Random ROH Thoughts Thread

[The Dragon Saga]

On the backstage interviews, ROH has always been about less talking and more wrestling so that isn't really something that fits into the promotions presentation.

Yeah. But Gabe and Pearce still let the wrestlers cut backstage promos, so I don't see how you can claim that "isn't really something that fits into the promotions presentation."

And what were they producing, a weekly one hour TV show? Three to four PPV's a year? 30+ house shows a year?

No, they produced DVD's. Read the rest.

Plus, Honor Reigns Supreme was a house show. They aren't using a ton of this info in Canon, it's the same as how WWE streams a show from MSG, they have big matches, they'll mention them on TV but their not as important as PPV matches. Their used to build local audiences and that was evident by how they had Aldis promote their return with a promo talking up the Crockett Cup as the Carrabus is a pretty large arena and selling it out with a themed event isn't out of the question, especially when Corgan and Aldis were on local news the next morning promoting it.

Dude... they put the match to determine who would challenge for the ROH World Title on this show on TV. You can't possibly tell me the show isn't "canon."
Your WWE also fails, as WWE only mentions their house shows in localized market promos. These ROH shows are advertised on their national TV show and we are told they will have implications for the wrestlers involved. WWE only ever mentions a house show if there is a title change. Quite frankly, I find the idea of claiming that anything they put on TV, PPV, or Honor Club isn't "canon" to be ridiculous.
[/quote]

I didn't say it wasn't all out of canon. And WWE advertised MSG shows on their weekly TV show, those are house shows, ROH treat these shows as house shows because that is what they are.

And don't start about things being ridiculous, I can pretty much quote anything you say call it ridiculous and continue to tell you to stop watching ROH because you can't get over the fact the promotion has changed, makes more money and isn't some little indie that could anymore that you still yourn for.

[Big Red Machine]

On the backstage interviews, ROH has always been about less talking and more wrestling so that isn't really something that fits into the promotions presentation.

Yeah. But Gabe and Pearce still let the wrestlers cut backstage promos, so I don't see how you can claim that "isn't really something that fits into the promotions presentation."

And what were they producing, a weekly one hour TV show? Three to four PPV's a year? 30+ house shows a year?

No, they produced DVD's. Read the rest.

So what? They have a big video screen and a speaker set that they lug to every show. There is no reason you can't play a pre-taped video.

And, for the record, in 2009 ROH put on almost forty "house shows" as you dismissively call them, plus had a one-hour weekly TV show for most of the year and did three PPVs.

Plus, Honor Reigns Supreme was a house show. They aren't using a ton of this info in Canon, it's the same as how WWE streams a show from MSG, they have big matches, they'll mention them on TV but their not as important as PPV matches. Their used to build local audiences and that was evident by how they had Aldis promote their return with a promo talking up the Crockett Cup as the Carrabus is a pretty large arena and selling it out with a themed event isn't out of the question, especially when Corgan and Aldis were on local news the next morning promoting it.

Dude... they put the match to determine who would challenge for the ROH World Title on this show on TV. You can't possibly tell me the show isn't "canon."
Your WWE also fails, as WWE only mentions their house shows in localized market promos. These ROH shows are advertised on their national TV show and we are told they will have implications for the wrestlers involved. WWE only ever mentions a house show if there is a title change. Quite frankly, I find the idea of claiming that anything they put on TV, PPV, or Honor Club isn't "canon" to be ridiculous.

I didn't say it wasn't all out of canon. And WWE advertised MSG shows on their weekly TV show, those are house shows, ROH treat these shows as house shows because that is what they are.

1. How the hell can you have a show that's partly canon and partly not? If it happens in front of a crowd or airs on TV or is put up on the website, it's canon.

2. WWE does not "advertise MSG shows on their weekly TV shows." They advertise them in the local market during their weekly TV shows, during commercial time. Never once have I heard Michael Cole say "hey, everyone come down to the Garden this Friday to see John Cena defend the WWE Title" while Raw was on the air. Never I have I seen a four-way on WWE TV to determine who will challenge for the IC Title that Saturday night at Barclay's Center. What WWE does is a far cry what ROH did here, which was to put this #1 contendership match on their TV and then go tell everyone all around the world to go buy their streaming service to make sure they watch it.

And don't start about things being ridiculous, I can pretty much quote anything you say call it ridiculous and continue to tell you to stop watching ROH because you can't get over the fact the promotion has changed, makes more money and isn't some little indie that could anymore that you still yourn for.

