I think it's time for Delirious to step down as booker

[ninetwentyfour]

Dragon, that's cool that you like Mike Bennett/The Kingdom (I like a lot of people that many aren't into), but how can you continue to justify their push and position when they flat out aren't over, aren't working with the general audience? Others who are fans in this thread have even acknowledged this.

I enjoyed Mike Bennett way more in 2012. To me, he is legitimately one of the worst wrestlers in the world today. Completely worthless.

[ROHFan25]

I can understand Dragon Sagas points, because when he lays it out like that, he's technically right. The problem I have with all of it though is the booking of it. Storyline advancement, blow offs, strength after a PPV. Sure, I mean technically there is storyline advancement, blow offs and guys coming out strong.

But, the storyline advancement is terrible. The Kingdom/KRD shit has to stop. How long has it been going on for now? Is it that hard to give the Kingdom a clean win? I mean it's not 1985 anymore, can a heel win clean? I thought the only 2 things that were enjoyable on the show were Moose/Cedric and Castle/Young. Proper blow off and a great match. Moose is really fucking good btw, wish people would start giving him credit. And Castle/Young was perfectly booked IMO.

I like Mike Bennett. I liked him when everyone hated him. But let's be honest. How can you call someone a good "bad guy" when nobody in the crowd gives a fuck about him? I mean it is go away heat at this point, and he's just never going to be accepted by an ROH crowd. Lets be honest. People don't hate Bennett because he's being a good heel anymore. They hate him because they don't want to see him ,or the Kingdom. Their characters are stale as fuck, they don't have great matches, and the combination of the two just doesn't work. Stale Character + Bad Matches = Crowd not giving a fuck. Maria is literally the main reason for the push. She's hot and has name recognition/value.

I also don't think anyone can justify a company charging $35 for a PPV that really played out more like a episode or two of TV than a PPV. It's not a smart way of doing business. The fans feel ripped off, and with every other company charging a way cheaper price for their product, ROH has to deliver in every aspect. And they constantly don't.

[Thelone]

The product is lacking oomph overall. The booking makes sense for the most part, but Delirious chooses the driest, most boring way from A to B most of the time, which makes a lot of matches feel like they're just "wrestler A fights wrestler B because of reasons" or the good ol' "wrestling for the sake of wrestling".

Delirious also has this tendency to book feuds like the WWE does, which is "wrestler A and wrestler B are feuding, so they must be together all the time from now on". Wrestler A has a match against wrestler C ? Well wrestler B will be on commentary and/or do a run-in to cost wrestler A the match because distraction finish and MINDGAMES. Just look at the two recent undercard feuds and that's basically all you got.

I can go on about booking chickenshit heel champions over and over even though they don't draw anywhere anymore, the overuse of bullshit finishes lately, pushing people to the moon just because New Japan said so (The Kingdom, probably Elgin now) or using (i)PPV time to build up TV or the next (i)PPV when you're charging $25/$35 for them (DBD was basically a paid ad for this show and the current set of TV tapings).

[Tim]

Not to make this a PWG thread, but seriously, how can I justify paying $35 for this show when I can and will pay $45 for all three nights of BOLA on DVD? I already know BOLA will have better talent and better matches. If ROH is gonna charge $35 they really need to blow everyone away, because there are other promotions out there I would rather support if I don't believe in their product.

[187_Joeism]

I understand if you don´t like the booking, but do you think the in ring was bad?

[DBSommer]

Jay vs Cole and Lethal vs Jay, i don´t think he is an excellent booker by any means, but he is not bad either.

They need to book Jay Lethal like Nigel[/quote]

They need to have him badly overstay his welcome with the belt while killing all the greater momentum other people have until they can't get it back (see, Tyler Black) ? Or do you mean he needs to lariatgasm them to death until his arms fall off?

[Pegasus]

Delirious has done an fine job overall. But yeah he's made some pretty shitty mistakes, but I don't think he should step down because for one shitty decision he's made two good ones in it's place.

[DBSommer]

What I would have done is less run ins. Truth interferes, Cole comes out, stops him and then five mins later, screws O'reilly.

Its not perfect, but sell it like Cole is really excited for his friend and then he realizes he's gonna be champ and not him and snaps.

I'd buy the "snaps out of jealousy in the heat of the moment" a lot easier than the "this was our evil plan all along, please don't think about it too hard because it won't hold up" explanation we're going to get.

Probably the best bet would be to admit he was having troubles with the Kingdom and they weren't on the same page, but when he aligned himself with 'the ever yammering Fish'' it got on his nerves, then being alongside Kyle made him remember what a useless douchebag he always was, and worst of all, Kyle thought he could steal the spotlight from Adam Cole by being bigger than him and being world champ. So Cole talked it over and went back to his proper role as 'king' of the Kingdom, and punished Kyle for ever thinking he could ever be anything other than 'that loser that used to be Adam Cole's partner'.

