad if it wasn't for gabe hooking up with triple h and nxt evolve would have less then 2 years to live if that. they got buzz because of that. The Roh during the gabe days to me was hard to watch. Today's Roh feels like a legit company better production, ppv, TV, that deal with new Japan etc. The production could be much better for sure but I'm sure that will get better overtime. Seriously for anybody to say today's Roh doesn't feel special is a moron plain and simple. Sorry guys aren't sticking forks in each other's heads and diving off stages and cursing up and down anymore like during the nerdy gabe days go watch evolve the most boring company I've ever seen. I'll watch Roh a legit mainstream company now that yes you damn right feels special!

[Scottanized]

I personally feel like the change of the entrance atmosphere changed the entire product (at least for myself). We went from what Cary described as a rock-concert-like entrance to a generic boring one. Before there were crazy lights and the copyrighted songs. Obviously I realize they had to move away from the songs (which stinks but was necessary), but with the songs went all the fancy lights and a piece of the crowd as well. They just aren't as interested in the entrances anymore. Watch an entrance from an older show and one now, they just don't compare.

[ROH4Ever]

I personally feel like the change of the entrance atmosphere changed the entire product (at least for myself). We went from what Cary described as a rock-concert-like entrance to a generic boring one. Before there were crazy lights and the copyrighted songs. Obviously I realize they had to move away from the songs (which stinks but was necessary), but with the songs went all the fancy lights and a piece of the crowd as well. They just aren't as interested in the entrances anymore. Watch an entrance from an older show and one now, they just don't compare.

I completely agree with you, it's honestly probably the biggest difference between now and then. Atmosphere is incredibly important to wrestling, take a look at WWE now vs. WWE in the attitude era and ruthless aggression era. Back then, you had unique PPV stage sets and a more raw and gritty feeling to the product overall, and it was incredibly popular. Now? It's cookie cutter stage set up to save money, PPV sets look exactly the same aside from Wrestlemania.

Modern ROH definitely isn't as good in my opinion, but I'd still rate it a solid 8/10 wrestling product.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

I personally feel like the change of the entrance atmosphere changed the entire product (at least for myself). We went from what Cary described as a rock-concert-like entrance to a generic boring one. Before there were crazy lights and the copyrighted songs. Obviously I realize they had to move away from the songs (which stinks but was necessary), but with the songs went all the fancy lights and a piece of the crowd as well. They just aren't as interested in the entrances anymore. Watch an entrance from an older show and one now, they just don't compare.

I completely agree with you, it's honestly probably the biggest difference between now and then. Atmosphere is incredibly important to wrestling, take a look at WWE now vs. WWE in the attitude era and ruthless aggression era. Back then, you had unique PPV stage sets and a more raw and gritty feeling to the product overall, and it was incredibly popular. Now? It's cookie cutter stage set up to save money, PPV sets look exactly the same aside from Wrestlemania.

Modern ROH definitely isn't as good in my opinion, but I'd still rate it a solid 8/10 wrestling product.

I made a similar point to this in another thread. Was ECW any less because of the bare bones ring entrance decorations? Fuck no.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

I think everybody pretty much agrees it's not what it was, even though it's probably more successful as a business now than ever before. The booking isn't there, both in terms of storytelling and in terms of match-making.

Wrestling's excitement and energy largely comes from generating anticipation for upcoming matches and events, and modern ROH struggles to do that. Without the NJPW relationship I think they'd really be fucked because at least for now the NJPW guest stars generate excitement on big shows just by showing up - even if the bookers seem unable/unwilling to actually book even simple angles or stories involving them.

This.

[Big Red Machine]

Roh is by far much better then it was during the gabe days it was absolutely a great thing when Roh moved away from gabe. I have no doubt he would of been the death of that company if they never fired him. He's not a bad booker but man look at how evolve has no buzz and does shows in front of less then 100 fans sometimes it's just bad if it wasn't for gabe hooking up with triple h and nxt evolve would have less then 2 years to live if that. they got buzz because of that. The Roh during the gabe days to me was hard to watch. Today's Roh feels like a legit company better production, ppv, TV, that deal with new Japan etc. The production could be much better for sure but I'm sure that will get better overtime. Seriously for anybody to say today's Roh doesn't feel special is a moron plain and simple. Sorry guys aren't sticking forks in each other's heads and diving off stages and cursing up and down anymore like during the nerdy gabe days go watch evolve the most boring company I've ever seen. I'll watch Roh a legit mainstream company now that yes you damn right feels special!

