Official Reload Tour 2015 Thread

[Burnside]

In the Defy or Deny match, why, logically, would the other three guys not immediately gang up on Lethal and eliminate him first? They'd guarantee that one of them would get a title shot and none of them would be locked out.

[supersonic]

The only issue I have with the ACH/Sydal Five Match Series is that there's nothing really on the line. They could at least award the winner a shot at Jay Lethal for either the World Title or the World TV Title.

Loser forced to sign with TNA.

[Marketh.]

In the Defy or Deny match, why, logically, would the other three guys not immediately gang up on Lethal and eliminate him first? They'd guarantee that one of them would get a title shot and none of them would be locked out.

The problem with Defy or Deny is that yet again they haven't fully explained the stip when announcing the match. This is especially a problem when, if I recall, it's changed slightly over the years.

In this case, it isn't clear whether it's everyone Lethal eliminates that's Denied, or just the last man. Also, if Lethal is eliminated before the end of the match, does that person get a title shot or is it only if they win the whole match?

[Northwoods_Nightmare]

Young Bucks vs Future Shock sounds awesome, but Fish vs Strong sounds equally as good!
I always like the Defy or Deny match idea, but I agree the stip has always been confusingly vague.

[jordidebaas]

In the Defy or Deny match, why, logically, would the other three guys not immediately gang up on Lethal and eliminate him first? They'd guarantee that one of them would get a title shot and none of them would be locked out.

The problem with Defy or Deny is that yet again they haven't fully explained the stip when announcing the match. This is especially a problem when, if I recall, it's changed slightly over the years.

In this case, it isn't clear whether it's everyone Lethal eliminates that's Denied, or just the last man. Also, if Lethal is eliminated before the end of the match, does that person get a title shot or is it only if they win the whole match?

The person that wins the entire match gets a title shot, unless Lethal wins, in which case the last person eliminated is banned from getting a shot.

The biggest problem I have with the match, is that kayfabe-wise, it doesn't really make sense, as the runner-up could pin two people before he is eliminated by the champ, and be banned from getting a title shot, whereas the two men that he eliminated can still get one, despite having done way worse result-wise.
Also, the teaming up on the champ strategy would seem like a pretty smart thing to do in most cases.

[Big Red Machine]

The only issue I have with the ACH/Sydal Five Match Series is that there's nothing really on the line. They could at least award the winner a shot at Jay Lethal for either the World Title or the World TV Title.

Loser forced to sign with TNA.

You go too far, sir. No one deserves to have their career ended prematurely like that.

[Big Red Machine]

In the Defy or Deny match, why, logically, would the other three guys not immediately gang up on Lethal and eliminate him first? They'd guarantee that one of them would get a title shot and none of them would be locked out.

The problem with Defy or Deny is that yet again they haven't fully explained the stip when announcing the match. This is especially a problem when, if I recall, it's changed slightly over the years.

In this case, it isn't clear whether it's everyone Lethal eliminates that's Denied, or just the last man. Also, if Lethal is eliminated before the end of the match, does that person get a title shot or is it only if they win the whole match?

The person that wins the entire match gets a title shot, unless Lethal wins, in which case the last person eliminated is banned from getting a shot.

The biggest problem I have with the match, is that kayfabe-wise, it doesn't really make sense, as the runner-up could pin two people before he is eliminated by the champ, and be banned from getting a title shot, whereas the two men that he eliminated can still get one, despite having done way worse result-wise.
Also, the teaming up on the champ strategy would seem like a pretty smart thing to do in most cases.

If I recall the original one correctly, the stip was that only the winner got the title match, but if the champ won, all three guys were locked out of title shots. I don't quite think the last two were announced that way, but I believe those same stips were still lived up to.
They also used to do it with three guys the champ had recently beaten, with the idea that these guys were being offered a shortcut to a title shot rather than having to climb the ladder again, but with "Deny" part being a big risk they were taking. Here they have Mark (who, in fairness, has lost to Lethal a bunch) and two guys who never feuded with him at all (I believe they each got one title shot randomly that they didn't really earn in the first place). It's just lazy booking to try to come up with main events that feel important even though they won't be. ACH and Sydal would actually be two perfect guys to fit into this match based on their history with Lethal but of course we can't have that because they need to do this totally random best of five gimmick with each other on BOTH shows that weekend.

