Random ROH Thoughts Thread

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AlexROH
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by AlexROH »

Big Red Machine wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:06 pm
AlexROH wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:50 am Cody retained his Title last Night in London in what described as a great match with dramatic last minutes and beliveable false finishes.

Match will be available on ROH website, or At least that what they said
This is in RevPro, right?
Yes, RPW's Uprising 2017.
famicommander
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by famicommander »

From the article on the front page, I hadn't realized how young Mandy Leon is. It feels like she's been around forever but she's only 25 years old. I had figured she was in her early 30s. She still has quite a bit of development ahead of her if she's willing to keep working at it.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by TYFDK »

AlexROH wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:26 am
Big Red Machine wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:06 pm
AlexROH wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:50 am Cody retained his Title last Night in London in what described as a great match with dramatic last minutes and beliveable false finishes.

Match will be available on ROH website, or At least that what they said
This is in RevPro, right?
Yes, RPW's Uprising 2017.
Saw a fan video of a moment in the match that I thought was fantastic. I'll put it in a spoiler tag for those that don't want to hear about it:

SPOILERS:

. . .

At one point, Marty Scurll came in with umbrella in hand to attack Lethal, who along with Cody was knocked out in the ring, while the ref is down, and while he's waiting for Lethal to get up...he turns around as if he's going to attack Cody. The crowd goes wild for this, and it was terrific story telling, as Scurll knew that if Lethal won, the match at Final Battle would've turned into a 4 way match, which would've included Scurll. Ultimately he decided against it, but Cody was holding Lethal up for a Scurll umbrella attack, and then Lethal ducked and he hit Cody instead anyway, albeit accidentally. [/spoiler]
Last edited by Wilson on Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: spoiler function is currently broken, y'all
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AlexROH
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

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AlexROH wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:50 am Cody retained his Title last Night in London in what described as a great match with dramatic last minutes and beliveable false finishes.

Match will be available on ROH website, or At least that what they said
RPW has uploaded the show to his streaming service. Pretty great match. 25 minutes and good story. Cody worked as a heel and did it well, with a good limbwork to Lethal's knee. Lethal sold everything great and add a lot of drama. Final minutes with Marty, as I read, were hot. Not a classic by any means, but a strong world title match.

[ROH World Title] Cody vs Jay Lethal - RPW Uprising 2017 ⭐️⭐️⭐️3/4
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

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AlexROH wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:40 am RPW has uploaded the show to his streaming service. Pretty great match. 25 minutes and good story. Cody worked as a heel and did it well, with a good limbwork to Lethal's knee. Lethal sold everything great and add a lot of drama. Final minutes with Marty, as I read, were hot. Not a classic by any means, but a strong world title match.

[ROH World Title] Cody vs Jay Lethal - RPW Uprising 2017 ⭐️⭐️⭐️3/4
Any inkling that Cody and Lethal were purposely holding back? I've suspected they would do a Cody vs. Lethal PPV main event for a while--like, since May--and I think they might pull the trigger on it for 16 Year Anniversary.

An aside: Lethal's base skills make him a great matchup against almost anybody--especially someone that needs a strong crutch to work against like Cody. That blandness is an odd thing to glorify but it's a skill that Eddie Edwards and Christopher Daniels (for fifteen years) have both put to great effect. ROH has got more of that in stock than standout workers these days.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by ROHfan2002 »

For those who still pine for an ROH of ten years ago over the SBG ROH, I think I have a good example of what 2005 ROH in 2017 would look like. Evolve 97. 200 people in a building that looks to hold twice that, watching a few great workers and many good to poor. A promotion that still looks small time in every aspect, and holds two shows a month. Heck, it's even got the same booker as 2005 ROH.

I myself prefer having a strong ROH with a pretty good live touring aspect, drawing healthy crowds, with a weekly TV show shown across the country in syndication, and PPV events purchased by more than 1500 diehards.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by maxx_powerz »

I mean, I do think there are a lot of relatively simple booking mistakes made that could improve the product, and I don't think all the BS finishes are necessary, and more a sign of lazy booking. But I also think there are decades worth of proof that you can't be a mainstream wrestling promotion and be wrestling intensive at the same time. Maybe under the right set of circumstances it would be possible, but it sure seems like a big dose of ga-ga is a requirement for the "casual" fan.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

ROHfan2002 wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:57 pm For those who still pine for an ROH of ten years ago over the SBG ROH, I think I have a good example of what 2005 ROH in 2017 would look like. Evolve 97. 200 people in a building that looks to hold twice that, watching a few great workers and many good to poor. A promotion that still looks small time in every aspect, and holds two shows a month. Heck, it's even got the same booker as 2005 ROH.

