Random ROH Thoughts Thread

[monster mafia]

Aj gray vs gresham pure rules for the world ch

https://twitter.com/GCWrestling_/status ... oenNg&s=19

[kovs27]

I'm not sure how AJ will do in the Pure Rules setting but that's awesome that Gresham is fulfilling his promise to continue to defend the title and in Pure Rules matches. I'm excited to see Gresham defend the title on the indys.

[tigermask7.0]

The Ring Of Honor title should definitely travel.
https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2021/ ... the-hills/

Wondering if the Briscoes show up rocking the double gold.

[KL_]

Recently, the Shining Wizards spoke podcast with Vincent. The original plan for him at Final Battle was to have a 1 vs 1 match with Jay Lethal. Of course we know what happened next.

[monster mafia]

poor vincent...i really like the righteous.

[roacheyyy]

Hope Gresham brings the title to Australia

[Wavelet Transform]

Seemingly big episode of the ROH podcast coming on Monday:

www.rohwrestling.com/news/ecks-files-ro ... ng-podcast

[Wavelet Transform]

Rok-C at performance center tryouts.....

[tigermask7.0]

After seeing rok-c live in Baltimore at Final Battle ... you realize how small she is. That being said, respect for her in-ring ability because she makes the middle rope work like it's the top rope. And doesn't look ridiculous whipping off the ropes ... where similar size people might.

[Montana]

Figured i'd share some thoughts on the Joe Koff podcast. It doesn't give many hints; maybe maybe a few subtle comments on the future direction. Mostly Final Battle. Worth a listen though. Spoilers of the podcast below.

The good: Joe Koff genuinely seems to care about his employee's/staff. There's not enough good people in the world; and just from what has been said; he seems like a nice/good guy.

The bad: Joe Koff seems clueless about the wrestling landscape. I think he's smart enough to realize he's not an expert; and more on the business side; BUT seemed very tuned out of the wrestling landscape. I don't know if Hunter is just keeping the ship afloat or what; but it's concerning he's COO. He certainly needs a team around him. Things that surprised me:

(I'm not going to re-listen to quote exactly what he said; but these are the general thoughts he shared)

- He didn't know Rhett Titus was with the company as long as he was. He knew he was with the company since he started in 2011.
- Didn't know about the forbidden door/what it was.
- Didn't know FTR's name's, but thanked them
- Didn't know who Braun Strowman was
- He wasn't involved with the Jay Lethal situation for FB ; like at all. All Hunter.
- Didn't talk about mass-releasing the roster ... not once.
- Kind of aware of Kevin Eck, like asked if he saw the main event at FB; asked if he saw Rhett's title win; asked if he saw the ROH photo; and Kevin's like...yeah i was in. Could just be how he talks; and doesn't want to assume... but like i would hope Kevin Eck would watch Final Battle.

He messed up the timeline for getting their "Live/destination" TV deal; said they were planning from March 2019; and they would air in July 2019. Then blamed COVID; then retracted and said he meant July of 2020. Basically said they hired more staff/production; to get ready for it; and then it never happened. So given the timeline scenarios ; seems off to me. I get he can't say ; business was bad/down in 2019; and they decided not to go that way. It also doesn't take 15 months to prepare to change their live event/taping schedule. As other have mentioned; i'm sure it was discussed; however loosely and nothing close to finalized.

Then he couldn't share much on the future; but more or less; said it was be a new ROH, new era; and to expect the same great action. Couldn't say a lot on it. They weren't in a rush; and would take the time needed to make it right. Seems VERY dedicated/reliant to Hunter. Said they had some "good stuff" lined up for the start of the year; and expect more info to be released in Q1. Also, eluded to that they may have some shows; before the official rebranding/launch. Like some one off shows like Supercard; before a more finalized conception. The new product, would be very fan focused; as said before.

Spoke a bit on Jay Lethal; and said both were said. Joe Koff wouldn't hold anyone back.

Again; reiterated ROH is returning; and not sure why people/media think they are closing. Although, he completely avoiding talking about why they released the whole roster.




So it's nice to hear ROH will definitely be back in some fashion. Little concerned about this re-branding; and as i mentioned when it first went down; i hope they have a mastermind that helping guide this project. It's clearly not Joe/Greg; so i assume it falls on Hunter & team.

[McXal]

It was an interesting listen. Mostly Joe Koff giving evasive, politician-esque non-committal answers. Lots of words, lots of bluster, almost nothing of any real relevance.