I will call anything ridiculous that I damn well please. For example, I find it utterly ridiculous that you are telling me that I am wrong for being unhappy that ROH has changed from what it used to be in a discussion that started with you telling someone that backstage interviews "isn't really something that fits into the promotions presentation" because " ROH has always been about less talking and more wrestling."
So promos are a no-go because they supposedly don't fit into ROH's wrestling-focused presentation (even though ROH always did them, even at their most wrestling-focused), but when I call for other concepts that were part of ROH's appeal like intelligent storytelling and a focus on clean finishes I should learn to accept change?

And while we're on the subject...
As I have challenged you to do MANY times and you have yet to ever do so, please explain to me why a style of booking where the results of the "house shows" are used to enhance the storylines by providing illustrative examples of the ideas the TV show is pushing (like a tag team not getting along or someone having momentum via being on a winning streak to set up for a title shot) and a focus on clean finishes is inherently only suited for a "little indie" and could never work for a mainstream wrestling promotion.
If you would like me to provide more details about this booking scheme, please just ask.

[BurningHammer]

I'm sure it's a long shot but I'd love to see Austin Aries return to be Kenny King's partner. It would make complete sense with Kenny's path the past 6 months. What kills the idea is how does that team lose while making Aries happy. I'm sure he wouldn't want to come in just to lose in the second round and have no follow up.

Now this would make the most sense, as King referenced ages ago how he learnt so much from Aries after what happened in their mini feud, in many ways Aries created this Kenny King. Think it would be a great tag team and add another good talent to the roster.

YES!

Also, I'm not sure King & Titus are allowed to team up anymore due to the "losing faction must split up" stipulation of the Seek & Destroy vs. Rebellion blow-off.

Yeah, you could say the same for King and Taylor, though in commentary for Honor Reigns that was never brought up. Just that his tag team partner wasn't on the same page as him. So maybe that story line just doesn't hold up anymore or for tag teams.

[Zhuge1]

Now this would make the most sense, as King referenced ages ago how he learnt so much from Aries after what happened in their mini feud, in many ways Aries created this Kenny King. Think it would be a great tag team and add another good talent to the roster.

YES!

Also, I'm not sure King & Titus are allowed to team up anymore due to the "losing faction must split up" stipulation of the Seek & Destroy vs. Rebellion blow-off.

Yeah, you could say the same for King and Taylor, though in commentary for Honor Reigns that was never brought up. Just that his tag team partner wasn't on the same page as him. So maybe that story line just doesn't hold up anymore or for tag teams.

I doubt any of that matters anymore. Who is even left from Search & Destroy at this point beyond Sabin (now injured) and Gresham (now teaming with Lethal)? Alex Shelley retired, Jay White is in Japan, and Lio Rush is now in WWE.

King is still getting something of a singles push (although less so now that the Bachelor days are behind him) and Titus is on to another new gimmick (Flex Express or whatever). I would think both of those things would need to run their course before ANX could re-form.

[Big Red Machine]

YES!

Also, I'm not sure King & Titus are allowed to team up anymore due to the "losing faction must split up" stipulation of the Seek & Destroy vs. Rebellion blow-off.

Yeah, you could say the same for King and Taylor, though in commentary for Honor Reigns that was never brought up. Just that his tag team partner wasn't on the same page as him. So maybe that story line just doesn't hold up anymore or for tag teams.

I doubt any of that matters anymore. Who is even left from Search & Destroy at this point beyond Sabin (now injured) and Gresham (now teaming with Lethal)? Alex Shelley retired, Jay White is in Japan, and Lio Rush is now in WWE.

Why shouldn't it matter? It was a stipulation that was the major selling point of the match.

It was less than two years ago and was a PPV match. There is no excuse for no one to have caught this and come up with some answer to give the commentary team to say. Something like it only mean that three or more of them can't ever team up again because three is the number that makes it officially a faction and not just a tag team. That took me three seconds to come up with. Why can't the guy who gets paid to think about ROH storylines come up with this?

Honestly, there is no reason for them not to have someone working as a continuity editor. Just take one of the Dojo students and have him/her do it for $50 a week or something.

[BurningHammer]

Why shouldn't it matter? It was a stipulation that was the major selling point of the match.

It was less than two years ago and was a PPV match. There is no excuse for no one to have caught this and come up with some answer to give the commentary team to say. Something like it only mean that three or more of them can't ever team up again because three is the number that makes it officially a faction and not just a tag team. That took me three seconds to come up with. Why can't the guy who gets paid to think about ROH storylines come up with this?

