Random ROH Thoughts Thread

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AlexROH
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by AlexROH » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:41 pm

ROH needs to push Hangman Page and establish him as serious mid/uppercarder. Last year he got the big singles win over Jay at DBD. After that, he was lost in the midcard, but this years, with all the departures he needs to be on a bigger spot. He has shown, this year, personality. He has defeated both Lethal and Cole and he'll beat Kazarian in some type of Street Fight. I'm not saying that he has to become a big star of something like that, but 2017 has to be his year. He has everything for being a strong heel in the Bullet Club.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by dhads7161 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:12 pm

AlexROH wrote:ROH needs to push Hangman Page and establish him as serious mid/uppercarder. Last year he got the big singles win over Jay at DBD. After that, he was lost in the midcard, but this years, with all the departures he needs to be on a bigger spot. He has shown, this year, personality. He has defeated both Lethal and Cole and he'll beat Kazarian in some type of Street Fight. I'm not saying that he has to become a big star of something like that, but 2017 has to be his year. He has everything for being a strong heel in the Bullet Club.
100% agree, Alex.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Wilson » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:13 am

With Cody, Marty, and the Young Bucks ahead of him in the booking chain, I don’t see a breakthrough opportunity anywhere in the near future. It was said last year that he’ll be B-team, fall-person for as long as he’s in the Bullet Club. I think he’s been through too much damage in ROH for that to effectively change.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:51 am

Wilson wrote:With Cody, Marty, and the Young Bucks ahead of him in the booking chain, I don’t see a breakthrough opportunity anywhere in the near future. It was said last year that he’ll be B-team, fall-person for as long as he’s in the Bullet Club. I think he’s been through too much damage in ROH for that to effectively change.
Right. Adam Page's 2016 was a lot worse than just going back to being the guy inthere to take the pinfalls after his win over Jay. It was a random babyface turn which led up to him getting his big win in a WAY too short feud vs. BJ Whitmer (which also resulted in Corino not being the first guy to get revenge on Whitmer), and after his big babyface win he did a job on PPV, then immediately turned back heel as part of the new hot heel act, only to have it immediately made clear that he was put in this group just to do jobs. Meanwhile, the first two guys he tried to murder by hanging as part of his big turn didn't really even bother to feud with him over it. The third guy he tries to hang finally does and he gets his "big win" over Jay Briscoe (not helped by the fact that last time ROH tried to push something as a big upset win it was Cheeseburger over Daniels, and Cheeseburger was still in the same spot he was before said "big" win), then he immediately goes right back to doing jobs. Even in a situation where it would make sense for him to either win or at the very least not do the job, he still did jobs. At Glory By Honor he was put in the main event with three proven ROH main eventers, just two weeks before he gets a TV Title shot... and he taps out clean to the TV Champ even though it would have made a lot more sense to either have him win or to have the other guy on his team do the job for the other guy on the other team. And all the while the cool kids in Bullet Club won't even let him stand there for their promos. Delirious' booking has made it absolutely clear that Adam Page is NOT a main eventer, but we're just supposed to believe that he is one because the commentators say a bunch of nebulous bullsh*t and point to one win that he had, expecting us to ignore the fact that he has constantly done jobs since then (and when he does win he isn't even allowed to win clean). It's like WWE when they try to tell us that it's an impressive feat for someone to beat Alicia Fox because Fox "is a former Divas Champion!" but they expect us to just ignore that she had the belt once, for a cup of coffee, many years ago, and we're just supposed to ignore the fact that she's been nothing but a jobber since then. It's that same Vince McMahon arrogance where he thinks that he doesn't have to put effort into building people up with good finishes because the he thinks the fans will just believe whatever he tells them.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by JTCole » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:08 am

All wrestling bookers are arrogant in terms of getting fans to buy stuff

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:26 am

JTCole wrote:All wrestling bookers are arrogant in terms of getting fans to buy stuff

