Random ROH Thoughts Thread

[Chrisvegas27]

Looks like new japan will be taking roh spot in the states with the news of them returning to axs and rumored roh talent going to new japan strong and could be challenge impact for the third company behind wwe and aew since both impact and new japan are on the same network

[indyfan]

So Shane and this other guy are doing a book on ROH. How long has it been since Shane had anything to do with ROH....it must have been 8 years atleast.

The Bristol office was shuttered in October of 2013. Considering where Hagadorn works, his connections, my connections, and who each of us speak too regularly a proper rise and fall book is going to be done. Snowden wrote the Frank Shamrock book which was excellent, indepth, and as honest as possible. There is a lot of work done on my end with this book as well including providing copies of dvds and other historical info/data. It's a shame not a one of you pay attention to the podcast you might actually learn something or find something that the book will one day tell you.

No offense but judging by your demeaner around here and how you speak to people, its pretty clear why no one listens to your podcast. Plus all your negativity about the product over the last couple years.

i doubt id read the book. Especially if its going to be full of "ROH changed too much" or "new ROH fans arent real ROH fans" or "Taven had a better career than Hagadorn" i just dont want to read about that negativity. Why would i need to read that? To hear a bunch of guys say the end of ROH happened in 2011 and not in 2021

[AnHonorableMention]

So Shane and this other guy are doing a book on ROH. How long has it been since Shane had anything to do with ROH....it must have been 8 years atleast.

The Bristol office was shuttered in October of 2013. Considering where Hagadorn works, his connections, my connections, and who each of us speak too regularly a proper rise and fall book is going to be done. Snowden wrote the Frank Shamrock book which was excellent, indepth, and as honest as possible. There is a lot of work done on my end with this book as well including providing copies of dvds and other historical info/data. It's a shame not a one of you pay attention to the podcast you might actually learn something or find something that the book will one day tell you.

No offense but judging by your demeaner around here and how you speak to people, its pretty clear why no one listens to your podcast. Plus all your negativity about the product over the last couple years.

i doubt id read the book. Especially if its going to be full of "ROH changed too much" or "new ROH fans arent real ROH fans" or "Taven had a better career than Hagadorn" i just dont want to read about that negativity. Why would i need to read that? To hear a bunch of guys say the end of ROH happened in 2011 and not in 2021

If you all ever wanted to know why ROH is dead, read the above stupidity instead of the book.

[indyfan]

The Bristol office was shuttered in October of 2013. Considering where Hagadorn works, his connections, my connections, and who each of us speak too regularly a proper rise and fall book is going to be done. Snowden wrote the Frank Shamrock book which was excellent, indepth, and as honest as possible. There is a lot of work done on my end with this book as well including providing copies of dvds and other historical info/data. It's a shame not a one of you pay attention to the podcast you might actually learn something or find something that the book will one day tell you.

No offense but judging by your demeaner around here and how you speak to people, its pretty clear why no one listens to your podcast. Plus all your negativity about the product over the last couple years.

i doubt id read the book. Especially if its going to be full of "ROH changed too much" or "new ROH fans arent real ROH fans" or "Taven had a better career than Hagadorn" i just dont want to read about that negativity. Why would i need to read that? To hear a bunch of guys say the end of ROH happened in 2011 and not in 2021

If you all ever wanted to know why ROH is dead, read the above stupidity instead of the book.

Instead of being vague just explain yourself...

But im perplexed, why would listening to your podcast or reading this book enlighten us? Also why would it even matter? All buying that book or listening to your podcast would do is support you, some guy i never heard of and Shane Hagadorn.

ROH...if its dead, its most likely collateral damage due to Sinclair making shitty business deals outside of wrestling. It has nothing to do with me. in fact, me buying ROH dvds since 2005 - 2006 ultimately helped the company survive.

You re Welcome!!!

