Random ROH Thoughts Thread

[AnHonorableMention]

1. Delirious is not a competent booker. He is someone who benefited from incredibly gifted wrestlers for almost the entirety of his run. Delirious is an incredible idea man, in fact this was suggested to me in 2015 by someone incredibly frustrated with Delirious tenure, I think, that if you took Pearce's booking structure with Delirious's concepts you would have the perfect leader of creative.

2. The Taven idea at MSG was an incredibly massive mistake. I don't think I've ever seen such a stupid execution of a booking decision. Based on time and place that was the death nail in ROH. Lethal winning wouldn't have worked, an Scurll was the right choice to win in spite of what was coming a year later. Very easily could have had Marty win, have Taven win the title via fuck finish if you really wanted heat. Now, at the time Bubba Dudley and Joey Matthews were in on creative, the Enzo/Cass shit was their idea and came with cooperation from Greg the Office Boy. Delirious should not take the fall for that.

3. All due respect to PCO, he falls into the category of one of my biggest ROH complaints from back in the day. He's a novelty not a necessity. Necro Butcher was the same thing. They didn't need to be on every show nor did they need belts. The decision to put it on PCO so fast after Rush was not only short sighted but poorly executed in one of the worst matches for the ROH World Title ever.

4. The problem with creative is that it is an incredibly difficult job because the quality of candidates available is so minimal. There are wrestlers who would make very good creative minds but they work elsewhere. There are are also wrestlers who think they would make great bookers but end up like Delirious where they have a hard time playing out a story from end to the beginning. I'll repeat that, from end to the beginning. There's one wrestler ROH used who did some agent work as well as wrestled that should have been offered a creative role. ROH did not do that. This "relaunch" people keep harping on is hysterical because it's not going to happen in the way traditional ROH was. If anything, it's going to be one person and a bunch of talent who don't work the traditional ROH style and those with AEW beef/No WWE size/age wants. I'm not even so sure that's gonna happen either. I'm still checking my watch for the DG USA hiatus to end.

[Big Red Machine]

I think there are a lot of parallels between him as a booker and him as a wrestler. I think he is underappreciated as a wrestler, and in a lot of ways as a booker as well. The booking has been technically proficient, which a lot of people overlook in the same way they do a consistently above average in ring wrestler who can have good matches with a variety of styles, but much in the same way that the “babyface character has been flat and repetitive”, so has much of the ROH booking. There really hasn’t been a strong story told in…I don’t even know how long… The story of the dual champs is honestly more interesting than anything that’s been done by design.

Personally, I hope he is a part of the booking after the reboot, but a head of creative, or creative team, is desperately needed.

ROH needs to get out of their own bubble (metaphorically not COVID speaking).

I would greatly disagree that the booking was "technically proficient." As I have spent countless years documenting at this point, the stories rarely made sense if you looked at them from start to finish on every show. And a lot of them didn't even have endings. They just stopped. And not because people left, either. They just ended.

[McXal]

As with AHM and BRM above - not sure I’d agree at all with Delirious being a ‘proficient’ booker, particularly as his time in charge has stretched on and on. In particular I think the point that he has been carried by his incredibly talented roster is pertinent. It’s something I’ve said in my review series countless times.

I’m astonished that someone could think that putting the belt on Taven at MSG wasn’t an atrocious idea I must say. Not trying to discredit or belittle anyone if they felt differently - but that isn’t my impression at all. Of the three options, Taven winning was by far the least appropriate result and was absolutely responsible, in part, for the disastrous fan reaction to ROH’s half of G1 Supercard. (And I say that as someone who has watched/reviewed every TV/show from 2019 and actually liked pretty much all of Taven’s defences, except the Cobb Best In The World sh*tshow which was hardly his fault)

[EvanKnight]

Booking has been proficient in my view in the sense that things don't come completely out of left field or make absolutely no sense, on a regular basis. ROH maintain a steady track, that generally makes sense within the confines of ROH. Bubba made things worse, and Joey made things worse. Back in the day when they got control Jim Cornette made things worse and Pearce made things worse. AnHonorableMention points out that the MSG show has heavily influenced by others, and I believe that. Delirious, left to his own, doesn't put forward the things that actively make me tune out. That being said there is a definite need for improvement.