Right, but this is a different level. This doesn't come across to me like Gabe or Quack or Cornette or whoever with the approach that "this is what I think is good so this is what we're doing." This comes across to me like "the fans are so simple-minded that they will believe whatever I tell them to believe so I don't have to put any effort into building things up." If Gabe or Quack or Cornette was going to have someone be a mentor to someone then we're actually going to be shown instances of said mentoring on screen that we can point to. If they want to elevate a guy they're going to make sure to consistently give him wins against top guys and show a progression, not give him one big win then make him a mid-carder again while insisting that every turn that he is totally at the level of the main event stars even though he loses to them every single time aside from the few occasions that he cheats to win. They use what they show us on a regular basis to illustrate the points they want to his for their stories, not create one specific instance they can point to while expecting us to ignore everything that has happened since then.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by AlexROH » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:48 am

Big Red Machine wrote:
Wilson wrote:With Cody, Marty, and the Young Bucks ahead of him in the booking chain, I don’t see a breakthrough opportunity anywhere in the near future. It was said last year that he’ll be B-team, fall-person for as long as he’s in the Bullet Club. I think he’s been through too much damage in ROH for that to effectively change.
Right. Adam Page's 2016 was a lot worse than just going back to being the guy inthere to take the pinfalls after his win over Jay. It was a random babyface turn which led up to him getting his big win in a WAY too short feud vs. BJ Whitmer (which also resulted in Corino not being the first guy to get revenge on Whitmer), and after his big babyface win he did a job on PPV, then immediately turned back heel as part of the new hot heel act, only to have it immediately made clear that he was put in this group just to do jobs. Meanwhile, the first two guys he tried to murder by hanging as part of his big turn didn't really even bother to feud with him over it. The third guy he tries to hang finally does and he gets his "big win" over Jay Briscoe (not helped by the fact that last time ROH tried to push something as a big upset win it was Cheeseburger over Daniels, and Cheeseburger was still in the same spot he was before said "big" win), then he immediately goes right back to doing jobs. Even in a situation where it would make sense for him to either win or at the very least not do the job, he still did jobs. At Glory By Honor he was put in the main event with three proven ROH main eventers, just two weeks before he gets a TV Title shot... and he taps out clean to the TV Champ even though it would have made a lot more sense to either have him win or to have the other guy on his team do the job for the other guy on the other team. And all the while the cool kids in Bullet Club won't even let him stand there for their promos. Delirious' booking has made it absolutely clear that Adam Page is NOT a main eventer, but we're just supposed to believe that he is one because the commentators say a bunch of nebulous bullsh*t and point to one win that he had, expecting us to ignore the fact that he has constantly done jobs since then (and when he does win he isn't even allowed to win clean). It's like WWE when they try to tell us that it's an impressive feat for someone to beat Alicia Fox because Fox "is a former Divas Champion!" but they expect us to just ignore that she had the belt once, for a cup of coffee, many years ago, and we're just supposed to ignore the fact that she's been nothing but a jobber since then. It's that same Vince McMahon arrogance where he thinks that he doesn't have to put effort into building people up with good finishes because the he thinks the fans will just believe whatever he tells them.
Hey I'm not saying that Page's booking had been great or that he's going to become a Main Eventer. The Whitmer stuff was bullshit and was done bc Corino got injured. But hey, Page is getting more victories this year and he's looking stronger, not enought, but stronger than last year. I think could be a interesting TV Champ.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by famicommander » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:53 am

Can we please just pull the trigger on Silas Young and give him a championship already?

I'd be happy with any of the four.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:57 am