[Big Red Machine]

No offense but judging by your demeaner around here and how you speak to people, its pretty clear why no one listens to your podcast. Plus all your negativity about the product over the last couple years.

i doubt id read the book. Especially if its going to be full of "ROH changed too much" or "new ROH fans arent real ROH fans" or "Taven had a better career than Hagadorn" i just dont want to read about that negativity. Why would i need to read that? To hear a bunch of guys say the end of ROH happened in 2011 and not in 2021

If you all ever wanted to know why ROH is dead, read the above stupidity instead of the book.

Instead of being vague just explain yourself...

But im perplexed, why would listening to your podcast or reading this book enlighten us? Also why would it even matter? All buying that book or listening to your podcast would do is support you, some guy i never heard of and Shane Hagadorn.

I don't know Jeff or Shane personally (I mean... I heckled Shane at some shows in 2009, but that hardly counts), but I do listen to their podcast and find it very enlightening. There is a lot of little stuff on the DVDs that I missed the first time around that Shane and Jeff point out, and as someone who only started following the product towards the end of 2008, they give a good overview of the fan sentiment at the time as well.
Shane and Jeff have a clear appreciation for love of the product while also not being afraid to point out its flaws.


Is it theoretically possible that they could just be making up the details of their personal interactions with people and Shane could be making up some of the things he notes about what the plans were? Of course. But it seems highly unlikely, simply given how long the podcast has been going by now. I can't imagine that there is no one listening to the podcast who would have said something about it to someone being discussed and that the truth wouldn't have come out (or at least some controversy). But, to my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet. And given that Shane would have to be some sort of insane narcissist to be making up all of these details just to do a podcast knowing that any lie he tells might well come back someone he either has to share a locker room with or might want to use as a connection to help get a booking one day, it doesn't seem very likely to me that they aren't telling the truth.

As for the vagueness- as someone who has been beating a similar drum for a while, here is what the issue is:

By changing away from the core philosophies that the company was founded on- strong storytelling, both in the ring and with the storylines, a commitment to giving clean finishes in the overwhelming majority of situations (i.e. only not giving them when it is truly essential to the storyline to not do so), a commitment to showcasing the best talent available (rather than nepotism and using people who pay to go to a lot of tryout camps), ROH lost its identity, and that identity was key to giving fans a reason to stick with ROH whenever key talent left. Without that identity, when certain talents got super-over and left, there was no reason for the fans who loved those talents to keep watching ROH.



And at the very least, I'd think someone would want to read to the book to see what for former ROH wrestlers who haven't talked too in depth about their time in ROH would have to say about it.

[Chrisvegas27]

Will be interesting if impact becomes roh 2.0 after saturday

[indyfan]

If you all ever wanted to know why ROH is dead, read the above stupidity instead of the book.

Instead of being vague just explain yourself...

But im perplexed, why would listening to your podcast or reading this book enlighten us? Also why would it even matter? All buying that book or listening to your podcast would do is support you, some guy i never heard of and Shane Hagadorn.

I don't know Jeff or Shane personally (I mean... I heckled Shane at some shows in 2009, but that hardly counts), but I do listen to their podcast and find it very enlightening. There is a lot of little stuff on the DVDs that I missed the first time around that Shane and Jeff point out, and as someone who only started following the product towards the end of 2008, they give a good overview of the fan sentiment at the time as well.
Shane and Jeff have a clear appreciation for love of the product while also not being afraid to point out its flaws.


Is it theoretically possible that they could just be making up the details of their personal interactions with people and Shane could be making up some of the things he notes about what the plans were? Of course. But it seems highly unlikely, simply given how long the podcast has been going by now. I can't imagine that there is no one listening to the podcast who would have said something about it to someone being discussed and that the truth wouldn't have come out (or at least some controversy). But, to my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet. And given that Shane would have to be some sort of insane narcissist to be making up all of these details just to do a podcast knowing that any lie he tells might well come back someone he either has to share a locker room with or might want to use as a connection to help get a booking one day, it doesn't seem very likely to me that they aren't telling the truth.

