I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
We have the most stacked ROH roster in years
Undoubtedly the BEST tag division in the world right now
Jay Lethal on a monster tear as double champion
And all we get are fuck finishes, shitty stables, and the Kingdom.
How many masked people have we got interfering in matches over his run? And seriously like 4 people interfering in the main event so fucking Mike Bennett and Matt Taven can stand tall at the end? Does he not hear how over some people are and then EVERY time Bennett and Taven do anything you can hear people whispering in the crowd
And then the tag division. HOW MANY 3-4 way tag matches are we going to get on a PPV that end in cheating bullshit?
I know he has deep ties in the company and all, but he is just a flat out boring booker. Name ONE memorable angle in his entire run as booker?
Undoubtedly the BEST tag division in the world right now
Jay Lethal on a monster tear as double champion
And all we get are fuck finishes, shitty stables, and the Kingdom.
How many masked people have we got interfering in matches over his run? And seriously like 4 people interfering in the main event so fucking Mike Bennett and Matt Taven can stand tall at the end? Does he not hear how over some people are and then EVERY time Bennett and Taven do anything you can hear people whispering in the crowd
And then the tag division. HOW MANY 3-4 way tag matches are we going to get on a PPV that end in cheating bullshit?
I know he has deep ties in the company and all, but he is just a flat out boring booker. Name ONE memorable angle in his entire run as booker?
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I...like the Kingdom... At least as Cole's flunkies. Don't mind the finish of the main event if it leads to Kyle winning the belt on his next shot, but...not sure that's in the cards. Seems to be building to Cole/Kyle O'Reilly. But yeah, while I'm not exactly calling for the lizard man's head, I wouldn't mind if they handed the reigns over to someone else.fm20000 wrote:We have the most stacked ROH roster in years
Undoubtedly the BEST tag division in the world right now
Jay Lethal on a monster tear as double champion
And all we get are fuck finishes, shitty stables, and the Kingdom.
How many masked people have we got interfering in matches over his run? And seriously like 4 people interfering in the main event so fucking Mike Bennett and Matt Taven can stand tall at the end? Does he not hear how over some people are and then EVERY time Bennett and Taven do anything you can hear people whispering in the crowd
Who exactly's out there that could do the job, though? Cornette was universally reviled, Pearce is working for NXT, Gabe/WWN are rumored to have a working relationship with the WWE. Honest question.
Timing out the PPVs is also a big issue, at least to me personally. Had the fuck finish happened 20+ minutes into a grueling, great main event I think it comes off slightly better.
Ah, well, 'least we've all got something to complain about tonight.
- Northwoods_Nightmare
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
Nah. If you didn't see a similar finish coming in the main event, then I'm not sure what to tell you. I thought it was pretty obvious from the get-go that this was setting up a rematch, O'Reilly needed to remain strong, and the only real option was for him to get screwed somehow. Not to mention this has always been presented as a somewhat lesser PPV.
Agree on the Kingdom stuff though. Tag champs I can see since they've had championship success in NJPW and it's not like the Addiction was setting the world on fire. Need someone to hold the titles until War Machine gets back to the states.
Wasn't a fan of the KRD thing either, but whatever. I don't disagree with the booking so much, but it would be better on TV rather than a PPV.
Overall, I think the main event scene has been booked extremely well over Delirious's entire tenure as booker. Well thought out and a number of meaningful slow building rivalries. At the same time, he's managed to keep pretty unpredictable on occasion.
Agree on the Kingdom stuff though. Tag champs I can see since they've had championship success in NJPW and it's not like the Addiction was setting the world on fire. Need someone to hold the titles until War Machine gets back to the states.
Wasn't a fan of the KRD thing either, but whatever. I don't disagree with the booking so much, but it would be better on TV rather than a PPV.
Overall, I think the main event scene has been booked extremely well over Delirious's entire tenure as booker. Well thought out and a number of meaningful slow building rivalries. At the same time, he's managed to keep pretty unpredictable on occasion.
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
As soon as Cole ate the pin in the prior match and they zoomed in on his face I was like "Fuck..."Northwoods_Nightmare wrote:Nah. If you didn't see a similar finish coming in the main event, then I'm not sure what to tell you. I thought it was pretty obvious from the get-go that this was setting up a rematch, O'Reilly needed to remain strong, and the only real option was for him to get screwed somehow. Not to mention this has always been presented as a somewhat lesser PPV.