But as others have said it'll probably be some plan from the beginning or whatnot.

[DBSommer]

Not to make this a PWG thread, but seriously, how can I justify paying $35 for this show when I can and will pay $45 for all three nights of BOLA on DVD? I already know BOLA will have better talent and better matches. If ROH is gonna charge $35 they really need to blow everyone away, because there are other promotions out there I would rather support if I don't believe in their product.

True. If it's only matches and talent than it's the place to go. It's the advantage when you have maybe one on going storyline and 12 cards a year running out of the same firehall you always do. It's a simplistic formula that works because it's a niche and due to hype, everyone actually busts their asses on the show. Which in some ways sucks when they work other places and don't perform at that level. Part of it is of course the guys can't wrestle at that level constantly or they'd break down, but at the same time if you're paying for someone to perform and he's not giving it a 100% for you the way he is in PWG, then you're getting partially shafted.

So no, no one anywhere s ever going to have the match level of PWG if the guys don't go all out like they do in PWG, and you can't make them do it. That's not ROH's fault. If you have a limited budget and that's what you care about then of course that's what you should be doing.

[Lazyking]

Not to make this a PWG thread, but seriously, how can I justify paying $35 for this show when I can and will pay $45 for all three nights of BOLA on DVD? I already know BOLA will have better talent and better matches. If ROH is gonna charge $35 they really need to blow everyone away, because there are other promotions out there I would rather support if I don't believe in their product.

True. If it's only matches and talent than it's the place to go. It's the advantage when you have maybe one on going storyline and 12 cards a year running out of the same firehall you always do. It's a simplistic formula that works because it's a niche and due to hype, everyone actually busts their asses on the show. Which in some ways sucks when they work other places and don't perform at that level. Part of it is of course the guys can't wrestle at that level constantly or they'd break down, but at the same time if you're paying for someone to perform and he's not giving it a 100% for you the way he is in PWG, then you're getting partially shafted.

So no, no one anywhere s ever going to have the match level of PWG if the guys don't go all out like they do in PWG, and you can't make them do it. That's not ROH's fault. If you have a limited budget and that's what you care about then of course that's what you should be doing.

I would argue that the talent are giving their all for ROH, its just that the show is now time managed ..(somewhat badly) and not asked to have a PWG style match especially under Delirious booking with all the interference in multiple matches not just the main event. This isn't 2005 ROH or a PWG show where just go out there and do whatever you want.

That can be a good thing and a bad thing.. Until the current booking effects ROH business negatively though, I don't see a change coming.

[Thelone]

I think it was more about how ridiculous the prices are for ROH shows in general. $15 for inconsequential house shows, $20 for bigger house shows and iPPVs, and $35 for regular PPVs is so ludicrously upmarket nowadays that it's becoming harder and harder to justify even if you're a fan, especially with cheaper and sometimes better options out there.

Just for comparison, you can buy for $35 :

- Three months of the WWE Network
- Four months of NJPW World
- Almost five months of Demand PROGRESS
- Almost six months of ICW On Demand
- The latest two Evolve shows
- Three shows on SMV
- Two (PWG) or three shows on Highspots

[jordidebaas]

In one PPV, Delirious has came out giving people reasons to watch the TV show to see how this all transpires and hopefully all of them or at least some will end at Final Battle, see: Cole vs. Briscoe from last year.

So the 5-10K people that bought the PPV that already watch the TV show every week will now be watching the TV show every week as a result of the 40$ they spent on the PPV? Well, that sure's nice. Though I'd personally try and switch that around, and attempt to get the few hundred thousands that watch the TV show every week to spend 40$ on the next PPV, seems to me that that would be a better way to run your bussiness.

As for the Kingdom, they're not bad wrestlers by any means, and they've put on quite a few good showings. They're main problem is just that they've got a gimmick that they probably think personally is hilarious, and I imagine they're having a lot of fun together coming up with all their smarky references, they just need to realize now that the crowd doesn't give a fuck about those, and try doing some stuff that people actually react to.

As for Delirious, he's not a bad booker I think, as people have said earlier, his long-term booking is very good, and as of late, he's really given everyone at least one story/direction, so almost nobody is really out there just having matches anymore, which used to be people's main problem with him, so that's a great improvement. However, I also agree that there's way too many interferences and all the feuds/rematches seem to be built up quite similarly. Now, you could say, he's not bad, why fire him? But this is not just some random not so important job where you can settle for okay. If ROH is trying to become/becoming the no. 2 promotion in North America, they can't settle for a booker that does just a fine job, so the 'he's not bad' argument is not an argument at all really. However, it would be a really big risk to just throw the book in someone else's hands, and just tell him to have some fun with it. Personally, I wouldn't let him go yet, but giving him a full-time assistant that can tone him down on the fuck finishes just a little bit and help him out with diversifying the feuds in the midcard some more would go a long way already. Also, he needs to realize that if you're one of the top wrestling companies in the world, Brutal Bob vs. Cheeseburger just isn't going to cut it anymore, especially not on TV.