As for the vagueness- as someone who has been beating a similar drum for a while, here is what the issue is:

By changing away from the core philosophies that the company was founded on- strong storytelling, both in the ring and with the storylines, a commitment to giving clean finishes in the overwhelming majority of situations (i.e. only not giving them when it is truly essential to the storyline to not do so), a commitment to showcasing the best talent available (rather than nepotism and using people who pay to go to a lot of tryout camps), ROH lost its identity, and that identity was key to giving fans a reason to stick with ROH whenever key talent left. Without that identity, when certain talents got super-over and left, there was no reason for the fans who loved those talents to keep watching ROH.



And at the very least, I'd think someone would want to read to the book to see what for former ROH wrestlers who haven't talked too in depth about their time in ROH would have to say about it.

Sure i can see that as being a good peice to own or read. But id think it wouldnt be all that eye opening. Do they bury the current product on their podcast? That would just be super annoying as ive read enough of people doing that.

As for ROH and its popularity..... Id think ROH was bigger in 2015-mid 2019 than ever before. I think most old school fans and the philosophy left after Gabe left. Then Gabe started DG USA and Evolve and mixing the talent pool was a no no. And look at Evolve now. Gone. Gabe brought that philosophy to both DG USA and Evolve and the storytelling wasnt really there and their undercard sucked. They had great matches. but were they really all that much better? DG style died out pretty quick since it was viewed as no story and just moves. And their attendance sucked compared to ROHs

[indyfan]

double post

[dhads7161]

William Regal is on the market...if you really want a new direction when (or if) the company is back from hiatus a new booker would be a great idea.

[Montana]

BRM had some good points about how the product evolved/changed from the original concept. Indyfan also had some good points on how Evolve/DGUSA used those same beliefs; turning those same time periods; and they were failed experiments. Think the landscape really shifted once NXT basically turned into ROH all stars. ROH could have stuck with their values; but i'm not sure much changes without better distribution & money being put into the product. Think we all can agree, 2018 was their most financially successful year. maybe not the best creative/product wise.

Plus now AEW/Impact/GCW are also using a lot of the traits that got ROH over in the first place now. Not to say; it wouldn't have helped; but i don't think the wrestling product was the problem.

Interesting to see HM working on a book. Last year or so; i actually was thinking of putting together an ROH Encyclopedia type book... which would basically be a walk through of ROH year by year; with classic pictures / roster pages, lots of match statistics; and all time records/stats; with the goal of it's being ready for release around the 20th anniversary. The overall story would be how the company started from the Murphy Rec Center; all the way to MSG; survived all obstacles in their way, focusing on the positives. Each year would be like a chapter. In my mind; it would be pretty awesome; it just would take too much time/effort to put together & i would want to partner with ROH to promote the book; so i imagine that would be near impossible.


******************************************************************************************************************************

I got the ROH "collector series" DVDs in the mail today.... all but the Adam Cole Best of. They went back to the older style black DVD cases; like pre-2013ish, instead of the current cardboard style which i like. Don't like the gold collector series banner at the top, feels kinda plain. The covers are new designs/art work. They look OK; but not sharp/eye popping. Same with the back covers. Although, i really like back of Final Battle 2012; where they did some filters/photo editing to make it look more like artwork/hand drawn (Steen/Generico). They don't say like the year of the Final Battle; they don't have the exact dates/locations for the events. No numbering. Haven't opened them; but feels like just the DVD is in there.

All in all; they are alright; and probably best for those who want the shows; but missed the original releases.

I would have preferred ROH focus on the Best of 2008 and on; and maybe more "premium packaging" if they want to do a "collector" series; but it's all good.

The Pure Tournament DVD looks nice/sharp. The cardboard style / 2 disc set.

[Big Red Machine]

Instead of being vague just explain yourself...

But im perplexed, why would listening to your podcast or reading this book enlighten us? Also why would it even matter? All buying that book or listening to your podcast would do is support you, some guy i never heard of and Shane Hagadorn.

I don't know Jeff or Shane personally (I mean... I heckled Shane at some shows in 2009, but that hardly counts), but I do listen to their podcast and find it very enlightening. There is a lot of little stuff on the DVDs that I missed the first time around that Shane and Jeff point out, and as someone who only started following the product towards the end of 2008, they give a good overview of the fan sentiment at the time as well.
Shane and Jeff have a clear appreciation for love of the product while also not being afraid to point out its flaws.