[Burnside]

The rules should be that any of the three challengers who wins the entire match gets a title shot, and any/all of the three challengers who lose (to anybody) are banned from a future shot. It should have nothing to do with who Lethal pins or who pins Lethal - that's the part that makes the stips nonsensical.

The way the stips are currently explained, the other three guys are idiots if they don't all immediately gang up on and eliminate Lethal, because the only way you face any negative consequences in this match is if Lethal beats you, and perhaps only if he beats you last. So if the other three guys get rid of him first they having nothing to lose.

It's like they're pretty much telling you that this 4-way elimination match will come down to Lethal vs somebody, when in kayfabe terms there should be no way to know that - Lethal could be the first guy out.

Incidentally, this match probably means that Lethal's dropping the TV title soon. Delirious usually books a Defy or Deny match 1-2 months before the champion drops the belt.

[DBSommer]

Probably the most workable solution would be:

Whoever pins the champ gets the shot.

Whoever gets pinned by the champ never gets a shot.

The first ensures that all 3 guys don't just beat the hell out of the champ until he's eliminated (which as others point out it would mean there's a 0% chance of being 'denied' ), since only the guy eliminating him gets the shot. Also it lends itself to the idea that if someone wants the shot, he needs to take out the other two to keep them from getting the pin/preventing him from getting the pin. Which means most of the time the champ will be one of the last two standing, but it's not a guarentee. Like any scramble match, someone can sneak a pin in if the others are distracted/injured.

Considering the roster isn't that deep, I'd be reluctant to have any stip that guarentees 2-3 people will never get a title shot. Not to say it can't happen (and as someone mentioned, D or D usually happen near the end of a reign anyway), just that it isn't a guarenteed outcome. I'm pretty sure last year Cole got pins on the last two guys to lock them out (Jacobs and Lethal maybe).

Come to think of it, hasn't there been 3 with the champ winning each time anyway?

[Burnside]

The champ has won every Defy or Deny to date. It was clear during the last one that Kevin Kelly didn't really know what the stips were when he was calling the match. Very TNA-esque.

[DXvsNWO1994]

Because reasons...

@ringofhonor
Making a special appearance this Sat in Atlanta for @ringofhonor @DDPYoga guru @bWoStevie Richards. Get your tix now

[monster mafia]

52 min
stevierichards : Excited to be invited by @ringofhonor their show this Saturday for an autograph session. Maybe @mattsydal can give me workout tips too

[TYFDK]

He was backstage at the last one. Harmless appearance, like Bushwhacker Luke from this past weekend.

[Marketh.]

So I guess they're just booking guys who look vaguely like Cliff Compton too now, huh?

[AssShooter]

I wonder if he is the former WWE superstar Kevin Kelly was talking about in his view from ringside...

[DBSommer]

Maybe they'll pick up that angle Gabe was going to use him for back in the day that never materialzed.

Besides, it's not like he's actually being booked like in Chikara.

[Big Red Machine]

Maybe they'll pick up that angle Gabe was going to use him for back in the day that never materialzed.

Wouldn't that require CM Punk?

[Burnside]

Hoping for series of backstage vignettes where he does his Dr. Stevie gimmick from TNA and analyzes various ROH guys including the Briscoes, Castle, and of course Bloodbound Warriors.

[Big Red Machine]

Hoping for series of backstage vignettes where he does his Dr. Stevie gimmick from TNA and analyzes various ROH guys including the Briscoes, Castle, and of course Bloodbound Warriors.

This would actually be pretty fantastic.

[JTCole]

I'll be at the Atlanta show tonight, hope it's good. Last February was pretty fantastic overall.