The bleating and playing the victim about people writing ROH off came off as INCREDIBLY disingenuous and unlikeable. ‘I never said we were closing’. That is technically true. But they were happy to milk the narrative to sell tickets/Honor Club buys. Or to get AEW to provide videos from CM Punk and Bryan Danielson. And they repeatedly referred to winners possibly being the ‘last champions’ on their own f*cking show. Therefore he was perfectly happy to cash in on that sentiment and the ‘ROH is closing’ narrative when it suited him. Like I said - disingenuous.

As always with Koff, he comes off like a well-intentioned but totally out of touch business man with minimal understanding of what wrestling fans actually want. And completely incapable of giving a straight answer to a direct question. And, as always with the ROH Strong podcast, Kevin Eck is nothing more than a corporate stooge, pedalling the company line/conservative corporate message at all times, to the detriment of providing any meaningful journalistic content.

The only part that REALLY piqued my interest was his discussion of the plan for a plans for live TV. The undeniable rampant success of AEW has made it impossible for even Koff to deny that they got their strategy wrong in 2018/2019 - and it’s interesting to listen to him showing some humility in regards to the mistakes they made.

FWIW it’s worth, his confusion around timelines to when they were working on the live TV show makes me even more convinced that they were in NO WAY thinking about changing anything in the first half of 2019 and genuinely believed their strategy of Taven as champion, the MSG debacle and all the other farcical cock-ups of 2019 would be fine. And it was only when AEW really took off, and ROH was left with a shell of a product which consistently ran shows with fewer fans than they were drawing in 2002 that they were forced to change things and think about a ‘pivot’ to live TV in 2020.

Which pretty much shows how clueless the people running ROH are. After ten years of Joe/Delirious/Sinclair ‘stewardship’ and after all the money and resources pumped into the company, for all the hundreds of thousands of casual fans who supposedly watch the TV show on random local channel #76 at 3am on a Saturday morning, for all the tickets/merch they sold on the back of The Elite and New Japan’s popularity - they have systematically and fundamentally eroded the actual core fanbase who are willing to invest and spend money to actually follow ROH. And judging from Koff’s own words on this podcast, the same team who have overseen that will be in charge of this ‘re-imagining’. Which leads me to think it won’t be any better.

Still, we live in hope. The one thing he seemed willing to give a really definitive answer on is that ROH WOULD be back in some form next year. Given how selective/evasive he is with information on every other answer I guess that is significant. Jury is out on whether that’s significant because there are definite plans to come back, or significant because he needs to ensure maximum leverage for a sale on the IP/tape library to the highest bidder.

[IanRiccaboni]

He messed up the timeline for getting their "Live/destination" TV deal; said they were planning from March 2019; and they would air in July 2019. Then blamed COVID; then retracted and said he meant July of 2020. Basically said they hired more staff/production; to get ready for it; and then it never happened. So given the timeline scenarios ; seems off to me. I get he can't say ; business was bad/down in 2019; and they decided not to go that way. It also doesn't take 15 months to prepare to change their live event/taping schedule. As other have mentioned; i'm sure it was discussed; however loosely and nothing close to finalized.

I think since it's all in the past I may be able to speak to the live TV part.

To be clear about what I know about the live items: July 2020 was the date those that needed to know/make childcare and work arrangements were consistently given since mid 2019, myself included, for whatever is worth. You do need more staff/production/contractors for live so the longer timeline shakes out. Our ducks were in a row as far as I know in March 2020 and a discussion I had to renew and extend during the pandemic reaffirmed we had dates/building(s) to do atleast a few live broadcasts outside of HonorClub.

About Joe, I've grown to really love Joe. Literally thousands of people roll up into Joe's silos and I'm not sure how he even remembers the amount of folks he does. I say that as someone who has about 200 folks roll up to him at my regular job and I am genuinely impressed at times at the recall he has for someone who has met as many people as he has.

Once you've grown to know Joe and he grows to know you, he will fight tooth and nail for you and the things like paid time for missed bookings for births, weddings, etc. come from him.

I know I sound like a brown-noser, and maybe I am, but I really like Joe as a leader.

[McXal]

He messed up the timeline for getting their "Live/destination" TV deal; said they were planning from March 2019; and they would air in July 2019. Then blamed COVID; then retracted and said he meant July of 2020. Basically said they hired more staff/production; to get ready for it; and then it never happened. So given the timeline scenarios ; seems off to me. I get he can't say ; business was bad/down in 2019; and they decided not to go that way. It also doesn't take 15 months to prepare to change their live event/taping schedule. As other have mentioned; i'm sure it was discussed; however loosely and nothing close to finalized.