Is it theoretically possible that they could just be making up the details of their personal interactions with people and Shane could be making up some of the things he notes about what the plans were? Of course. But it seems highly unlikely, simply given how long the podcast has been going by now. I can't imagine that there is no one listening to the podcast who would have said something about it to someone being discussed and that the truth wouldn't have come out (or at least some controversy). But, to my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet. And given that Shane would have to be some sort of insane narcissist to be making up all of these details just to do a podcast knowing that any lie he tells might well come back someone he either has to share a locker room with or might want to use as a connection to help get a booking one day, it doesn't seem very likely to me that they aren't telling the truth.

As for the vagueness- as someone who has been beating a similar drum for a while, here is what the issue is:

By changing away from the core philosophies that the company was founded on- strong storytelling, both in the ring and with the storylines, a commitment to giving clean finishes in the overwhelming majority of situations (i.e. only not giving them when it is truly essential to the storyline to not do so), a commitment to showcasing the best talent available (rather than nepotism and using people who pay to go to a lot of tryout camps), ROH lost its identity, and that identity was key to giving fans a reason to stick with ROH whenever key talent left. Without that identity, when certain talents got super-over and left, there was no reason for the fans who loved those talents to keep watching ROH.



And at the very least, I'd think someone would want to read to the book to see what for former ROH wrestlers who haven't talked too in depth about their time in ROH would have to say about it.

Sure i can see that as being a good peice to own or read. But id think it wouldnt be all that eye opening. Do they bury the current product on their podcast? That would just be super annoying as ive read enough of people doing that.

As for ROH and its popularity..... Id think ROH was bigger in 2015-mid 2019 than ever before. I think most old school fans and the philosophy left after Gabe left. Then Gabe started DG USA and Evolve and mixing the talent pool was a no no. And look at Evolve now. Gone. Gabe brought that philosophy to both DG USA and Evolve and the storytelling wasnt really there and their undercard sucked. They had great matches. but were they really all that much better? DG style died out pretty quick since it was viewed as no story and just moves. And their attendance sucked compared to ROHs

They don't go out of their way to bury the new product on their podcast, but they will bring it up when it is relevant, and they don't sugarcoat things.

I think (I'm going purely off of memory from looking things up in the past) that their best year in terms of consistently drawing houses was 2015. Other years might (and almost certainly do) have higher numbers overall, but those are often inflated by one much bigger than average house at WrestleMania weekend, and IMO, those shows don't draw the numbers they draw if WreslteMania weekend doesn't become a big destination thing. Before about 2016, it was mostly just ROH, WWN brands, and CHIKARA running that weekend, if I remember correctly. Yes, the later years drew bigger numbers with more competition, and I'm not saying that's not impressive, but the shows before then had a lot fewer wrestling fans flying in looking to spend bunches of money).

After 2015 they drew good houses some places, but also drew a lot worse in places you'd expect them to do better. In either late 2016 or early 2017 they drew fewer people in Chicago then they did at Man Up when they had no TV at all, and had no one even close to the level of national recognition that Cody and the Bucks had. To admittedly kind of cherry-pick, but it's one that stands out in my mind, for a nothing-happening "Road to..." show in 2015 ROH drew 800 in Oklahoma City. In their only other trick to OKC in 2017 for the SOTF finals (plus Cody and Bucks), they drew less than that (by a few hundred, if I remember correctly). I think 2015 was also their best attendance in MN by quite a bit.

As for the fans with the "old philosophy" having left with Gabe, I remember people getting quite upset at f*ck finishes in big main events in 2015 and 2016. The f*ck finish in Chicago with Cole joining Bullet Club was pretty clearly something that caused the big down-turn in Chicago crowds that I mentioned above they drew 2000 for that show, and under 1,000 the next two times. (I think the houses went back up for the next show, which had a big NJPW presence on it, but I don't want to go to the Observer site and check the actual number for fear of Wrestle Kingdom spoilers).

