ROHWorld.com Forum

Great numbers this year for the "no buzz" ROH (just joking):

The Observer is a terrible source of ROH attendances.

I've literally seen no one ever dispute the idea ROH hasn't had an uptick in live business - with increased ticket pricing too.

rovert1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm The Observer is a terrible source of ROH attendances.

I've literally seen no one ever dispute the idea ROH hasn't had an uptick in live business - with increased ticket pricing too.

Well, how about you provide some other sources? Some alternative data?

rovert1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm I've literally seen no one ever dispute the idea ROH hasn't had an uptick in live business - with increased ticket pricing too.

What does this mean? Because the way it's written literally with the the double negatives you're saying that there's a thought that ROH has NOT had an uptick in business...and that nobody has disputed that (because I think a lot of people would)? But the note about increased ticket prices makes it sound like you're saying the opposite...but then the shot at the Observer would indicate the opposite of that. Seems like you're trying to make a point here but I honestly can't see what it is.

Have you not met rovert? That's sort of his thing.

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill imo. All he said was that the Observer numbers aren't reliable. Considering that it looks like the majority of whatever ROH news Meltzer has seems to come straight from Delirious, I don't think that should be considered a controversial statement.

Yeesh, still anti-rovert on this board, huh?

Attendance counts are never reliable because no one can do them right. Meltzer has always just gone by word of the reporter. The majority of wrestling shows don't have legitimate attendance counts.

Still, assuming that the tolerance of error is the same between 2016 and 2017, we can at least make out a proportionality of growth. Figuring for Final Battle and the tapings, I'm sure the total should be closer to 50,000(ish) attendees per 40 shows compared to 2016's 40,300(ish) attendees per 45 shows.

Average 2017 show: 1,250 attendees (which admittedly sounds a little heavy)
Average 2016 show: 895 attendees

I don't think anyone besides TDS is "anti-rovert" here but he did just burst into this thread, attack a source without providing reasoning or an alternative, spit out a word salad triple negative that doesn't make any sense, then leave. Not exactly showing himself in the best way, even if he has proven to be a reliable insider in the past.

famicommander wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:42 am I don't think anyone besides TDS is "anti-rovert" here but he did just burst into this thread, attack a source without providing reasoning or an alternative, spit out a word salad triple negative that doesn't make any sense, then leave. Not exactly showing himself in the best way, even if he has proven to be a reliable insider in the past.

I take your word in good faith, but yes this board tends to be pretty caustic whenever rovert shows any sentiment that doesn't put ROH in a positive light. The dogpiling after that two-sentence post seemed to prove that further. I thought rovert's point was pretty clear.

To be clear, I've messaged him in the past about short-burst, unspecific posts in the past. His response to possibly being aggressive was that this board was dishing out falsities about him while he wasn't even a user here--which I think makes sense. I'm trying to do better at addressing that opposition.

dont try guys...dont try.

So we're all supposed to tiptoe around rovert's ego regardless of how he is to the rest of us?

I may be a jerk on occasion, but you'll never see me crying about how being a jerk makes others react to me. If he can't handle "opposition" I suggest he either grow thicker skin or modify the way he engages with other users. His reputation preceded his arrival here -- pretty much anywhere on the internet, if you mention his name you'll get two reactions -- that he's a jerk and that he's usually correct about factual matters. But the two don't have anything to do with one another.

How about news on the taping?

Also, doesn't TDS make stuff up that Meltzer reports?

TheROHbot wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:45 am How about news on the taping?

Also, doesn't TDS make stuff up that Meltzer reports?

I can safely say TDS, while he might be hostile in response to things you might disagree with, has never falsified any facts to get his point across.

famicommander wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:28 am So we're all supposed to tiptoe around rovert's ego regardless of how he is to the rest of us?

I may be a jerk on occasion, but you'll never see me crying about how being a jerk makes others react to me. If he can't handle "opposition" I suggest he either grow thicker skin or modify the way he engages with other users. His reputation preceded his arrival here -- pretty much anywhere on the internet, if you mention his name you'll get two reactions -- that he's a jerk and that he's usually correct about factual matters. But the two don't have anything to do with one another.

I don't know if I would say to tiptoe but just take into account that rovert gets flack en masse throughout the wrestling spheres on the internet. It's really exhausting to butt up against all that noise. From what I've seen, the reaction against him tends to be more toxic than rovert's actual voice. Usually just the intimation of "rovert" as some concept is enough to launch its own vector of discourse and flamewars abound and whole pages of back-and-forth are written about someone who barely peeps their head in on this site.

Again, I've written messages to him about communication in the past. You can definitely still be vigilant. Tools like reporting posts and sending private messages (to me, DXvsNWO, and cgstong) are necessary to keep this place, like, comfortable to be in.

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:57 am

TheROHbot wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:45 am How about news on the taping?

Also, doesn't TDS make stuff up that Meltzer reports?

I can safely say TDS, while he might be hostile in response to things you might disagree with, has never falsified any facts to get his point across.

Well . . . I . . . uh, it's actually happened before :/ viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4998&p=144622

But I don't think TDS has done it since. Just, grain of salt and all that. What's done is done. Let's move on.

Wilson wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:09 am

Mr. Mojo Risin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:57 am

TheROHbot wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:45 am How about news on the taping?