I think since it's all in the past I may be able to speak to the live TV part.

To be clear about what I know about the live items: July 2020 was the date those that needed to know/make childcare and work arrangements were consistently given since mid 2019, myself included, for whatever is worth. You do need more staff/production/contractors for live so the longer timeline shakes out. Our ducks were in a row as far as I know in March 2020 and a discussion I had to renew and extend during the pandemic reaffirmed we had dates/building(s) to do atleast a few live broadcasts outside of HonorClub.

About Joe, I've grown to really love Joe. Literally thousands of people roll up into Joe's silos and I'm not sure how he even remembers the amount of folks he does. I say that as someone who has about 200 folks roll up to him at my regular job and I am genuinely impressed at times at the recall he has for someone who has met as many people as he has.

Once you've grown to know Joe and he grows to know you, he will fight tooth and nail for you and the things like paid time for missed bookings for births, weddings, etc. come from him.

I know I sound like a brown-noser, and maybe I am, but I really like Joe as a leader.

Thanks for the insight Ian - as I’ve just said in my own post, it’s really interesting to see how things we’re planned to go re live TV before the pandemic harpooned them. It’ll be a ‘what if’ for years to come contemplating what the product would have looked like if Covid hadn’t appeared and ROH had dipped their toe into the weekly live TV market.

And you don’t come off like a brown noser. Being totally up front with you as someone who has supported the product since 2002, some of the messaging that comes from Joe is frustratingly vague and, to be blunt, a little distanced from what at least I perceive to be the realities of being a wrestling fan in 2021. But as I said in my post - it’s never at the expense of coming across as anything less than well-intentioned. The conduct of ROH in 2020 in regards to Covid safety was exemplary. It doesn’t surprise me to hear that Joe had employees back in other areas of welfare and well-being too.

I truly hope we are all back talking about an ROH product in some form next year.

[Montana]

He messed up the timeline for getting their "Live/destination" TV deal; said they were planning from March 2019; and they would air in July 2019. Then blamed COVID; then retracted and said he meant July of 2020. Basically said they hired more staff/production; to get ready for it; and then it never happened. So given the timeline scenarios ; seems off to me. I get he can't say ; business was bad/down in 2019; and they decided not to go that way. It also doesn't take 15 months to prepare to change their live event/taping schedule. As other have mentioned; i'm sure it was discussed; however loosely and nothing close to finalized.

I think since it's all in the past I may be able to speak to the live TV part.

To be clear about what I know about the live items: July 2020 was the date those that needed to know/make childcare and work arrangements were consistently given since mid 2019, myself included, for whatever is worth. You do need more staff/production/contractors for live so the longer timeline shakes out. Our ducks were in a row as far as I know in March 2020 and a discussion I had to renew and extend during the pandemic reaffirmed we had dates/building(s) to do atleast a few live broadcasts outside of HonorClub.

About Joe, I've grown to really love Joe. Literally thousands of people roll up into Joe's silos and I'm not sure how he even remembers the amount of folks he does. I say that as someone who has about 200 folks roll up to him at my regular job and I am genuinely impressed at times at the recall he has for someone who has met as many people as he has.

Once you've grown to know Joe and he grows to know you, he will fight tooth and nail for you and the things like paid time for missed bookings for births, weddings, etc. come from him.

I know I sound like a brown-noser, and maybe I am, but I really like Joe as a leader.

Thanks Ian. It's always appreciated when you lend your insight and opinions.

For the TV piece of it; getting all the logistics in place makes complete sense. I guess as a fan; this could have looked many different ways. live vs. taped... what network; prime time? That's information has been pretty close hold, and rightfully so. Things change, as we saw. Mid 2019 aligns around the time the Sinclair purchased fox sports/bally sports. If the plan was to do it on Bally Sports; not sure why more marketing wasn't put towards the existing show; and/or push for better time slots. Imagine another cable network would have had a deal locked in; if they were months away.

Joe seems like the ideal boss. It's very easy for those in management positions to just be a jerk/asshole because they can; and they have the power. Joe certainly doesn't seem that way; and it's very respectable. Also; not being a "know it all". I do think Joe should be more engaged in the wrestling landscape, and be more transparent overall. I get he with Sinclair; and it's not "HIS" company... but someone has to take the lead; and accept the blame. I didn't get that feeling from the interview. Here nor there; no one is perfect. As fans; what want the best, even if it involves criticism.