Agree on the Kingdom stuff though. Tag champs I can see since they've had championship success in NJPW and it's not like the Addiction was setting the world on fire. Need someone to hold the titles until War Machine gets back to the states.
Wasn't a fan of the KRD thing either, but whatever. I don't disagree with the booking so much, but it would be better on TV rather than a PPV.
Overall, I think the main event scene has been booked extremely well over Delirious's entire tenure as booker. Well thought out and a number of meaningful slow building rivalries. At the same time, he's managed to keep pretty unpredictable on occasion.
Though I feel like if they'd had Kyle lose to Lethal clean in Lethal's second match of the night people would of been complaining about that as well.
- lariat_tubman
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
There does seem to be a real reliance of fuck finishes lately. I haven't watch the PPV yet so I cant comment on it but at least on TV it seems like the only way they set up rematches is by someone interfering.
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
The Kingdom is having a great year, i think it´s stubborn to not give them credit at this point.
Cole angle was well played because he never attacked The Kingdom and was a good surprise here, i was not a fan of all the shenanigans during the Maint Event but the turn itself was good done IMO.
Heels are always going to cheat, i don´t understand the obssesion with clean finishes when the heel is winning, it´s how wrestling work you are the bad guy you don´t care about how you win.
Good angles booked by Delirious you have Jay vs Cole and Lethal vs Jay, i don´t think he is an excellent booker by any means, but he is not bad either.
Cole angle was well played because he never attacked The Kingdom and was a good surprise here, i was not a fan of all the shenanigans during the Maint Event but the turn itself was good done IMO.
Heels are always going to cheat, i don´t understand the obssesion with clean finishes when the heel is winning, it´s how wrestling work you are the bad guy you don´t care about how you win.
Good angles booked by Delirious you have Jay vs Cole and Lethal vs Jay, i don´t think he is an excellent booker by any means, but he is not bad either.
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
They need to book Jay Lethal like Nigel187_Joeism wrote:The Kingdom is having a great year, i think it´s stubborn to not give them credit at this point.
Cole angle was well played because he never attacked The Kingdom and was a good surprise here, i was not a fan of all the shenanigans during the Maint Event but the turn itself was good done IMO.
Heels are always going to cheat, i don´t understand the obssesion with clean finishes when the heel is winning, it´s how wrestling work you are the bad guy you don´t care about how you win.
Good angles booked by Delirious you have Jay vs Cole and Lethal vs Jay, i don´t think he is an excellent booker by any means, but he is not bad either.
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I feel like you can get away with it on TV some weeks, but they REALLY need to dial back on in before they completely alienate large portions of their fan base. Particularly on PPV/iPPV.lariat_tubman wrote:There does seem to be a real reliance of fuck finishes lately. I haven't watch the PPV yet so I cant comment on it but at least on TV it seems like the only way they set up rematches is by someone interfering.
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
Screwy finishes are fine once in a while. But if you use them in match after match, up and down the card, fans start to expect them and begin to not believe they'll see a clear winner, which pretty soon makes them not give a shit about the matches. See: WCW, TNA.187_Joeism wrote:
Heels are always going to cheat, i don´t understand the obssesion with clean finishes when the heel is winning, it´s how wrestling work you are the bad guy you don´t care about how you win.
.
- Northwoods_Nightmare
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
Maybe I'll re-phrase what I said. I think Delirious's big picture/long-term booking is excellent. The booking of specific matches along the way is sometimes hit or miss. He seems to have a tendency to overthink/overbook how some matches play out.
His willingness to bring in outside or part time talent is great. Booking exciting matches for the majority of house shows has been great, if random at times.
He's not without his flaws, but I think the positives definitely outweigh his negatives.
His willingness to bring in outside or part time talent is great. Booking exciting matches for the majority of house shows has been great, if random at times.
He's not without his flaws, but I think the positives definitely outweigh his negatives.
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I agree with this, they are using them a lot lately.Burnside wrote:Screwy finishes are fine once in a while. But if you use them in match after match, up and down the card, fans start to expect them and begin to not believe they'll see a clear winner, which pretty soon makes them not give a shit about the matches. See: WCW, TNA.187_Joeism wrote:
Heels are always going to cheat, i don´t understand the obssesion with clean finishes when the heel is winning, it´s how wrestling work you are the bad guy you don´t care about how you win.