Honestly, there is no reason for them not to have someone working as a continuity editor. Just take one of the Dojo students and have him/her do it for $50 a week or something.

I'd happily do it for free. (Doesn't nudge Ian at all...)

[BurningHammer]

YES!

Also, I'm not sure King & Titus are allowed to team up anymore due to the "losing faction must split up" stipulation of the Seek & Destroy vs. Rebellion blow-off.

Yeah, you could say the same for King and Taylor, though in commentary for Honor Reigns that was never brought up. Just that his tag team partner wasn't on the same page as him. So maybe that story line just doesn't hold up anymore or for tag teams.

I doubt any of that matters anymore. Who is even left from Search & Destroy at this point beyond Sabin (now injured) and Gresham (now teaming with Lethal)? Alex Shelley retired, Jay White is in Japan, and Lio Rush is now in WWE.

King is still getting something of a singles push (although less so now that the Bachelor days are behind him) and Titus is on to another new gimmick (Flex Express or whatever). I would think both of those things would need to run their course before ANX could re-form.

I wish it would matter though, it actually makes story lines matter, no matter how old or small they might be to others.

[famicommander]

In all the commotion recently I missed the news of Chase Owens and Rocky Romero signing NJPW deals.

Glad Rocky isn't going anywhere. He's one of those guys you always read about companies trying to turn into a trainer, but I'm always down to watch him wrestle.

[IanRiccaboni]

Yeah, you could say the same for King and Taylor, though in commentary for Honor Reigns that was never brought up. Just that his tag team partner wasn't on the same page as him. So maybe that story line just doesn't hold up anymore or for tag teams.

I doubt any of that matters anymore. Who is even left from Search & Destroy at this point beyond Sabin (now injured) and Gresham (now teaming with Lethal)? Alex Shelley retired, Jay White is in Japan, and Lio Rush is now in WWE.

King is still getting something of a singles push (although less so now that the Bachelor days are behind him) and Titus is on to another new gimmick (Flex Express or whatever). I would think both of those things would need to run their course before ANX could re-form.

I wish it would matter though, it actually makes story lines matter, no matter how old or small they might be to others.

Peeling back the onion a little bit more: as a commentator, you have limited real estate. When an athlete blows out his knee early in that real estate, your window decreases. In this case, the window slammed shut hard.

[Scottanized]

In all the commotion recently I missed the news of Chase Owens and Rocky Romero signing NJPW deals.

Glad Rocky isn't going anywhere. He's one of those guys you always read about companies trying to turn into a trainer, but I'm always down to watch him wrestle.

Honestly wouldn't mind Owens getting a TV Title reign in ROH

[BurningHammer]

I doubt any of that matters anymore. Who is even left from Search & Destroy at this point beyond Sabin (now injured) and Gresham (now teaming with Lethal)? Alex Shelley retired, Jay White is in Japan, and Lio Rush is now in WWE.

King is still getting something of a singles push (although less so now that the Bachelor days are behind him) and Titus is on to another new gimmick (Flex Express or whatever). I would think both of those things would need to run their course before ANX could re-form.

I wish it would matter though, it actually makes story lines matter, no matter how old or small they might be to others.

Peeling back the onion a little bit more: as a commentator, you have limited real estate. When an athlete blows out his knee early in that real estate, your window decreases. In this case, the window slammed shut hard.

I can completely understand how a situation like that can throw and curtail the mindset during a segment like that, esepcially live.

In my mind it's just about making sure that these things are still in the background no matter how small and aren't forgotten about, if there is one thing in wrestling that is overlooked by promotions in general, it's the memory of the fan. We invest in the product so things attach more redily than other parts of life so little things like that are remembered more often.

[IanRiccaboni]

I wish it would matter though, it actually makes story lines matter, no matter how old or small they might be to others.

Peeling back the onion a little bit more: as a commentator, you have limited real estate. When an athlete blows out his knee early in that real estate, your window decreases. In this case, the window slammed shut hard.

I can completely understand how a situation like that can throw and curtail the mindset during a segment like that, esepcially live.

In my mind it's just about making sure that these things are still in the background no matter how small and aren't forgotten about, if there is one thing in wrestling that is overlooked by promotions in general, it's the memory of the fan. We invest in the product so things attach more redily than other parts of life so little things like that are remembered more often.