AlexROH wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote:
Wilson wrote:With Cody, Marty, and the Young Bucks ahead of him in the booking chain, I don’t see a breakthrough opportunity anywhere in the near future. It was said last year that he’ll be B-team, fall-person for as long as he’s in the Bullet Club. I think he’s been through too much damage in ROH for that to effectively change.
Right. Adam Page's 2016 was a lot worse than just going back to being the guy inthere to take the pinfalls after his win over Jay. It was a random babyface turn which led up to him getting his big win in a WAY too short feud vs. BJ Whitmer (which also resulted in Corino not being the first guy to get revenge on Whitmer), and after his big babyface win he did a job on PPV, then immediately turned back heel as part of the new hot heel act, only to have it immediately made clear that he was put in this group just to do jobs. Meanwhile, the first two guys he tried to murder by hanging as part of his big turn didn't really even bother to feud with him over it. The third guy he tries to hang finally does and he gets his "big win" over Jay Briscoe (not helped by the fact that last time ROH tried to push something as a big upset win it was Cheeseburger over Daniels, and Cheeseburger was still in the same spot he was before said "big" win), then he immediately goes right back to doing jobs. Even in a situation where it would make sense for him to either win or at the very least not do the job, he still did jobs. At Glory By Honor he was put in the main event with three proven ROH main eventers, just two weeks before he gets a TV Title shot... and he taps out clean to the TV Champ even though it would have made a lot more sense to either have him win or to have the other guy on his team do the job for the other guy on the other team. And all the while the cool kids in Bullet Club won't even let him stand there for their promos. Delirious' booking has made it absolutely clear that Adam Page is NOT a main eventer, but we're just supposed to believe that he is one because the commentators say a bunch of nebulous bullsh*t and point to one win that he had, expecting us to ignore the fact that he has constantly done jobs since then (and when he does win he isn't even allowed to win clean). It's like WWE when they try to tell us that it's an impressive feat for someone to beat Alicia Fox because Fox "is a former Divas Champion!" but they expect us to just ignore that she had the belt once, for a cup of coffee, many years ago, and we're just supposed to ignore the fact that she's been nothing but a jobber since then. It's that same Vince McMahon arrogance where he thinks that he doesn't have to put effort into building people up with good finishes because the he thinks the fans will just believe whatever he tells them.
Hey I'm not saying that Page's booking had been great or that he's going to become a Main Eventer. The Whitmer stuff was bullshit and was done bc Corino got injured. But hey, Page is getting more victories this year and he's looking stronger, not enought, but stronger than last year. I think could be a interesting TV Champ.
I just think he's too damaged for it to work. Certainly not while he's still with Bullet Club. No matter what they do with him in BC he will always come across like the sixth banana.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:58 am

famicommander wrote:Can we please just pull the trigger on Silas Young and give him a championship already?
Now there is a guy who would make a pretty good TV champion right about now.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Thelone » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:09 am

That's a massive issue with Delirious' """booking""" that everyone is put in one very specific spot and seems to be stuck there forever with little to no upward progression. There's a reason Starbust is like the only credible option (and I'm using that term very loosely here) to beat Daniels for the belt, because Castle is the same comedy character he's been since day one, because Page is destined to be someone's lackey/young boy, because Lethal is back in that mid/uppercard gatekeeper role he's always been in before his reign of terror, and you can apply the same logic to everyone else.
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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:34 am

Thelone wrote:That's a massive issue with Delirious' """booking""" that everyone is put in one very specific spot and seems to be stuck there forever with little to no upward progression. There's a reason Starbust is like the only credible option (and I'm using that term very loosely here) to beat Daniels for the belt, because Castle is the same comedy character he's been since day one, because Page is destined to be someone's lackey/young boy, because Lethal is back in that mid/uppercard gatekeeper role he's always been in before his reign of terror, and you can apply the same logic to everyone else.
Mark Briscoe is the guy who always tries to win the TV Title and fails, in between stints as the guy who takes the fall in tag matches because his brother must be protected at all costs.
Dijak was always a guy whose manager got angry at him because he went on losing streaks.
Taven has always been an upper-micard heel aside from his six months as an upper-midcard babyface.
Cole spent his last three and a half years as a main event heel with various stables behind him.

Just about the only guys who have really moved up in any way recently were reDRagon transitioning from being a main event tag team to being main event singles guys.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Wilson » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:31 am

Big Red Machine wrote: Mark Briscoe is the guy who always tries to win the TV Title and fails, in between stints as the guy who takes the fall in tag matches because his brother must be protected at all costs.
Dijak was always a guy whose manager got angry at him because he went on losing streaks.
Taven has always been an upper-micard heel aside from his six months as an upper-midcard babyface.
Cole spent his last three and a half years as a main event heel with various stables behind him.

Just about the only guys who have really moved up in any way recently were reDRagon transitioning from being a main event tag team to being main event singles guys.
I guess it’s worth pointing out that creative built up Daniels again (which still strikes more of desperation than a natural play, revealed by his lack of top-babyface reaction today).

Further, talent doesn’t get over in proportion to their tenure as a part of the product. The only exceptions to this are Dijak, who got over despite very uncommitted programs, Lethal, and talent that showcases their true value in other, larger promotions. There’s no reason that Castle, Taven, The Briscoes, King & Titus, Sabin, Young, and Page should practically be getting the same or lesser reactions than in 2015.