Taven winning at MSG is probably the worst move in ROH history, in the top few at the very least without thinking back too hard on it. Especially with the way the honor rumble had gone earlier that night. I remember saying there is no way Taven wins the main now since no one would ever put over two unproven heels in the two key matches on the most important show in company history. Sometimes the title makes the man, sometimes the man makes the title, when it is perfect both the man and the title get elevated, and at the worst both get devalued and I think Taven along with ROH as a whole were hurt by that decision.

Assuming RUSH had to lose the title unexpectedly then (wasn't he gone for a bit after losing the belt the first time?), PCO was probably the best available choice, I can't see anyone else on the December or January cards that was a clear choice better answer (although there are a few that I am sure good be retroactively fantasy booked, especially with the way the title match and PCO after played out).

There hasn't been any well told story in years. Even the whole Foundation thing only is OK because of Gresham being on a roll and the rest of the crew being enjoyable. Story wise the Foundation is not much different than the flop that was Lifeblood, and the whole purification of ROH thing is overly forced and honestly a negative in the current context. ROH fans do not want the Foundation to rid ROH of Brody King and Bandito.

There was a completely fresh and exciting feeling when Marty got the book, and ROH desperately needs to find that for the relaunch. But, them reimagining while recapturing is an incredibly hard mark to hit, especially with no fresh input. I still say, it is possible for them to come out of this better than they have been, it just isn't the most probable outcome.

[Big Red Machine]

As with AHM and BRM above - not sure I’d agree at all with Delirious being a ‘proficient’ booker, particularly as his time in charge has stretched on and on. In particular I think the point that he has been carried by his incredibly talented roster is pertinent. It’s something I’ve said in my review series countless times.

I’m astonished that someone could think that putting the belt on Taven at MSG wasn’t an atrocious idea I must say. Not trying to discredit or belittle anyone if they felt differently - but that isn’t my impression at all. Of the three options, Taven winning was by far the least appropriate result and was absolutely responsible, in part, for the disastrous fan reaction to ROH’s half of G1 Supercard. (And I say that as someone who has watched/reviewed every TV/show from 2019 and actually liked pretty much all of Taven’s defences, except the Cobb Best In The World sh*tshow which was hardly his fault)

I didn't really get why people were so against Taven winning the belt. I think Marty winning would have gotten a bigger pop, sure, but then again, if you're looking at it from an optics standpoint, putting it on Marty and then quickly switching to Taven at a different point would have been a better idea, because the optics were predictably bad for your biggest stage (especially with the Enzo and Cass thing also happening and getting sh*t on).

[Big Red Machine]

Booking has been proficient in my view in the sense that things don't come completely out of left field or make absolutely no sense, on a regular basis. ROH maintain a steady track, that generally makes sense within the confines of ROH. Bubba made things worse, and Joey made things worse. Back in the day when they got control Jim Cornette made things worse and Pearce made things worse. AnHonorableMention points out that the MSG show has heavily influenced by others, and I believe that. Delirious, left to his own, doesn't put forward the things that actively make me tune out. That being said there is a definite need for improvement.

I would argue that things actually did make no sense on a regular basis. Delirious (and Gedo, and to a lesser extent, the AEW crew, although particularly when those guys were in ROH and NJPW and seemingly booking their own stuff) seems to have benefited a lot from fans (especially those who weren't watching all of the shows of the relevant promotion) having seen so much wrestling that they identified the archetype of the story he was trying to tell and basically super-imposing a generic version of that story onto the product instead of looking at the details of what actually happened.

I haven't seen most of Pearce's first two months, which I have heard were rough, but other than that, I thought Pearce did a very good job, and I thought the same of Delirious (and some credit to Cornette, who supposedly was helping both of them from he time he came on) until the Sinclair sale (actually, through September 2011, when it shifts to feeling like mostly Cornette's vision). To say that everyone who came in "made things worse" isn't a fair statement. Yeah, not everyone is as great as Gabe, but I'd put the Pearce-Cornette and then Delirious-Cornette ROH of Final Battle 2009 through September 2011 up there with some of Gabe's better stuff (not as great as Gabe's best, but still quite great) (for what it's worth, I think Steen has said that he, Cabana, Generico, and Corino were the ones mostly booking their feud, though he credited Pearce with giving the freedom to do so).

I also heavily disagree that the track they maintained made sense within the confines of ROH. They constantly paid lip-service to the idea that it did, but it really didn't.