Also, if those people left with Gabe, I would have assumed they would have followed him to EVOLVE, as it had that philosophy, but based on EVOLVE's attendance numbers even back then, that doesn't seem to have been the case. EVOLVE, unfortunately, never really got out of the gate. 2012-2013 is the gap in my EVOLVE knowledge, but I don't remember them drawing more than a few hundred at any point other than a WrestleMania weekend show, whereas there was a point in ROH where if they went somewhere for the first time and "only" drew 500, people would say "that's not good."

I can give you a whole bunch of excuses for why I think EVOLVE got a raw deal (particularly the fact that the minute the storylines really started to coalesce around shows 6-8, they lost pretty much every talent they had been building up- Jimmy Jacobs, Kyle O'Reilly, Adam Cole, Jon Moxley, Brodie Lee, Brad Allen, Claudio, TJ Perkins, Drake Younger, Austin Aries) mostly to getting signed by bigger promotions so they basically had to start all over with everyone who wasn't Sami Callihan, Chuck Taylor, or Johnny Gargano), but the simple answer is that I think EVOLVE went too far in the "everything must be super-clean" direction. ROH, though, under Gabe, Pearce, and under Delirious until 2015 (not under Cornette,though) had found that great middle ground, using dirty finishes sparingly. In 2015 (and it really stepped up in 2016) ROH moved away from that and started doing heel finishes all the time just so that a babyface wouldn't have to lose cleanly, and then not following up on them, thus making them mean nothing, and thus turned into TNA and WWE (and look at New Japan at the moment, too).

ROH switched away from a formula that was working, and had been working for quite a while (yes, the company was losing money to the point where Cary decided to pull out, but in terms of attendance and reach, the company was growing) and results of this were masked for a few years because ROH lucked into a mega-over stable and a wave of fans that was into everything that group did, no matter how little sense it made (go read Dave's report on the aforementioned Chicago show in October 2017. There was a line in there where he said it was strange that the crowd was so hot for all of Bullet Club's spots, but didn't actually care about the results of the matches, or something along those lines). Once that group left, those fans mostly left with them, and ROH was just coasting on Bullet Club's popularity and didn't try to build up anyone to replace them, so they were left with nothing.

[Big Red Machine]

BRM had some good points about how the product evolved/changed from the original concept. Indyfan also had some good points on how Evolve/DGUSA used those same beliefs; turning those same time periods; and they were failed experiments. Think the landscape really shifted once NXT basically turned into ROH all stars. ROH could have stuck with their values; but i'm not sure much changes without better distribution & money being put into the product. Think we all can agree, 2018 was their most financially successful year. maybe not the best creative/product wise.

Plus now AEW/Impact/GCW are also using a lot of the traits that got ROH over in the first place now. Not to say; it wouldn't have helped; but i don't think the wrestling product was the problem.

I think part of the consequence of poor booking and scouting, though, was allowing places like GCW to rise up. When ROH lost Cole, Kyle, Dijak, ACH, War Machine, etc. they should have replaced them by focusing on and featuring guys like Gresham and snatching up that next generation of guys like Fred Yehi, Alexander James, David Starr, Santana & Ortiz, Jaka, Dickinson, etc. instead they replaced them with old hands Scorpio Sky and Bully Ray, and sticking for too long with the likes of Cheeseburger, and unfinished products like Shane Taylor, Vinny, TK O'Ryan, etc, and just coasting on what Bullet Club was bringing them. If ROH is putting on a compelling product and building up these young stars as "ROH guys" (until Bullet Club left, they only really put effort into Flip and Dalton), and if ROH gets their act together a streaming service off the ground (they were WAY late to that game) then I don't think there is quite as much room for GCW, AIW, Beyond, and whoever else to get attention and supplant them as the highest-quality wrestling in North America.

[AnHonorableMention]

No offense but judging by your demeaner around here and how you speak to people, its pretty clear why no one listens to your podcast. Plus all your negativity about the product over the last couple years.

i doubt id read the book. Especially if its going to be full of "ROH changed too much" or "new ROH fans arent real ROH fans" or "Taven had a better career than Hagadorn" i just dont want to read about that negativity. Why would i need to read that? To hear a bunch of guys say the end of ROH happened in 2011 and not in 2021

If you all ever wanted to know why ROH is dead, read the above stupidity instead of the book.