Excited for what comes next.

[monster mafia]

man, briscoes vs brody and pco at gcw was nuts.

[AnHonorableMention]

I listened to the Joe Koff pod, and aside from Kevin Eck being a complete shill I felt like Joe for as nice of a guy as has been said by Ian, and in my limited personal interactions as well is as out of touch as any 60-70 something year old man would be with what works in modern wrestling. Quite frankly, I'm not sure Delirious knows either and based on how much schmoozing Joe did it sounds like Joe is deathly afraid of Joe leaving him for somewhere else.

Notable quote: "Jim Cornette was Hunter's protege" obviously that was a slip of the tongue in the middle of a long sentence but I felt it sums up just how out of touch Ring of Honor has been the last few years. You'd never have heard Joe credit AEW if he didn't need them. I mean he never thought All In would be a success until it became one. Lots of this interview was just lip service it felt like. I work in the automotive industry, I know what it's like to have a salesman blow smoke. That's what a lot of this felt like but not in the way that it was designed to con people into believing ROH would right the ship or any sort of deception. But more so this is how he's done his speaking for so long that he just can't find a way to be Joe Koff the person anymore and is in sales mode 24/7. Again, for as critical as I have been of ROH and the product itself as well as the scumbags as Sinclair, I don't think Joe Koff is a bad guy, I do think however he's wounded himself so badly by standing by Delirious as long as he has. If ROH comes back, they need to find a new creative mind be it a pro wrestler or multiples preferably with their fingers on the pulse. They should be reaching out to people who have been around the company as fans since the beginning to find ways to reach those lapsed fans as well as cultivating a new audience. Ring of Honor means a lot to me, and I don't want it to die but with the leadership as is, "re-imagining" Ring of Honor I have zero faith in this succeeding.

[Big Red Machine]

Ring of Honor means a lot to me, and I don't want it to die but with the leadership as is, "re-imagining" Ring of Honor I have zero faith in this succeeding.

I don't think anyone could have said it better.


They have tried to "re-imagine" ROH several times over the past few years (remember every time they told us there would be a new focus on enforcing the rules?) and it always defaulted to what it was within a few months.

[Wavelet Transform]

Viewed over its entirety, ROH has been very successful during Koff's tenure. Business grew enormously from 2012 to 2019, production/camera work/presentation massively improved, ROH expanded its geographic reach, live PPV, Honor Club, MSG, plans for live TV, etc... Koff also tried to right the ship after the Taven catastrophe - signed the most popular guy to a big money deal and made him the booker. No one could have planned for the pandemic and what happened w/ Marty. The effect of both torpedo'd what looked like a great 2020 for ROH; pre-pandemic 2020 shows had good crowds and the cards for shows we didn't get were outstanding. Even if it did lead to the current situation, it's hard to criticize the decision to support workers during the pandemic. Also sounds like Sinclair's larger financial picture is partly responsible, which Koff has no control over.

The criticisms of being out of touch, politician-speak, and not knowing wrestling all seem valid. However, creative seems like the biggest issue ROH has by some distance. We've seen the same problems over and over: Stories don't have a clear end or drag on too long, fuck finishes, failure to elevate new talent, too many wrestlers without programs, etc...

Broad strokes, I believe Koff will continue to improve in his role and learn from mistakes; I have a hard time saying the same for Delirious.

[Wrestlingisback]

It’s a factor that hurts pro wrestling and isn’t talked about enough. People talk about talent clinging to their spots at all costs, but what about those in creative spots. There’s few out there and those that get them lock them down. It’s not just ROH:

Delirious-head Booker since 2010
D’Amore and Jacobs-creative in Impact since 2017
Bauer and MSL- creative in MLW since it’s return in 2017.

Hell, most TV shows go through 2-3 showrunner and writer switches in that time.

[KL_]

The lawsuit brought against Ring of Honor by former ROH Women of Honor Champion Kelly Klein was closed on 11/16, Maryland court records show.
In an 11-page Memorandum Opinion written by United States District Judge Paula Xinis, Xinis agreed with Ring of Honor's arguments that based on the contract Klein signed, arbitration between the two parties should be where the two sides deal with the issues.

https://www.pwinsider.com/article/15393 ... n.html?p=1