Assuming RUSH had to lose the title unexpectedly then (wasn't he gone for a bit after losing the belt the first time?), PCO was probably the best available choice, I can't see anyone else on the December or January cards that was a clear choice better answer (although there are a few that I am sure good be retroactively fantasy booked, especially with the way the title match and PCO after played out).

He didn't miss any time. He was on the next weekend of shows.

There hasn't been any well told story in years.

And that right there should be all the proof you need that someone is not a competent booker.

Even the whole Foundation thing only is OK because of Gresham being on a roll and the rest of the crew being enjoyable. Story wise the Foundation is not much different than the flop that was Lifeblood, and the whole purification of ROH thing is overly forced and honestly a negative in the current context. ROH fans do not want the Foundation to rid ROH of Brody King and Bandito.

I agree that this was forced, but 99% of that comes down to actions taken taken (or not taken) by booker. For YEARS Delirious had let people trample all over the rules and get cheered for doing so, whether it was Bullet Club and their dumb "TEN BOOTS!" spot, or letting Bully Ray come in and cut promos where he was literally saying "these fans didn't come here to see wrestling. They came here to see a street fight!", and booked in lazy ways where he would rush to gimmick matches instead of putting the focus on less hardcore suplexes, submission, flips, and head-drops that had helped the promotion make its name. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a year or two of that will create a culture among the fans where the idea of ROH as the work-rate place that treats wrestling like a sport and only rarely does f*ck finishes will be lost, and you can't just then take a group of people and make them say "we need to bring the honor back" and have them be babyfaces if there seems to be no desire to see it happen on either the part of the fans or even in kayfabe on the part of the promotion (as evidenced by them just letting f*ck finishes happen and not following up on them... or, outside of kayfabe, it's sh*tty booking to not follow-up on a f*ck finish to build to a resolution).

Even when it was obvious what the issue was (like, say, when Bullet Club runs in and causes a non-finish in a world title PPV main event and beats up a bunch of innocent announcers and crew-members, and the crowd just cheers the whole time) he still insisted on swimming upstream and keeping them as heels for years, and that wasn't his only mistake of this nature, either. Kelly Klein basically stood for everything we were supposed to want the ROH women's division to be, but she was a heel for some reason. If you were going to turn RUSH heel, don't turn Dragon Lee! People just weren't going to boo him.


The only way to make it work at that point would have been with a well-told and nuanced story, but Delirious never got to anything even approaching that. The entirety of these stories was "these guys are cheaters, and these other guys want to stop the cheating." Both with LifeBlood vs. Villain Enterprise, and with the Foundation vs. all of the groups they were feuding with (and, by the way, I still don't understand what the philosophical difference was supposed to be between VLNCE UNLTD and LFI. Both were happy to cheat). If the idea is that our valiant babyfaces want to force the cheating heels out of the company, you have to build towards some sort of mechanism to do that, and Delirious never even tried. LifeBlood and Villain Enterprises just feuded until they had some arbitrarily decided blow-off match, and then they went there separate ways, with LifeBlood no longer concerned that these guys were cheating. And the same thing would have happened with the Foundation vs. VLNCE UNLTD vs. LFI. Don't believe me? Then find me an example of something in that story actually moving forward from the time Brody's crew was introduced back in March until the end. Sure, some belts changed hands, but nothing about the characters or the story ever actually changed or were affected by anything that happened.

(And, but the way, the way to make it work better would have been for LFI's cheating to be something the Foundation just couldn't overcome, and then have some of their guys- maybe Lethal and Rhett- break off and form their own group that was willing to fight fire with fire. Bring Homicide and Brody King in on their side, and bring Deppen and Dickinson in on the younger, more idealistic side of Gresham and Tracy. That's at least a start. Then you have to do something to create a situation where it would be harder for LFI to cheat, like have the Lethal/Rhett group win a title, and then offer to put it up in a match with a stip like "if the Foundation wins, Amy Rose loses her manager's license" or a match where Bestia's career is on the line, and they cheat to win, ridding us of that LFI member, but bringing them into conflict with the Foundation. Meanwhile, you can have Bandido be chasing RUSH and have to go through Dragon Lee first, and he would earn Dragon Lee's respect and Dragon Lee would turn babyface, leaving RUSH with no one to cheat for him).

[McXal]

As with AHM and BRM above - not sure I’d agree at all with Delirious being a ‘proficient’ booker, particularly as his time in charge has stretched on and on. In particular I think the point that he has been carried by his incredibly talented roster is pertinent. It’s something I’ve said in my review series countless times.