Instead of being vague just explain yourself...

But im perplexed, why would listening to your podcast or reading this book enlighten us? Also why would it even matter? All buying that book or listening to your podcast would do is support you, some guy i never heard of and Shane Hagadorn.

ROH...if its dead, its most likely collateral damage due to Sinclair making shitty business deals outside of wrestling. It has nothing to do with me. in fact, me buying ROH dvds since 2005 - 2006 ultimately helped the company survive.

You re Welcome!!!

If you love something the way Hags and I do, like the ROH of old, you would want to listen to the show and read the book to gain knowledge from two people that were on the inside of things. I certainly wasn't as privy to what Hagadorn was working day to day in the ROH office but I also developed a lot of really close relationships with talent that would share things that didn't get shared with management, especially in the modern era. The company died because they ignored history. The same history you ignore not listening or reading.

[AnHonorableMention]

If you all ever wanted to know why ROH is dead, read the above stupidity instead of the book.

Instead of being vague just explain yourself...

But im perplexed, why would listening to your podcast or reading this book enlighten us? Also why would it even matter? All buying that book or listening to your podcast would do is support you, some guy i never heard of and Shane Hagadorn.

I don't know Jeff or Shane personally (I mean... I heckled Shane at some shows in 2009, but that hardly counts), but I do listen to their podcast and find it very enlightening. There is a lot of little stuff on the DVDs that I missed the first time around that Shane and Jeff point out, and as someone who only started following the product towards the end of 2008, they give a good overview of the fan sentiment at the time as well.
Shane and Jeff have a clear appreciation for love of the product while also not being afraid to point out its flaws.


Is it theoretically possible that they could just be making up the details of their personal interactions with people and Shane could be making up some of the things he notes about what the plans were? Of course. But it seems highly unlikely, simply given how long the podcast has been going by now. I can't imagine that there is no one listening to the podcast who would have said something about it to someone being discussed and that the truth wouldn't have come out (or at least some controversy). But, to my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet. And given that Shane would have to be some sort of insane narcissist to be making up all of these details just to do a podcast knowing that any lie he tells might well come back someone he either has to share a locker room with or might want to use as a connection to help get a booking one day, it doesn't seem very likely to me that they aren't telling the truth.

As for the vagueness- as someone who has been beating a similar drum for a while, here is what the issue is:

By changing away from the core philosophies that the company was founded on- strong storytelling, both in the ring and with the storylines, a commitment to giving clean finishes in the overwhelming majority of situations (i.e. only not giving them when it is truly essential to the storyline to not do so), a commitment to showcasing the best talent available (rather than nepotism and using people who pay to go to a lot of tryout camps), ROH lost its identity, and that identity was key to giving fans a reason to stick with ROH whenever key talent left. Without that identity, when certain talents got super-over and left, there was no reason for the fans who loved those talents to keep watching ROH.



And at the very least, I'd think someone would want to read to the book to see what for former ROH wrestlers who haven't talked too in depth about their time in ROH would have to say about it.

Thank you for the kind words and for listening. We try to be honest, we do try to keep things private when asked to do so but we want to deliver a show that teaches fans what things were like.

There's a reason we don't generally have guests on outside of certain people because there are agenda's in some cases. In fact ROH didn't want their talent on our show because they were concerned issues could be brought up. We've had people reach out to have us correct things or if they didn't like what we said. My DM's are open for that reason and people will pop in there now and again. No I won't name them.

Ring of Honor is a very important part of my life and I'm never going to view it the way everyone agrees with. We've done 192 episodes to date, we have talent and staff from both major promotions who listen. There is nobody outside of LOL ill pretend I said 18 video and Cornette that Hagadorn and I would deny a platform to speak their piece.

EDIT: As far as podcast integrity, you'll never hear any factual statements out of either of us that are false. We do ok on ads and patreon seems to be growing a bit, but we're not stupid or reckless, and not getting sued.