Sorry, perhaps I should have been a bit more blunt. The match went three minutes. As an announcer, I always have to prioritize A, B, C, etc. That is probably a C point that I'd often get to if the match was longer. But poor Flip blew out his knee and we ended up with three minutes and some down time to ensure the As and some Bs were covered. It is usually done this way by most, although not as mechanically as described for this very reason, in the event something unexpected happens.

[Zhuge1]

Yeah, you could say the same for King and Taylor, though in commentary for Honor Reigns that was never brought up. Just that his tag team partner wasn't on the same page as him. So maybe that story line just doesn't hold up anymore or for tag teams.

I doubt any of that matters anymore. Who is even left from Search & Destroy at this point beyond Sabin (now injured) and Gresham (now teaming with Lethal)? Alex Shelley retired, Jay White is in Japan, and Lio Rush is now in WWE.

Why shouldn't it matter? It was a stipulation that was the major selling point of the match.

It was less than two years ago and was a PPV match. There is no excuse for no one to have caught this and come up with some answer to give the commentary team to say. Something like it only mean that three or more of them can't ever team up again because three is the number that makes it officially a faction and not just a tag team. That took me three seconds to come up with. Why can't the guy who gets paid to think about ROH storylines come up with this?

Honestly, there is no reason for them not to have someone working as a continuity editor. Just take one of the Dojo students and have him/her do it for $50 a week or something.

I'm not saying it shouldn't, just that I'm not sure it still does. The Cabinet/Rebellion was a thing for a while, and although Caprice has been doing commentary for a while, but I don't recall him referencing his past association with TItus during any of the matches he called featuring the Dawgs. Similarly, in the four corner scramble match at Honor Reigns Supreme, one wouldn't have gotten the impression that Titus or Taylor had previously been in a faction together with the way they dealt with each other. Perhaps I just assumed that it had mostly been forgotten about by now. After all, the past relationship between the Briscoes and Bully Ray seems to have mostly been at least downplayed since they have recently quasi worked together (despite the Briscoes "ending Bully's career").

[Chrisvegas27]

How do you guys feel about sinclair selling roh to a company that is willing to spend money if sinclair doesn't start doing it this year because it feels like their growing but at a snail pace

[BurningHammer]

It depends what you want from the company and how long you want the company to last for.

Right now All Elite has a five year plan or at least that's it's financial investment length so far as we know. In that time will it make enough of a profit both as a touring company, PPV buys and through TV viewing numbers. I don't know if it's possible, to keep such financial backing without the necessary return, unless the Khans will be happy to run it on a loss. In that thinking there are very few owners that will be willing to have a business that runs on a loss and would likely to kill it dead or sell it on again.

Right now Sinclair is a stable owner, that yes does have a rather restrictive investment style in it's programing like ROH, what is benificial is Sinclairs desire to make moves within the broadcast industry and if it does grow how it wants to grow in quite a few areas than ROH will see the benifits. All Elite is likely to push ROH even more now I would imagine, and if it starts to invest not just in talent, but heavily into other parts of the company like presentation, advertising etc then ROH will feel that hugely and grow, the one it can't do though is stop.

Overall the only reason I would want Sinclair to sell is if it starts to push it's politicaly right minded ideas into the product, when that happens I am more than done.

[Chrisvegas27]

I agree with most of this it doesn't help when the young bucks are pretty much trashing the company in away about how much Roh pays talent

[Big Red Machine]

It depends what you want from the company and how long you want the company to last for.

Right now All Elite has a five year plan or at least that's it's financial investment length so far as we know. In that time will it make enough of a profit both as a touring company, PPV buys and through TV viewing numbers. I don't know if it's possible, to keep such financial backing without the necessary return, unless the Khans will be happy to run it on a loss. In that thinking there are very few owners that will be willing to have a business that runs on a loss and would likely to kill it dead or sell it on again.

Right now Sinclair is a stable owner, that yes does have a rather restrictive investment style in it's programing like ROH, what is benificial is Sinclairs desire to make moves within the broadcast industry and if it does grow how it wants to grow in quite a few areas than ROH will see the benifits. All Elite is likely to push ROH even more now I would imagine, and if it starts to invest not just in talent, but heavily into other parts of the company like presentation, advertising etc then ROH will feel that hugely and grow, the one it can't do though is stop.

Overall the only reason I would want Sinclair to sell is if it starts to push it's politicaly right minded ideas into the product, when that happens I am more than done.

This is pretty much a perfect assessment of my feelings as well.