I’m astonished that someone could think that putting the belt on Taven at MSG wasn’t an atrocious idea I must say. Not trying to discredit or belittle anyone if they felt differently - but that isn’t my impression at all. Of the three options, Taven winning was by far the least appropriate result and was absolutely responsible, in part, for the disastrous fan reaction to ROH’s half of G1 Supercard. (And I say that as someone who has watched/reviewed every TV/show from 2019 and actually liked pretty much all of Taven’s defences, except the Cobb Best In The World sh*tshow which was hardly his fault)

I didn't really get why people were so against Taven winning the belt. I think Marty winning would have gotten a bigger pop, sure, but then again, if you're looking at it from an optics standpoint, putting it on Marty and then quickly switching to Taven at a different point would have been a better idea, because the optics were predictably bad for your biggest stage (especially with the Enzo and Cass thing also happening and getting sh*t on).

I certainly wasn’t inherently against Taven winning the belt. And his run of matches in 2019 is incredibly commendable, from the outstanding 60-minute match with Lethal at 17th Anniversary, some SUPER under-rated matches in his title reign then sticking around after he should probably have already started taking time off so he could launch the Vincent feud properly (in another under-rated match at Final Battle 2019).

My issue was the timing - and putting the belt on him at G1 Supercard remains an unfathomably bad decision. On the biggest show ROH will ever have, in an iconic New York City venue, they thought they should make the perennially unpopular guy from Boston World Champion? In a building which was sold out because of The Elite. Sure there were other factors, and I’m sure both ROH and New Japan would dispute it - but that building sold out because The Elite and Kenny Omega were star attractions in both companies at the time tickets went on sale. Putting Taven over the only remaining BTE cast member (Scurll) in a building packed with Elite fans, and also over Lethal, who was a respected champion and I guess technically a relatively local guy too, KILLED that crowd.

The subsequent 2020 speaking out allegations against Marty have meant that ROH have an ‘excuse’. It’s somehow ok that they didn’t make Marty champion on this show now because of what was revealed a year later. For me that’s way too convenient. I had (and still have) no issue with making Matt Taven World Champion. But on THAT night in G1 Supercard he shouldn’t have won. It was a disastrous call. Even Lethal retaining would have been better than Taven winning on this specific show. The night when ROH should have been trying to generate as much buzz as possible to prevent haemorrhaging fans to AEW was NOT the night to roll the dice and gamble on ‘project Taven’. The flatlining attendance and interest in ROH after G1 Supercard bares this out (albeit thanks to an astonishing catalogue of errors in MSG by ROH - Taven’s win was hardly the ‘worst’ offence!)

He had some credibility after the Lethal draw. The Ladder Match stipulation means that he wouldn’t have been pinned so still had a legitimate claim for a title rematch - and I would have had little issue with them pulling the trigger on Taven at one of the subsequent shows. Maybe War Of The Worlds? Could they have have even stretched it out to Mass Hysteria so Taven could challenge in front of his home state MA fans?

[AnHonorableMention]

As with AHM and BRM above - not sure I’d agree at all with Delirious being a ‘proficient’ booker, particularly as his time in charge has stretched on and on. In particular I think the point that he has been carried by his incredibly talented roster is pertinent. It’s something I’ve said in my review series countless times.

I’m astonished that someone could think that putting the belt on Taven at MSG wasn’t an atrocious idea I must say. Not trying to discredit or belittle anyone if they felt differently - but that isn’t my impression at all. Of the three options, Taven winning was by far the least appropriate result and was absolutely responsible, in part, for the disastrous fan reaction to ROH’s half of G1 Supercard. (And I say that as someone who has watched/reviewed every TV/show from 2019 and actually liked pretty much all of Taven’s defences, except the Cobb Best In The World sh*tshow which was hardly his fault)

I didn't really get why people were so against Taven winning the belt. I think Marty winning would have gotten a bigger pop, sure, but then again, if you're looking at it from an optics standpoint, putting it on Marty and then quickly switching to Taven at a different point would have been a better idea, because the optics were predictably bad for your biggest stage (especially with the Enzo and Cass thing also happening and getting sh*t on).

And a near 35 minute Bubba Dudley segment in the year 2019. Taven was dumb enough to steal tanning lotion at a WWE tryout and show up in flip flops, he lied about an AEW offer to get more money out of ROH and at best was a mediocre heel that only got over because he had Truth Martini at his side. His matches were ok, in fact some even pretty good, but World Champion in the vein of Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Bryan Danielson, Nigel McGuinness, Jay Lethal, Adam Cole, even that lil fella Austin Aries, I don't see it.