[tigermask7.0]

Looks like new japan will be taking roh spot in the states with the news of them returning to axs and rumored roh talent going to new japan strong and could be challenge impact for the third company behind wwe and aew since both impact and new japan are on the same network

Is this axs show going to be a recap of japanese events?
Is it going to be a platform for NJPWofA?
What ROH talent and/or factions are going to be wrestling?

[Montana]

BRM had some good points about how the product evolved/changed from the original concept. Indyfan also had some good points on how Evolve/DGUSA used those same beliefs; turning those same time periods; and they were failed experiments. Think the landscape really shifted once NXT basically turned into ROH all stars. ROH could have stuck with their values; but i'm not sure much changes without better distribution & money being put into the product. Think we all can agree, 2018 was their most financially successful year. maybe not the best creative/product wise.

Plus now AEW/Impact/GCW are also using a lot of the traits that got ROH over in the first place now. Not to say; it wouldn't have helped; but i don't think the wrestling product was the problem.

I think part of the consequence of poor booking and scouting, though, was allowing places like GCW to rise up. When ROH lost Cole, Kyle, Dijak, ACH, War Machine, etc. they should have replaced them by focusing on and featuring guys like Gresham and snatching up that next generation of guys like Fred Yehi, Alexander James, David Starr, Santana & Ortiz, Jaka, Dickinson, etc. instead they replaced them with old hands Scorpio Sky and Bully Ray, and sticking for too long with the likes of Cheeseburger, and unfinished products like Shane Taylor, Vinny, TK O'Ryan, etc, and just coasting on what Bullet Club was bringing them. If ROH is putting on a compelling product and building up these young stars as "ROH guys" (until Bullet Club left, they only really put effort into Flip and Dalton), and if ROH gets their act together a streaming service off the ground (they were WAY late to that game) then I don't think there is quite as much room for GCW, AIW, Beyond, and whoever else to get attention and supplant them as the highest-quality wrestling in North America.

Hindsight is always 2020.... I think if you go back to 2015/2016 , my opinion one of their bigger/first "missed opportunities" was purchasing TNA Wrestling while they were in financial / Legal trouble. I'm not sure if the cost would have been worth the price; at the time... BUT you in theory they would get their tape library for a most robust streaming service, you'd potentially acquire some fraction of their fanbase; and cherry pick the top 10-15 wrestlers. You'd jump start your women's division; and now your the #2 company; and eliminate some competition. Pending the time; maybe you get guys like Samoa Joe back; potentially Lashley, Drew MCintyre, Kurt Angle, Davey Richards, etc.

Not sure if Sinclair was ready to make that move at the time; but as history repeats itself; ROH continually missed the window of opportunity. I really don't think ROH had to pull the trigger on this; as they were successful 2015-2018 without it; but it just allowed Impact to be born; and have a comeback. In theory, with this bigger investment; you'd want a better TV deal as well.

As for using/hiring guys like Scorpio, Shane T, Vinny, Cheeseburger, Bully Ray vs. Yehi, James, Starr, LAX, Jaka , Dickinson.... i don't think any of these guys would have been "game changers". Essentially these were low-mid card guys. Maybe more long term potential in the others; maybe not though. LAX and the Briscoes would have been nice; but we were getting Briscoes vs. Bucks/GOD/SCU/Best Friends/MCMG/R3K/KES, etc etc. Think any/all would have struggled to work up the card.

As for Beyond/GCW/AIW... they aren't even in close to ROH in 2018. 2019 obliviously was a sharp turn down. Guess it depends how type of success you want for ROH too though. Do you want ROH to be a "hot Indy" or do you want ROH to be a reliable #2 wrestling promotion with a cable network deal.

In theory; with the money that ROH has, it shouldn't take to worry about these smaller promotions, but here we are. Don't think most people think those promotions have the "best wrestling" but again that's kind of subjective on what you like. No reason, why ROH isn't in AEW's position, with potentially a better roster/show; with a bigger investment & better leadership with Sinclair in my opinion.