Also, doesn't TDS make stuff up that Meltzer reports?

I can safely say TDS, while he might be hostile in response to things you might disagree with, has never falsified any facts to get his point across.

Well . . . I . . . uh, it's actually happened before :/ viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4998&p=144622

But I don't think TDS has done it since. Just, grain of salt and all that. What's done is done. Let's move on.

I used to post here as syxxpakk. One time he made a post of news he claimed came from the Observer/Meltzer, ended up all being lies he made up. It was years ago, though. I get your point about moving on.

Wilson wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:30 am Yeesh, still anti-rovert on this board, huh?

Attendance counts are never reliable because no one can do them right. Meltzer has always just gone by word of the reporter. The majority of wrestling shows don't have legitimate attendance counts.

Still, assuming that the tolerance of error is the same between 2016 and 2017, we can at least make out a proportionality of growth. Figuring for Final Battle and the tapings, I'm sure the total should be closer to 50,000(ish) attendees per 40 shows compared to 2016's 40,300(ish) attendees per 45 shows.

Average 2017 show: 1,250 attendees (which admittedly sounds a little heavy)
Average 2016 show: 895 attendees

1,250 sounds plausible to me. Don't forget that SCOH was an entire order of magnitude higher than anything they've done before (except for some reports about the first ROH/NJPW show at Hammerstein), and this year didn't have anything totally atrocious dragging it down like the occasional trips to Florida, Rhode Island, or Carbondale have done.

famicommander wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:18 pm

rovert1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm The Observer is a terrible source of ROH attendances.

I've literally seen no one ever dispute the idea ROH hasn't had an uptick in live business - with increased ticket pricing too.

Well, how about you provide some other sources? Some alternative data?

Photographs of crowds and fans actually at the shows disputing Meltzer's numbers. As well asking wrestlers and office people.

I did it for 2016 and then got bored, proved my point and didn't want to beat a dead horse.

Also as ROH attendances have increased it has become less of an issue coming into 2017 as you don't have to overstate numbers if the show is actually sold out or near sell out.

The Dragon Saga wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:48 am Have you not met rovert? That's sort of his thing.

No, it isn't.

Attendance figures are very hard to be fully accurate on. But the attendance figures I sourced showed Meltzer's figures to be upwards of 250 people or so overstated.

Meltzer's ROH reporting is pretty suspect across the board. You won't hear or read criticism of Delirious or of Joe Koff's increased involvement in angles or if you send a show recap remotely critical of the Young Bucks Meltzer won't run it.

From this week's Observer. Ask people who attended OTT Being The Elite about this statement or watch the VOD yourself and make up your own mind:

In Dublin on 12/9, Tyler Bate missed the show due to an injury. Cody won a three-way over Flip Gordon and Rey Fenix. This was one of those matches where we got one report it was fantastic and another saying the opposite and another giving it ****1/4, which is also what Trent Seven & Pete Dunne’s 2 on 3 win over Curtis Murray & Scotty Davis & Michael May of Ireland got. Young Bucks & Scurll beat Dalton Castle & The Boys in a comedy match. I was told the crowd loved the comedy and it was focused in that direction. In the post-show promo, Cody said that they were going to run a 10,000 seat show either on the East Coast or West Coast of the U.S., or perhaps in Dublin, which got a big pop. He teased the idea of wrestling Bryan Danielson and said they were down to four possible cities, three in the U.S. and Dublin.

Again I don't discount the idea that ROH's live business is strongly up year on year. Just Meltzer's isn't the greatest source for attendance figures as he gets them from ROH office.

Photographs of crowds and fans actually at the shows disputing Meltzer's numbers. As well asking wrestlers and office people.

Sorry, but you are disputing one source due to it being sketchy, but believing photographs of crowds and fans? I've been to around 20 pro wrestling shows in my life. I couldn't accurately tell you the crowd size for any of them. Are these fans you give your trust to sitting there and counting the crowd? Why are they more trustworthy than the ROH office? Photographs? Who is taking a total crowd shot photo and then getting said total crowd shot photos to you? What wrestlers did you ask? Again, how are they more reliable than the company? Are these wrestlers directly involved with ticket counting? Are they standing in the corner in a tag match counting the people there just to say "My employer is lying to Meltzer."

I also love that in this quote you say "As well asking wrestlers AND OFFICE PEOPLE" (emphasis mine) YET in a post shortly after say "Meltzer isn't the greatest source for attendance figures as he gets them FROM ROH OFFICE."

So you get the accurate numbers from office people but Meltzer gets lied to by office people?

Numbers are obviously up this year. Crowds from May on have been pretty damn good overall. I don't see how it would behoove the ROH office to lie about attendance by 200 more. It's not like averaging 200 more on an indy show will win over new fans, or help sell more tickets. "ROH got 1200 fans last time, we should go to the next show. Wait, it was only 1000 fans. Screw that, we're staying home."

A couple hundred more fans as a lie told by the ROH office doesn't do anything positive for the promotion, so what would be the point. This isn't saying 93173 when only 78,000 plus were there. It's adding a couple hundred to an indy show. Why would they lie?

The overarching point of my post? Your numbers are no more accurate than the numbers given to Dave Meltzer. So why waste time out of your life disputing that?