[Montana]

Mediocre heel... i don't think we'd be discussing his championship win; years later; if he was a mediocre heel. If anything; he's a good heel; because the crowd literally hates him. We can debate what type of "heat" he gets; but at least he doesn't try to get himself over; as a face/while being heel.... much like a majority of heels today. Saying he only got over bc of Truth ; is a misleading statement. He seemed just as over post-truth if not more over without.

The other thing; that no one is discussing with Taven in 2019 was his match quality. The people that watched ROH in 2019; enjoyed a majority of his matches. It was the vocal AEW fanbase; that left; didn't give it a chance, and simply says he sucks; because they recall the Taven of years past.

Saying he's not in the vein of of Samoa Joe/Punk/ Danielson, Nigel,... it's been 10 years since those guys exited the company; and it's not like ROH has the 5 Samoa Joe & CM Punk in the back. As for Lethal/Cole; the match quality of Taven's reign was on par with them. Maybe not better; but not noticeably worse either. IF Taven was as bad as you make him out to be; he probably wouldn't have won gold in CMLL and NJPW. He also probably wouldn't have won ROH wrestler of the year in 2019; and won the TV Title, Tag titles, trio's titles; and the top prospect tournament. What else was there for him to do.

As for stealing lotion / flip flops / and lying about an AEW offer; is pretty shitty; but hard to validate these as facts; and not here say.


IF Jay Lethal won; nothing would have changed. I guarantee it. It would have been same ole' Jay Lethal won again... i'm going to go watch AEW because it's new/fresh. They would have been pissed Marty didn't win. We can speculate all day about how things MIGHT have been difficult with Marty as champ. What we DO know; is Marty was on the all the ROH shows; and in a major role all of 2019; and the Casual/AEW tuned out. Not sure how/why a prop belt would have changed things... but maybe the perception would be slightly different. Any option they picked, business would have been down.

[KL_]

.
There was a completely fresh and exciting feeling when Marty got the book, and ROH desperately needs to find that for the relaunch.

Exactly. That's why I sometimes wonder if ROH would be in a different place (even with this pandemic situation) today if there was never a Speaking Out issue with Marty.

[Wavelet Transform]

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There was a completely fresh and exciting feeling when Marty got the book, and ROH desperately needs to find that for the relaunch.

Exactly. That's why I sometimes wonder if ROH would be in a different place (even with this pandemic situation) today if there was never a Speaking Out issue with Marty.

Have thought this as well. The 5 pre-pandemic shows in 2020 had excitement and buzz that had been missing in 2019. Past v. Present, Supercard, and the originally-scheduled Pure Tournament looked even better (seriously, how good is this card: https://prowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/RO ... Honor_2020). I've assumed that was all Marty, but either way, we lost what was looking like a strong rebound year for ROH.

[McXal]

That 2020 Supercard Of Honor line-up is also missing Dragon Lee vs El Phantasmo and Briscoes vs Lethal/Gresh Ladder War which were confirmed as booked on Episode 444 of the TV show (literally the last one before they stopped airing new content and started churning out filler ‘profile’ episodes

[AnHonorableMention]

Mediocre heel... i don't think we'd be discussing his championship win; years later; if he was a mediocre heel. If anything; he's a good heel; because the crowd literally hates him. We can debate what type of "heat" he gets; but at least he doesn't try to get himself over; as a face/while being heel.... much like a majority of heels today. Saying he only got over bc of Truth ; is a misleading statement. He seemed just as over post-truth if not more over without.

The other thing; that no one is discussing with Taven in 2019 was his match quality. The people that watched ROH in 2019; enjoyed a majority of his matches. It was the vocal AEW fanbase; that left; didn't give it a chance, and simply says he sucks; because they recall the Taven of years past.

Saying he's not in the vein of of Samoa Joe/Punk/ Danielson, Nigel,... it's been 10 years since those guys exited the company; and it's not like ROH has the 5 Samoa Joe & CM Punk in the back. As for Lethal/Cole; the match quality of Taven's reign was on par with them. Maybe not better; but not noticeably worse either. IF Taven was as bad as you make him out to be; he probably wouldn't have won gold in CMLL and NJPW. He also probably wouldn't have won ROH wrestler of the year in 2019; and won the TV Title, Tag titles, trio's titles; and the top prospect tournament. What else was there for him to do.