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Lethal gimmick it´s totally different than Nigel.fm20000 wrote:They need to book Jay Lethal like Nigel
Last edited by 187_Joeism on Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- DXvsNWO1994
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
The Kingdom is having a good year, but I'd say that's more specific to ROH. I enjoyed their stuff on the Winter Warriors Tour (specifically Dayton & Atlanta), and I really dug their two Six-Man Tags with The Bullet Cub (one of them I saw live). Their work in New Japan, however, has been pretty disappointing. Those matches with Anderson & Gallows were the worst part of New Japan PPV's in the Spring/Summer Months.187_Joeism wrote:The Kingdom is having a great year, i think it´s stubborn to not give them credit at this point.
- Northwoods_Nightmare
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
Isn't there an unwritten rule to never bring that debacle up ever again?DXvsNWO1994 wrote:Those matches with Anderson & Gallows were the worst part of New Japan PPV's in the Spring/Summer Months.
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I think if you're only doing 4 TV ppvs per year, and you're charging $40 for them, you can't do this finish for your PPV world title match. Do this on TV.
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I liked some of their "Road to" matches and last year in the G1 tag they were good but their matches against Anderson & Gallows are horrible for some reason
- lariat_tubman
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I always thought the issue with the Kingdom wasn't their quality of work, it's the fact that they have never gotten much of a reaction.
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I quite liked the ME finish. It's too soon for Lethal to drop the belt, but O'Reilly would look like a chump if he lost clean to a guy who'd already had a match. So I figured/hoped SOMETHING screwy wold go down. Except I was leaning towards a Bobby Fish turn. What we got was seriously unexpected. And makes total sense. And has legs for some really intense feuding & astounding matches from here on out. A spectacular GOTCHA moment all around.
Other than that though, yeah. I wouldn't mind some new creative vision.
Other than that though, yeah. I wouldn't mind some new creative vision.
I'm gonna be at the top of the mountain in three years, with or without this belt. I'm gonna be the best that ever lived. And what you don't understand is, even if I don't get that far, at least I had the courage to get off my ass and try.
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I personally wouldn't have minded it, had it not come at the expense of a PPV main event. As I specified earlier, save that shit for TV and it's fine.BlackLesnar wrote:I quite liked the ME finish. It's too soon for Lethal to drop the belt, but O'Reilly would look like a chump if he lost clean to a guy who'd already had a match. So I figured/hoped SOMETHING screwy wold go down. Except I was leaning towards a Bobby Fish turn. What we got was seriously unexpected. And makes total sense. And has legs for some really intense feuding & astounding matches from here on out. A spectacular GOTCHA moment all around.
Other than that though, yeah. I wouldn't mind some new creative vision.
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Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
Even if they change the booker the things that fm20000 complained are not going to change i think.
You have a stacked tag team division and you are going to need to book multiman matches to keep everybody involved.
The Kingdom are not going anywhere, if not like some new booker would fired them.
Cheat finishes are always going to happen with more or less frequency.
You have a stacked tag team division and you are going to need to book multiman matches to keep everybody involved.
The Kingdom are not going anywhere, if not like some new booker would fired them.
Cheat finishes are always going to happen with more or less frequency.
Re: I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker
I contend that ROH is the toughest promotion in the world to book. Limited budgets, taping 4 weeks of TV at a time while running house shows that (unlike TNA & the WWE) are all expected to be unique and stand on their own to some degree, a mix of contracted talent and free agents, having to worry about PPV builds and one-off "big" shows like Field of Honor or the NJPW shows in between. It's not an easy job. My only real complaints are PPV shenanigans and overuse of some finishes or spots.
What he really needs is someone to edit his in-match booking...like someone to say "wait...no" when he gets to the part about Dijak running in during the main event tonight.
The bottom line, though, is regardless of what you think of him creatively, the metrics for their business demonstrate that he's doing a lot right and it'd be hard to justify removing him because some people subjectively don't like his finishes.
What he really needs is someone to edit his in-match booking...like someone to say "wait...no" when he gets to the part about Dijak running in during the main event tonight.
The bottom line, though, is regardless of what you think of him creatively, the metrics for their business demonstrate that he's doing a lot right and it'd be hard to justify removing him because some people subjectively don't like his finishes.