Yes, EVOLVE runs small buildings and has trouble getting buzz outside of hardcore fans. The difference is that Gabe always had Cary to push him to try new markets/bigger buildings etc. (Gabe himself has said this). EVOLVE is now 6 years old, and they're still running shows in two or three locations. ROH was way past that point by their third anniversary (with Gabe at the helm). By the time Gabe left, ROH's biggest markets were drawing ten times what EVOLVE currently draws in its biggest markets.

[TQType]

Roh is by far much better then it was during the gabe days it was absolutely a great thing when Roh moved away from gabe. I have no doubt he would of been the death of that company if they never fired him. He's not a bad booker but man look at how evolve has no buzz and does shows in front of less then 100 fans sometimes it's just bad if it wasn't for gabe hooking up with triple h and nxt evolve would have less then 2 years to live if that. they got buzz because of that. The Roh during the gabe days to me was hard to watch. Today's Roh feels like a legit company better production, ppv, TV, that deal with new Japan etc. The production could be much better for sure but I'm sure that will get better overtime. Seriously for anybody to say today's Roh doesn't feel special is a moron plain and simple. Sorry guys aren't sticking forks in each other's heads and diving off stages and cursing up and down anymore like during the nerdy gabe days go watch evolve the most boring company I've ever seen. I'll watch Roh a legit mainstream company now that yes you damn right feels special!

Yes, EVOLVE runs small buildings and has trouble getting buzz outside of hardcore fans. The difference is that Gabe always had Cary to push him to try new markets/bigger buildings etc. (Gabe himself has said this). EVOLVE is now 6 years old, and they're still running shows in two or three locations. ROH was way past that point by their third anniversary (with Gabe at the helm). By the time Gabe left, ROH's biggest markets were drawing ten times what EVOLVE currently draws in its biggest markets.

Also, outside of Homicide, there really wasn't much cursing or diving off stages. That sounds a lot more like ECW. But what do I know? I've only been going to shows since they started running Chicago.

[supersonic]

ROH is worth supporting but no longer has anything truly unique to distinguish it from the rest of the industry.

[Big Red Machine]

ROH is worth supporting but no longer has anything truly unique to distinguish it from the rest of the industry.

This is pretty much how I feel about it now.

[ColourMeCurious]

Sometimes I think ROH has gotten lazy.

Happy with being on the TV markets they are in. Happy with going to the same venues and drawing well. Happy with the same style booking. They might be happy, but nothing says "Must See This Show' right now.

And that is a shame because I love this roster.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

ROH is worth supporting but no longer has anything truly unique to distinguish it from the rest of the industry.

This is pretty much how I feel about it now.

Same here. My God, during the Summer of Punk and the ROH/CZW feud, I was probably at my peak as a wrestling fan. This was probably my favorite era in my 25+years of watching wrestling.

[supersonic]

Went to the TV taping last night. Fun show but ROH feels a bit soulless to me. WWE can feel the same way a lot but they can occasionally grab you with stuff that feels special. Nobody in ROH grabs me as a personality in a way that guys like Punk, Bryan, Steen, Nigel, Joe, Homicide and Generico did. There's not a young talent where watching him makes you feel like you're getting in on the ground floor of something special. I don't know, it's a fine enjoyable show and they're growing but I wish it was more of a special alternative.

[mulkeybros]

ROH is worth supporting but no longer has anything truly unique to distinguish it from the rest of the industry.

This is pretty much how I feel about it now.

At least on the US front, they have the NJPW relationship which makes them unique, but other than that, I agree. It's a competently run organization, with basic if unspectacular storylines (which do not insult their audience), and generally good to great in-ring action. In this day and age, it's a company certainly worth supporting.

[SteenMark23]

Delirious needs to step down immedately. It's amazing how much better of a product EVOLVE is compared to ROH at the moment.

[Big Red Machine]

Delirious needs to step down immedately. It's amazing how much better of a product EVOLVE is compared to ROH at the moment.

This. It all just makes me wish Gabe would come back and we could somehow merge the two rosters.