[Chrisvegas27]

I know sinclair wants to get into news and get a sports arena

[monster mafia]

My dream card for 17th anniversary

lethal vs gordon ( world ch)
briscoes vs king / scurll ( tag team ch)
jeff cobb vs pco vs shane taylor ( tv ch)
kingdom vs rush /dragon lee/ volador ( six man ch)
gresham vs zsj ( rematch and maybe for the new pure ch)
kelly klein vs britt baker ( woh ch)
bandido vs kushida
silas young vs mark haskins

well, with the new roh roster...this is mi new card

lethal vs juice ( world ch)
briscoes vs king/pco ( tag team ch)
jeff cobb vs shane taylor vs silas young ( tv ch)
bandido vs gresham
tracy/haskins vs castle/gordon
kelly klein vs ???( six man ch)
kingdom vs rush/ dragon lee/ mistico ( six man ch)
marty vs ??

[The Dragon Saga]

I just remembered why I had you on my ignore list.

So what? They have a big video screen and a speaker set that they lug to every show. There is no reason you can't play a pre-taped video.

And, for the record, in 2009 ROH put on almost forty "house shows" as you dismissively call them, plus had a one-hour weekly TV show for most of the year and did three PPVs.

WWE don't do backstage skits at their house shows. ROH don't do backstage skits at their house shows.

Nobody does backstage skits at house shows. Why? Because their fucking house shows.

1. How the hell can you have a show that's partly canon and partly not? If it happens in front of a crowd or airs on TV or is put up on the website, it's canon.

Last week John Cena dressed in a purple mask, called himself Juan Cena and had a match at a house show. Do you see WWE referencing that he did this? No. But if a title changes hands at a house show, they reference it. When they were doing the Sheamus/Cesaro best of series, they referenced it. When they did Starrcade, they referenced it.

But most of the shows don't matter. Some things are important to sell to the local audience as to why they should come to the show and the rest are just there so the guys can have good matches and entertain the audience. It's what makes a house show a house show, no long backstage interviews or skits, it all happens in the ring where everyone can see it.

2. WWE does not "advertise MSG shows on their weekly TV shows."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ6t_rxj778

So this video that they didn't advertise on RAW that they didn't reference on TV from the house show they did at MSG that they streamed, like how ROH streams there's only happened in a local market. I didn't know London was a local market to New York, suppose it is only a £200 flight, good to know for the future.

From here I'm going to skim through this because I'm bored. I'll remember not to look at your comments again because, well, their not worth reading.

And don't start about things being ridiculous, I can pretty much quote anything you say call it ridiculous and continue to tell you to stop watching ROH because you can't get over the fact the promotion has changed, makes more money and isn't some little indie that could anymore that you still yourn for.

I will call anything ridiculous that I damn well please. For example, I find it utterly ridiculous that you are telling me that I am wrong for being unhappy that ROH has changed from what it used to be in a discussion that started with you telling someone that backstage interviews "isn't really something that fits into the promotions presentation" because " ROH has always been about less talking and more wrestling."
So promos are a no-go because they supposedly don't fit into ROH's wrestling-focused presentation (even though ROH always did them, even at their most wrestling-focused), but when I call for other concepts that were part of ROH's appeal like intelligent storytelling and a focus on clean finishes I should learn to accept change?

And while we're on the subject...
As I have challenged you to do MANY times and you have yet to ever do so, please explain to me why a style of booking where the results of the "house shows" are used to enhance the storylines by providing illustrative examples of the ideas the TV show is pushing (like a tag team not getting along or someone having momentum via being on a winning streak to set up for a title shot) and a focus on clean finishes is inherently only suited for a "little indie" and could never work for a mainstream wrestling promotion.
If you would like me to provide more details about this booking scheme, please just ask.

Do whatever you want. I find it sad that you stick around here bitching non-stop about a show you don't like yet keep watching. It's sad. I've already said it and it goes for anyone else with a similar "begrudged" attitude towards the promotion nowadays too, just stop watching. Go watch something else. Tennis or I don't know, EVOLVE. Gabe still books, go watch whatever it is he does nowadays, but give this a break man.

I could care less what you think or don't think, I wasn't coming in to discuss how you view the booking, I was responding to flat out tell you you're getting worked up about a house show that they streamed. If it's not on TV and it's not on PPV and it's not explicitly referred to as an iPPV than they are house shows. You want Man Up level events every single show? Find a time machine and ask Cary Silkin how much money pandering to the lowest common denomenator of fans was making him.