As for stealing lotion / flip flops / and lying about an AEW offer; is pretty shitty; but hard to validate these as facts; and not here say.


IF Jay Lethal won; nothing would have changed. I guarantee it. It would have been same ole' Jay Lethal won again... i'm going to go watch AEW because it's new/fresh. They would have been pissed Marty didn't win. We can speculate all day about how things MIGHT have been difficult with Marty as champ. What we DO know; is Marty was on the all the ROH shows; and in a major role all of 2019; and the Casual/AEW tuned out. Not sure how/why a prop belt would have changed things... but maybe the perception would be slightly different. Any option they picked, business would have been down.

We're discussing the title run because it was the start of the end of a company that survived everything from a pedophile owner to ownership supporting an insurrection leading president to a batch of talent leaving to form another company. Not because the run was good. He was the only one who stayed, and stayed because the other company did not want him. Taven was on the wall of the ROH office as someone not to be booked and Delirious himself said he'd never book the guy who moonsaulted on George the Animal Steele. That comes directly from someone who was on the other side of that conversation. I watched ALL of ROH in 2019 and didn't enjoy or hate his matches. They felt long in some cases and slow. His routine was flat, and as his little cult of weirdos grew so did the lack of interest in his matches. Nobody is watching a show because they aren't giving it a chance to be good.

ROH constantly built itself on the idea the top people would leave. It's how it began in 2002 and continued until they got complacent IE the SBG purchase era. I'd say it's very fair to validate the AEW offer considering who told me about the story and that person's position. The WWE tanning lotion/flip flops story has been reported by many including Mike Johnson and Sean Ross Sapp. I can also verify several ROH roster members at the end of days who were there on the same try out that confirmed. The Matt Taven fan boy/girl army is an interesting one. Certainly very devoted but not devoted enough to support the Taven run.

AEW hadn't run a show yet. Stop using them as a cop out. Perception is reality, it's why WWE is still viewed as the top wrestling company by the general population but people inside the business view them as a place that doesn't serve their audience.

They had a chance to make a star inside of MADISON SQUARE GARDEN instead they wanted the crowning of heel mid carder Matt Taven as ROH champion to be the end of the night. Tone deaf.

[AnHonorableMention]

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There was a completely fresh and exciting feeling when Marty got the book, and ROH desperately needs to find that for the relaunch.

Exactly. That's why I sometimes wonder if ROH would be in a different place (even with this pandemic situation) today if there was never a Speaking Out issue with Marty.

Have thought this as well. The 5 pre-pandemic shows in 2020 had excitement and buzz that had been missing in 2019. Past v. Present, Supercard, and the originally-scheduled Pure Tournament looked even better (seriously, how good is this card: https://prowrestling.fandom.com/wiki/RO ... Honor_2020). I've assumed that was all Marty, but either way, we lost what was looking like a strong rebound year for ROH.

I actually don't care much for that card but strictly based on the talent listed moving pieces around to make something really special was very doable.

[tigermask7.0]

Wonder if in the new era of ROH match-ups like reDRagon vs. American Wolves are possible.

[Big Red Machine]

What we DO know; is Marty was on the all the ROH shows; and in a major role all of 2019; and the Casual/AEW tuned out. Not sure how/why a prop belt would have changed things... but maybe the perception would be slightly different. Any option they picked, business would have been down.

He really wasn't in a prominent position in 2019. He and Villain Enterprises had never-ending do-nothing, go-nowhere feud against LifeBlood that was just them wrestling tag matches on every show (and the occasional curveball of it being a weapons match), and would occasionally defend the six-man tag titles against the thrown-together no-build teams that were the hallmark of that terrible idea of a belt because Delirious couldn't be bothered to put any actual effort into that division). That's all he did. He didn't have a single singles feud, and only had about five singles matches against someone who was above midcard level. That's not being used in a "major roll." That's being wasted.

[AnHonorableMention]

What we DO know; is Marty was on the all the ROH shows; and in a major role all of 2019; and the Casual/AEW tuned out. Not sure how/why a prop belt would have changed things... but maybe the perception would be slightly different. Any option they picked, business would have been down.