I myself prefer having a strong ROH with a pretty good live touring aspect, drawing healthy crowds, with a weekly TV show shown across the country in syndication, and PPV events purchased by more than 1500 diehards.
The problem with this claim is that aside from maybe that one time in Carbondale and maybe one or two of the Cornette shows in first-time markets, ROH has regularly been drawing well over 200 people since before 2005. And people need to understand that we're not calling for a return to 2005. 2011 would even be nice. You people seem to be under the impression that we want ROH to be this caricature of EVOLVE you guys have in your heads (which, by the way, was the same caricature of ROH that mainstream fans have had for most of ROH's existence- until they actually watched some ROH and suddenly they liked it) where you think there are no storylines whatsoever and every match is forty minutes of mat-work. We just want the product to take itself seriously, the storylines to be logical, and an emphasis on clean finishes. Is that too much to ask? What about that will possibly scare off a casual fan?
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

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Agreed with above. Also, the Venn diagram of people who don't want current ROH in-ring compared to ROH in 2005 and those who compare current ROH attendance to Evolve's might as well be a geometric circle.
maxx_powerz wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:00 pm I mean, I do think there are a lot of relatively simple booking mistakes made that could improve the product, and I don't think all the BS finishes are necessary, and more a sign of lazy booking. But I also think there are decades worth of proof that you can't be a mainstream wrestling promotion and be wrestling intensive at the same time. Maybe under the right set of circumstances it would be possible, but it sure seems like a big dose of ga-ga is a requirement for the "casual" fan.
New Japan as the second largest promotion doesn't fit the bill for you? If only centering on the US, ECW promoted to defy the mainstream ad nasuem. ECW's largest attendance nearly double ROH's largest. So, no, there are not decades worth of proof that wrestling promotions only succeed by being market-tested drivel.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by famicommander »

You can't really call ECW a successful business endeavor, though. A trendsetter, a fantastic product, and my personal favorite promotion but they were on WWF life support towards the end.

It doesn't really matter how many people you can draw if you're losing your ass while you do it.

To be clear, I do think ROH needs better matches specifically in the main events. Up and down the card I think the in-ring product is largely great, but we aren't seeing the all-time classic matches we are used to seeing come out of ROH main events.

If Cody (or Castle, or whomever is main eventing) could deliver a few epic performances on big cards I think it would really go a long way.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by dhads7161 »

What are the odds Ibushi and not Dalton is the next ROH World Champion?
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by TYFDK »

https://www.si.com/wrestling/2017/12/13 ... -wrestling

Above features a small interview with Mark Cuban, who owns or partially owns AXS TV, formerly HDNet. In it, he says something which really has made me think all day:
“We’re looking to expand it on Friday nights,” Cuban said in an exclusive interview with Sports Illustrated. “We want to do more live, as opposed to the delay, and we’re talking to them about special events.”
It's made me think that ROH would be CRAZY not to try to get in on this, and have a night or two of the next Global Wars or War of the Worlds tours be shown LIVE on AXS. It makes perfect sense, will help both ROH and New Japan, give AXS the live show they want. Of course I'll be happy if it's only New Japan that gets it, but I really hope ROH is doing what they can to have one of their co-promoted tours shown on TV.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

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TYFDK wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:46 pm https://www.si.com/wrestling/2017/12/13 ... -wrestling

Above features a small interview with Mark Cuban, who owns or partially owns AXS TV, formerly HDNet. In it, he says something which really has made me think all day:
“We’re looking to expand it on Friday nights,” Cuban said in an exclusive interview with Sports Illustrated. “We want to do more live, as opposed to the delay, and we’re talking to them about special events.”
It's made me think that ROH would be CRAZY not to try to get in on this, and have a night or two of the next Global Wars or War of the Worlds tours be shown LIVE on AXS. It makes perfect sense, will help both ROH and New Japan, give AXS the live show they want. Of course I'll be happy if it's only New Japan that gets it, but I really hope ROH is doing what they can to have one of their co-promoted tours shown on TV.
Why should ROH do a live show on TV when they can earn a lot of money with iPPV? I dont see it as a good move.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

AlexROH wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:21 am
TYFDK wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:46 pm https://www.si.com/wrestling/2017/12/13 ... -wrestling

Above features a small interview with Mark Cuban, who owns or partially owns AXS TV, formerly HDNet. In it, he says something which really has made me think all day:
“We’re looking to expand it on Friday nights,” Cuban said in an exclusive interview with Sports Illustrated. “We want to do more live, as opposed to the delay, and we’re talking to them about special events.”
It's made me think that ROH would be CRAZY not to try to get in on this, and have a night or two of the next Global Wars or War of the Worlds tours be shown LIVE on AXS. It makes perfect sense, will help both ROH and New Japan, give AXS the live show they want. Of course I'll be happy if it's only New Japan that gets it, but I really hope ROH is doing what they can to have one of their co-promoted tours shown on TV.
Why should ROH do a live show on TV when they can earn a lot of money with iPPV? I dont see it as a good move.
Agreed about replacing the PPVs or iPPVs with this, but I think a monthly or quarterly thing a la cotc or SNME would certainly be a benefit to ROH (especially of they get paid something for rights fees).
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

dhads7161 wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:48 pm What are the odds Ibushi and not Dalton is the next ROH World Champion?
IMO very low. I don't necessarily think Dalton is winning the belt (at least not at Final Battle), but I don't think they'll put it on Kota.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine »

famicommander wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:32 pm You can't really call ECW a successful business endeavor, though. A trendsetter, a fantastic product, and my personal favorite promotion but they were on WWF life support towards the end.