As for the PPV finish, it needed Jay Diesel. Jay Diesel would've fixed everything.

[187_Joeism]

They can´t put the price they want for the PPV, it´s something the PPV company has to agree, ROH not have full control over the price.

[Tim]

I get that PWG is a niche product, and I'm not expecting ROH to be a PWG clone. When I buy PWG DVD's or attend show I know what I'm paying for and know I'm getting my money's worth. I have faith that Super Dragon and Excalibur will put on good to great shows for the most part. Can you say the same about Delirious? Do you have faith in his booking? Or believe he can consistantly put on good shows? I don't, and that makes it tough to justify spending $35 when I'm not 100% sure I'm getting my money's worth. And you can call me a "typical jaded indy mark", and that's fine, but is a WWE fan who is acustomed to spending $9.99 on the WWE network going to spend $35 on an impulse? Or is someone who has heard of ROH but never seen it going to spend that much on a promotion they have never watched? And if they do after last night's PPV ended would they come back?

[Robareid]

Delirious' booking seems to be simple enough, there is a beginning, a middle and an end.

The problem is when the majority of this PPV was beginnings and middles. When you're paying $35 for a PPV it should be the climax of storylines, not the starts. That's what your TV is for, or even a midcard PPV match, but not your main event.

You said that everybody watching the PPV now has a reason to watch the TV, and that's the exact problem. The PPV shouldn't be building the TV, the TV should be building the PPV.

[mkpunk]

The Kingdom is having a great year, i think it´s stubborn to not give them credit at this point.

Cole angle was well played because he never attacked The Kingdom and was a good surprise here, i was not a fan of all the shenanigans during the Maint Event but the turn itself was good done IMO.

Heels are always going to cheat, i don´t understand the obssesion with clean finishes when the heel is winning, it´s how wrestling work you are the bad guy you don´t care about how you win.

Good angles booked by Delirious you have Jay vs Cole and Lethal vs Jay, i don´t think he is an excellent booker by any means, but he is not bad either.

The clean finish is needed when the heel is over-exposed with cheap wins. Lethal isn't exactly there yet but PPVs shouldn't exactly have them in the main event especially when it is on regular PPV. iPPV is a bit different.

[Robareid]

They can´t put the price they want for the PPV, it´s something the PPV company has to agree, ROH not have full control over the price.

However they do know the price of the PPV, and they should realise that using ASE simply as a vehicle to build Final Battle isn't a good decision. You can kind of get away with doing that for the iPPVs, if the ASE show was cut and pasted into Glory By Honor and that ended up on iPPV I wouldn't have had too much of a problem, but the full PPVs at their price really should feel like big shows and not simply a build for a really big show.

Somebody mentioned to me on twitter that ROH is now booking in six-month blocks, peaking twice a year at Final Battle and Best in the World, and that's where you're going to get the clean main event finishes that are the climaxes of stories. That seems like it's bearing true with Elgin beats Cole, Briscoe gets definitive win over Cole (meant to be Cole winning) and then Lethal gets clean title win over Briscoe. The problem is that they're running quarterly PPVs with four big shows a year all at the same price point. If ASE & the Anniversary show become yearly PPVs but are clearly lesser to BitW and Final Battle then why should I pay the same amount? Is it too much to ask to peak your shows quarterly and give me a clean main event finish? Like you can still make Final Battle and BitW your two biggest shows, but I think ASE and the Anniversary show should at least be booked at a level where it's a climax to a feud with a clean finish and not just a step on the road to a bigger show.

While typing that I think I came up with what annoyed me the most about the show. It felt like the priority here was building another show instead of making this show great, and that just left a bad taste in my mouth.

[187_Joeism]

I agree mostly with you that this was a show to build Final Battle but in the clean finish part i have to disagree, to each their own but i think that if you have a heel champion the clean finish it´s not necesary. I mean, Lethal shouldn´t care how he is winning.

The only way we have a clean finish was with Kyle winning, i don´t think that was a right decision right now. Lethal winning clean here would burry Kyle so that´s also a bad decision, so i think the Main Event was booked in the best posible way.

The problem is that lately we are having too much dirty finishes and that hurt the booking here (Also to me), if leading to the show to have matches with a clean finish and do the dirty finish here i think the response would be better, people would be mad (Like you are suposed to because that was the intention) but not like this.

[jordidebaas]

I agree mostly with you that this was a show to build Final Battle but in the clean finish part i have to disagree, to each their own but i think that if you have a heel champion the clean finish it´s not necesary. I mean, Lethal shouldn´t care how he is winning.

Wrestlers in kayfabe shouldn't care if they have good matches or not, but that's not an argument to start having bad matches either.

[Robareid]

The "it was the best option with the match booked" is such a dud. You chose which matches to book, if you book yourself into a corner with only a shitty route out that doesn't make the shitty route okay. You book this shit!