[McXal]

If ROH is genuinely being ‘reimagined’ for Q2 2022 can Joe & Sinclair please ‘imagine’ a way to throw whatever money is needed at Gabe to bring him home?

[Montana]

If ROH is genuinely being ‘reimagined’ for Q2 2022 can Joe & Sinclair please ‘imagine’ a way to throw whatever money is needed at Gabe to bring him home?

Wow; talk about Gabe and Regal potentially falling in ROH's lap. (Plus i think Chris Hero has done a great job helping out in 2021) You'd have a VERY strong backstage team with bringing these guys in. MUST DO; if ROH is serious about a rebuild/re-imagined ROH.

[tigermask7.0]

It would be ironic if the new ROH 2.0 became the old NXT 1.0

Sinclair . . . make it happen!!!

[Big Red Machine]

BRM had some good points about how the product evolved/changed from the original concept. Indyfan also had some good points on how Evolve/DGUSA used those same beliefs; turning those same time periods; and they were failed experiments. Think the landscape really shifted once NXT basically turned into ROH all stars. ROH could have stuck with their values; but i'm not sure much changes without better distribution & money being put into the product. Think we all can agree, 2018 was their most financially successful year. maybe not the best creative/product wise.

Plus now AEW/Impact/GCW are also using a lot of the traits that got ROH over in the first place now. Not to say; it wouldn't have helped; but i don't think the wrestling product was the problem.

I think part of the consequence of poor booking and scouting, though, was allowing places like GCW to rise up. When ROH lost Cole, Kyle, Dijak, ACH, War Machine, etc. they should have replaced them by focusing on and featuring guys like Gresham and snatching up that next generation of guys like Fred Yehi, Alexander James, David Starr, Santana & Ortiz, Jaka, Dickinson, etc. instead they replaced them with old hands Scorpio Sky and Bully Ray, and sticking for too long with the likes of Cheeseburger, and unfinished products like Shane Taylor, Vinny, TK O'Ryan, etc, and just coasting on what Bullet Club was bringing them. If ROH is putting on a compelling product and building up these young stars as "ROH guys" (until Bullet Club left, they only really put effort into Flip and Dalton), and if ROH gets their act together a streaming service off the ground (they were WAY late to that game) then I don't think there is quite as much room for GCW, AIW, Beyond, and whoever else to get attention and supplant them as the highest-quality wrestling in North America.

As for using/hiring guys like Scorpio, Shane T, Vinny, Cheeseburger, Bully Ray vs. Yehi, James, Starr, LAX, Jaka , Dickinson.... i don't think any of these guys would have been "game changers". Essentially these were low-mid card guys. Maybe more long term potential in the others; maybe not though. LAX and the Briscoes would have been nice; but we were getting Briscoes vs. Bucks/GOD/SCU/Best Friends/MCMG/R3K/KES, etc etc. Think any/all would have struggled to work up the card.

I think the Jaka/Dickinson team, LAX, Yehi and Star all had potential to be something (and for LAX and Jaka/Dickinson, I think the attenion of working with the Bucks and the Briscoes could have really helped). You're also overstating how much GOD and KES were around, and R3K were on excursion. They weren't going to take up a top of the card spot. Also, I wouldn't have brought Best Friends in, so that would take pressure off of that.

As for Beyond/GCW/AIW... they aren't even in close to ROH in 2018. 2019 obliviously was a sharp turn down. Guess it depends how type of success you want for ROH too though. Do you want ROH to be a "hot Indy" or do you want ROH to be a reliable #2 wrestling promotion with a cable network deal.

I'm not saying those promotions are close to where ROH was in 2018. What I'm saying is that if ROH had been better, those companies wouldn't have had room to grow and wouldn't have been able to be the buzz-getting indies in 2021 so that ROH wouldn't have had to fight for attention with them.


As for the "hot indy" vs. cable wrestling promotion thing, obviously it all depends on how you define "indy" (is it exposure level or style or schedule or how you do contracts, or just who owns you), but I think it's absolutely possible to be a steady national cable TV wrestling product while keeping all of the best aspect of independent wrestling.