It doesn't really matter how many people you can draw if you're losing your ass while you do it.
Right. But the question is how much of that was due to either out-and-out mistakes Paul E. made financially or to situations that he was forced into as a result of the time period (like giving out so many big money exclusive contracts due to both WWF and WCW going through a boom period and being hungry for talent to fight their wrestling war). ROH is in a place where they don't have to pay for TV, and I'd be astounded if anyone in ROH had a contract for as much money as Heyman had to pay Shane Douglas or RVD. And rather than having two bigger promotions in the US/Canada alone trying to poach their talent, ROH is the #2 in the US/Canada, and are close allies with the #2 worldwide promotion, as well as the top promotion in Mexico, who are the world #3 or #4, depending on where you see ROH in contrast to CMLL.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Wilson »

What ultimately killed ECW was TNN not believing in them.

My original comment was in response to the fiction of mainstream wrestling seeking to not being wrestling intensive (which I also read as lackluster product). I brought up ECW as a secondary point, but we can look at the success of New Japan in the US alone and see that that correlation is false.

Also, I am tired of reading ROH-coddled responses to the company's booking mediocrity. While ROH's growth seems certain to continue, I think it's preposterous to frame in any way that they're some runaway success. ROH right now is pretty much by no metric above where TNA was its peak, if the latter would even be called a success by anybody.

What I'm really getting at is to demand more from influential executives that time and time again squander talent and resources.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

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Big Red Machine wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:36 am
AlexROH wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:21 am
TYFDK wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:46 pm https://www.si.com/wrestling/2017/12/13 ... -wrestling

Above features a small interview with Mark Cuban, who owns or partially owns AXS TV, formerly HDNet. In it, he says something which really has made me think all day:



It's made me think that ROH would be CRAZY not to try to get in on this, and have a night or two of the next Global Wars or War of the Worlds tours be shown LIVE on AXS. It makes perfect sense, will help both ROH and New Japan, give AXS the live show they want. Of course I'll be happy if it's only New Japan that gets it, but I really hope ROH is doing what they can to have one of their co-promoted tours shown on TV.
Why should ROH do a live show on TV when they can earn a lot of money with iPPV? I dont see it as a good move.
Agreed about replacing the PPVs or iPPVs with this, but I think a monthly or quarterly thing a la cotc or SNME would certainly be a benefit to ROH (especially of they get paid something for rights fees).
Yeah. Some kind of 2-hour ROH TV special live would be cool, but PPVs for free? No thank you.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by famicommander »

Big Red Machine wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:56 am
famicommander wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:32 pm You can't really call ECW a successful business endeavor, though. A trendsetter, a fantastic product, and my personal favorite promotion but they were on WWF life support towards the end.

It doesn't really matter how many people you can draw if you're losing your ass while you do it.
Right. But the question is how much of that was due to either out-and-out mistakes Paul E. made financially or to situations that he was forced into as a result of the time period (like giving out so many big money exclusive contracts due to both WWF and WCW going through a boom period and being hungry for talent to fight their wrestling war). ROH is in a place where they don't have to pay for TV, and I'd be astounded if anyone in ROH had a contract for as much money as Heyman had to pay Shane Douglas or RVD. And rather than having two bigger promotions in the US/Canada alone trying to poach their talent, ROH is the #2 in the US/Canada, and are close allies with the #2 worldwide promotion, as well as the top promotion in Mexico, who are the world #3 or #4, depending on where you see ROH in contrast to CMLL.
I still see both CMLL and AAA as above ROH.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by TYFDK »

AlexROH wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:52 am
Big Red Machine wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:36 am
AlexROH wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:21 am

Why should ROH do a live show on TV when they can earn a lot of money with iPPV? I dont see it as a good move.
Agreed about replacing the PPVs or iPPVs with this, but I think a monthly or quarterly thing a la cotc or SNME would certainly be a benefit to ROH (especially of they get paid something for rights fees).
Yeah. Some kind of 2-hour ROH TV special live would be cool, but PPVs for free? No thank you.
That's the gist of what I mean. Clash of the Champions type deals to PROMOTE ROH, specifically PPV's.
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