In other words, we should all start to adopt the stylized use of the phrase
Thelone wrote:"""booking"""[.]

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:17 am

Wilson wrote:
Big Red Machine wrote: Mark Briscoe is the guy who always tries to win the TV Title and fails, in between stints as the guy who takes the fall in tag matches because his brother must be protected at all costs.
Dijak was always a guy whose manager got angry at him because he went on losing streaks.
Taven has always been an upper-micard heel aside from his six months as an upper-midcard babyface.
Cole spent his last three and a half years as a main event heel with various stables behind him.

Just about the only guys who have really moved up in any way recently were reDRagon transitioning from being a main event tag team to being main event singles guys.
I guess it’s worth pointing out that creative built up Daniels again (which still strikes more of desperation than a natural play, revealed by his lack of top-babyface reaction today).
Even there, though, they really didn't do much. They had him win a tournament for #1 contendership. That's it. They didn't actually do much of anything to turn him babyface, though, or do much of anything to make someone who isn't a very long-term ROH fan care about Daniels winning the title any more than they would for a generic babyface.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by dhads7161 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:39 pm

I think ROH's best hope for a fresh new superstar to carry the company is Jay White. Yeah, he's just on excursion right now but unlike the last two guys ROH had during their excursion (Watanabe, Kamaitachi) there is actually some effort being put into him. I could definitely see him having a contract with both companies like the Bucks.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by dhads7161 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:49 pm

Adam Page to me just screams superstar. His look, how he carries himself, all that. Only thing that doesn't scream it is his booking. To me that promo with BJ at SCOH Day 2 last year showed his presence but instead of following up and positioning him in an up and coming upper mid card/main event spot after finishing with BJ he joined BC and became their U.S. (and even Japanese) fall boy after being a fall boy for the two years prior.

Now I'm sure Stevie Woltz isn't complaining that in the last year he's got to make wrestling his full time career especially since before the WOTW tour last year he was still doing the weekend warrior routine, but as a fan of his (he is my second favorite ROH star now since Cole is leaving) the booking is very frustrating.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by famicommander » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:00 pm

If Kushida wins the IWGP Jr Heavyweight Championship back at Dominion, will he be the first wrestler to hold singles gold in ROH and NJPW at the same time? Obviously it's been done a number of times with all the various tag team belts, but I can't think of any instances as far as singles belts go.

Also, Cody Rhodes has apparently vacated that alpha bet soup GFW belt he had, as he is done appearing for Impact. I wonder if Jarrett is going to unify it with the X-Division title or just forget about it.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Montana » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:17 am

Quick Question.... Did they show the Adam Cole vs Kyle O'reily match where Cole won the belt for the 3rd time on ROH TV? I just find it odd, watching the DVD's it goes from Final Battle, where Kyle wins the belt, to Undisputed Legacy, where Cole winning the belt was kind of glossed over. Is this the first ROH world title change not on ROH DVD?


As for Hangman Page, i think he's pretty good, but in terms of him being in the upper card i'm not sure i'd agree with that. Good wrestler, good gimmick, overall very solid... but to me, nothing at the moment sreams main eventer. Now, i haven't watched most of 2016 other than some live events... so i wouldn't be surprised if he's stepped his game up. In terms of booking, i could see where he good be booked better. Kind of seems passed over in bullet club with Marty and Cody. Would most likely be a good time now to build that heat between two of those three. At the end of the day for me... Personally i'd move up Will, Marty, Jay White, Dalton Castle into the main event scene before Page, and give Page a run with the TV belt. Or tag up with someone for a run with the tag titles. I think that would better suit Page.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by Big Red Machine » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:38 am

Montana wrote:Quick Question.... Did they show the Adam Cole vs Kyle O'reily match where Cole won the belt for the 3rd time on ROH TV? I just find it odd, watching the DVD's it goes from Final Battle, where Kyle wins the belt, to Undisputed Legacy, where Cole winning the belt was kind of glossed over. Is this the first ROH world title change not on ROH DVD?
You are correct. This would be the only ROH World Title change- or, I believe, title change of any sort- not on ROH DVD. And I don't remember them showing it on TV, either.

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Re: Random ROH Thoughts Thread

Post by KL_ » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:16 am

They showed some fragments of that match during one of the episodes on TV

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