He really wasn't in a prominent position in 2019. He and Villain Enterprises had never-ending do-nothing, go-nowhere feud against LifeBlood that was just them wrestling tag matches on every show (and the occasional curveball of it being a weapons match), and would occasionally defend the six-man tag titles against the thrown-together no-build teams that were the hallmark of that terrible idea of a belt because Delirious couldn't be bothered to put any actual effort into that division). That's all he did. He didn't have a single singles feud, and only had about five singles matches against someone who was above midcard level. That's not being used in a "major roll." That's being wasted.

If he was booking, he wasn't booking himself on top. FWIW.

[Montana]

What we DO know; is Marty was on the all the ROH shows; and in a major role all of 2019; and the Casual/AEW tuned out. Not sure how/why a prop belt would have changed things... but maybe the perception would be slightly different. Any option they picked, business would have been down.

He really wasn't in a prominent position in 2019. He and Villain Enterprises had never-ending do-nothing, go-nowhere feud against LifeBlood that was just them wrestling tag matches on every show (and the occasional curveball of it being a weapons match), and would occasionally defend the six-man tag titles against the thrown-together no-build teams that were the hallmark of that terrible idea of a belt because Delirious couldn't be bothered to put any actual effort into that division). That's all he did. He didn't have a single singles feud, and only had about five singles matches against someone who was above midcard level. That's not being used in a "major roll." That's being wasted.

He was the leader of the top faction of the company. Was in the finals of a #1 contender tournament. He beat Jay Lethal, Bandido , Shane Taylor, Joe Hendry in singles matches. Main evented the NWA/ROH Crockett Cup losing to Nick Aldis. Held the Trios belt; and got his faction over. I'd say it was a prominent position. He likely would have had more singles matches, if he wasn't trying to get his faction over as the next bullet club like faction.

That's like saying the bullet club faction in 2018 wasn't in a prominent position because they were in meaningless trios/multi-man matches. They were booked very similarly.

[Montana]

Taven was on the wall of the ROH office as someone not to be booked and Delirious himself said he'd never book the guy who moonsaulted on George the Animal Steele. That comes directly from someone who was on the other side of that conversation.

AEW hadn't run a show yet. Stop using them as a cop out. Perception is reality, it's why WWE is still viewed as the top wrestling company by the general population but people inside the business view them as a place that doesn't serve their audience.

They had a chance to make a star inside of MADISON SQUARE GARDEN instead they wanted the crowning of heel mid carder Matt Taven as ROH champion to be the end of the night. Tone deaf.

No clue what Taven Moonsaulting George Steele outside of ROH , YEARS prior has anything to do with the conversation. People make mistakes; i don't hold it a grudge for years. It's not like George Steel isn't partially to blame for standing there one moment then moving.

AEW ran their first show 6 weeks later after G1 supercard. AEW had WAY more buzz; before even running any shows. It's not a cop-out. It's reality. Could ROH have done more/better. Absolutely... They clearly under-estimated their loyalty of the fanbase; and WAY under-estimated the impact of AEW. They basically were in cruise control for a while. before realizing they had a serious problem. There is a TON ROH could have done differently.

So when you say ROH had a chance to make a STAR at MSG. You mean Marty?? We may be looking at this glass half full/half empty... yes, the majority of fans would have been happy If Marty won; but then what? You could argue Marty was ALREADY a star, if fans think he's ROH saving grace. It's not like attendances would double post G1 if Marty was champ instead of a faction leader. I"m glad ROH gave Marty the book when they did; as that was what truly was needed... but I don't see Marty with the belt changing much to grow the brand back to what it was. As discussed 2 years ago; ROH went with the safer / long term pick; and it pissed people off. It's the argument now vs. then. It's just one wrestler has been banned/cancelled.

ROH did make a star in RUSH at G1 Supercard as well. People didn't want to see that either i guess.

It's not tone deaf when someone has a different opinion, and doesn't agree with you. I'm not quoting irrelevant stuff like Taven moonsaulting George the animal steele in another promotion... or wearing flip flops to a NXT try out.

Long story short; I don't think it mattered that much if Taven or Marty won for the rest of 2019. If the company's foundation was that shaky that one booking decision in one match; would turn people away; there are other problems at hand. The real problem was the booking, their TV presence, leadership, and unwilling to spend money grow the brand. Which AEW seeming had all that figured out. If AEW never formed; and the Elite went to WWE; i assume ROH would have continued their slow/steady growth as the alternative.

[Chrisvegas27]

I cant wait to see roh talent in the undead realm on impact because you know it will happen